posted
In an alternate thread a very intriguing question came to light. It is my assumption that most people rarely change their beliefs. In my experience I find that people generally hold onto their beliefs with great effort and furthermore when those beliefs are challenged they are held to even more tightly.
However I was informed that here on Hatrack this is not the case. In fact I [was] told that it happens all of the time. So if it's not too personal an issue for you would you please share any transformation of beliefs you may have experienced while here on Hatrack.
What was your original belief? How strongly did you hold onto that belief? What was the cause for the change? That is, what allowed you to finally see something differently. What is your new belief?
This is weird Tim. I just started a similar thread on Ornery a couple of days ago. Being closeminded is part of being an adult.
Posts: 231 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
If you click on the edit icon, you should be able to move this thread over to the other side. You'll get a lot more of a response if you post it there, as opposed to here, where topics are generally "Discussions About Orson Scott Card".
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:It is my assumption that most people rarely change their beliefs. In my experience I find that people generally hold onto their beliefs with great effort and furthermore when those beliefs are challenged they are held to even more tightly
I would agree with this statement.
However, on the other side, many beliefs are shared and discussed. Many times this is because the originator wants to try to better understand his own beliefs or reconcile those beliefs with other observations. In fact, I do think this happens quite often. This doesn't necessarily mean that people completely reverse their beliefs, but they do revise them so that they aren't contradictory to other beliefs.
I don't think that in any way contradicts your statement. In general people don't very often change their beliefs, but there are a number of people that post threads with that very intent. That is why you might see it happen here more often than usual.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Kent, that is weird! I'm definitely going to read that thread. Thanks for the link.
Thanks starLisa, I'll try to move it if possible.
[ I don't see anyway to change to the other side, I'll just post the topic there and link to it from here I guess. And by other side I'm guessing this means the Books, Films, Food and Culture forum. ]
[ Thank you Papa Janitor for the clean up. This is now the correct thread and location. ]
posted
Sort of duplicate post from the original thread where this came up:
Actually, you were informed that here at Hatrack people question their beliefs all the time.
quote:In my experience people's beliefs are rarely changed and in fact held to more tightly when challenged. I think I'll post a new topic asking for testimony to the transformation of beliefs.
It should be noted that changing ones beliefs is very different than questioning ones beliefs.
One can change ones beliefs without ever questioning them, and one can question ones beliefs without ever changing them.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I would say that my belief that religion is a noxious, destructive force was TOTALLY altered by my first three years on this site... I have a completely different outlook now (though I am still, strictly speaking, a materialist and an atheist).
Posts: 5663 | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
I think love has something to do with it. The compelling instances of belief change I've seen are when someone falls for someone else. Presumably, if its more than just a physical attraction, you are attracted by something else about them, this something else about them is intimitely tied to how they see their role in the world and their work in life, so when someone you love, trust, and respect believes something radically different than you do, I think it'll open you up to change in a profound way.
The best I've seen this played out was in "Nice Work," by David Lodge. I thought the book was flawed in many ways, except this one.
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posted
I don't think beliefs change over time, so much as they are refined. Major life events might cause a massive shift, but mostly the every day life lessons we learn changes ever so slightly our perception of things, and our views on belief change accordingly.
I've spent the last five years or so trying to come to grips with what I believe religiously. I went from Catholic, to athiest, and then settled somewhere in between. It took a few years of scrutiny and living in the world to decide I didn't like organized religion, but that I was still a spiritual person.
I think religious beliefs are the ones that die or change the hardest. I believe women are, on the whole, shallow and fickle. That's a belief that probably won't change until I meet, in person, a woman who believes differently. But that's probably a manifestation of bitterness towards my ex girlfriend
I believe adults are for the most part hipocrits who demand respect from youth without earning it, and then refuse to respect youth in return.
I have a hundred more. Most of them are colored by life experiences, and observations I've made from the people I've met. Any one of them could be challenged or changed under the right circumstances.
For me the hardest beliefs to break are those about national identity. I believe in America and its founding principles, and I think it would be impossible to dissuade me from that belief.
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posted
Dagonee, your right and thanks for brining it to light.
Let's also include anyone who has questioned their belief and what they found as a result of that questioning. What belief did you question? What caused you to question the belief? What was the result? Did you hold the same belief, change it slightly or have a transformation? What now is your new belief?
Posts: 30 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Kent: Being closeminded is part of being an adult.
That's just a really sad way to look at life. However it does explain a lot about a lot of people I know (not so much here, understand, as in real life).
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Being closeminded is part of being an adult.
If one is the type to question ones beliefs, then being "closeminded" in the sense of seldom changing ones beliefs is a predictable state. The longer you've been alive, the longer you've questioned your beliefs. The more you've questioned your beliefs, the less likely a new question is to change them.
This depends on the amount of new information/experience being acquired, of course. The inverse correlation of frequency of change to age could derive from being either questioning or unquestioning.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Slight refinements gradually carried out result in enormous shifts. I know I have gone from being an evangelical Christian as a teen to a radical Marxist agnostic as a college freshman to a moderate atheist when I got married to a neocon neodarwinist when I joined Hatrack to... whatever the hell it is I am now...
Posts: 5663 | Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Asa younger person, I was very staunch in my belief that one should always examine one's beliefs, because the truth does not shrink from the light of reason.
Actually, this was, more or less, an opinion I read in one of C.S. Lewis' books. It effected me deeply, and my life has been the more interesting for it. Heh.
Hatrack, at its best, is a place where people with opposing veiws can express them openly and without rancor. Sometimes, it is a place where these people actually listen to each other and grow to respect each other.
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I question my beliefs all the time. In fact, I can safely say that I doubt there is anyone alive who questions their beliefs more than I do. I'm not really sure though.
Okay, enough frivolity. I enter every discussion with a particular point of view, but I also look for data and reasonable interpretation thereof in order to refine my views. As a result of hanging out here with well-informed people, I have learned some things that have changed my opinions on all sorts of things. Mostly on what I believed other people capable of thinking if they self-identified a certain way. That's an open-mind kind of thing, I think.
In other areas, I've done a complete turn-around in my opinions on things because I've seen the value of another person's argument, or, sometimes, someone has pointed out a glaring inconsistency in my treatment of a particular topic.
I'm not a very good example, though. Except for a few core principles, I hold almost all opinions provisionally. This seems to bother some folks, but it works well for me. It is the way I learned how to do science and it seems to work okay in other areas of life too.
Now, important stuff (like the constancy of love, important things to teach children, and a few others), I'm pretty immovable. I'll listen and incorporate what I can from what others say (especially if they happen to be married or related to me and thus have a greater stake), but otherwise, the core doesn't really change.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I don't think beliefs change over time, so much as they are refined. Major life events might cause a massive shift, but mostly the every day life lessons we learn changes ever so slightly our perception of things, and our views on belief change accordingly.
I think this sums up my take on how / when / and why beliefs change. I don't think they're ever a concrete aspect of ourselves, but some are certainly more entrenched than others.
Gradual changes over time don't seem to be something that's commented on, and only in passing if it's brough up at all. Drastic shifts tend to be remarked upon fairly often, and by many people. I had a whole clusterclot of circumstances heaped upon me that seemed to force such a shift upon me. It's not something I can see all that clearly myself, but this was 4 years ago and I still have people tell me I've changed (laugh less, smile less, get angry less, more quiet, that I'm more 'tempered' and so on.)
Though I probably participate more on Hatrack than any other online community, it ranks second or third in terms of affecting my beliefs. Not a lack of effort on y'all's, just a difference in subject matter.
Posts: 1368 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I came to Hatrack as non-Christian. A week later, I was a Christian.
Obviously, all my beliefs and opinions did not change overnight, but since then, I have constantly been revising what I previously thought in the light of what I now know to be true. And I don't think I'm finished with this either, I think I've just begun.
Posts: 609 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
The only real reason I participate in this forum is because my beliefs get challenged on a daily basis. People here generally overcome their immediate gut reactions to beliefs opposite their own and are able to question, criticize and examine much more evenly than you can find in most places.
The denizens of this forum also represent a huge mix of walks of life, and that helps keep things balanced. The variance in political ideology, theological belief and economic status is astounding - and it keeps the ideas on the forum from stagnating. In any online community with a homogenous population, it's so easy to just get caught up in agreeing with each other that before you know it, you aren't doing your own thinking anymore, or any thinking at all. It just becomes a back-patting fest where everyone holds an identical viewpoint on everything, and your ideas never get challenged. It can be comforting, but it's a great way to turn a human being stale.
When I read threads here on Hatrack, I'm immediately forced to consider several facets of every issue brought up. This lets me challenge my beliefs in a way that keeps me from immediately getting overly defensive: it also lets me challenge the beliefs of others the same way.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Kent: dh, Because of Hatrack?
Not because of Hatrack, but Hatrack was a very significant, even crucial, actor in the transformation, and still is to some extent.
Posts: 609 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: One can change ones beliefs without ever questioning them, and one can question ones beliefs without ever changing them.
I'm like that with dirty underwear.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
When I was younger I was a Seventh Day Adventist, but the religion grew too tight for me, like a snake's skin. So I quit and now I have no religion, but a strong sense of spirituality.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I grew up Catholic and with having an ex-nun as my adopted mom, religion was crammed down my throat. I went to Catholic schools until Grade 10, then I moved to a public school closer to home.
As a teen, attendace at Mass and whatnot dwindled simply because my adopted parents no longer cared to attend church due to the fact that my younger siblings made it impossible to pay attention to services.
I studied Wicca for a few years, but the idea of having no real structure and regimine, was a problem, along with the fact that Wicca was not looked at well in my hometown.
Then in 1992, after being seriously injured at work and coping with the depression that followed, I recieved a visit from Mormon Missionaries. I was Baptized in February of 1993 and attendance went on again off again, due to family issues and attitudes, as well as my health.
Lately, I've wanted to go back to the Church. The chapel is within walking distance to the house, but I have been hesitant because my aunt and uncle are not memebers and are very anti. My aunt is also insiting on 100% participation and the right to 'babysit' when I meet with my hoome and visiting teachers.
My beliefs tied to being a Latter-Day Saint have held through all this, and yes, OSC has helped there too. A big Thank You to him. Posts: 113 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I wonder how many Post-Hatrack LDS Converts (myself included) we have floating around here. I know there's at least a few.
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You forgot David Bowles. It was only for a day, but I'm sure you remember it, Tatiana. Good to see you, DB!
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Lol, Oh that's so true! That was totally memorable since I was completely convinced he was being sincere.
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Me, but then again, not really seeing you don't have to scroll that far to see that.
I think that it is interesting to see that OSC's faith has reached a good number of us. It may have not been intentional,(Just my guess here.) but on some level the missionary just came out.
When I began working on the one work I have in progress, I didn't intend for my beliefs to be part of the book, but low and behold, it happened. I just started writing and when I read over what I had wrote, the Church was part of the story.
Posts: 113 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Honestly, I think it has had the opposite effect on me. I am not trying to be rude, or confronational about it, but the one thing I am sure I am NOT is LDS, and Hatrack has confirmed that more than once.
I respect the people here who are LDS for having faith in their religion, but I have never felt any sort of resonance with it in any of the conversations here at Hatrack at all...it just isn't right for me, I guess.
I do know that I am far more tolerant about other religions, LDS in specific (and religion in general, to be even more honest), since I have learned more about them here on Hatrack, though. The fact that we have so many people from so many faiths represented here at Hatrack is one of the best things about it, IMO. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I have to admit that I don't get the attraction of Mormonism over any other religion. I mean, why haven't more, or an equal, number of people converted to Catholicism or Judaism or Methodist Christianity? All those religions are represented on Hatrack by very fine people.
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, and I know that the question probably won't (or can't?) be answered, but I honestly don't get it.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I had a whole conversion story typed in and almost posted here, that I lost yesterday. It doesn't matter, this is probably not the place for it, anyway. It's enough to say that I'm LDS because of hatrack, and being LDS has changed me greatly for the better.
In fact, I am a different person entirely since I came online, and most of that is due to Hatrack, since this had been my home on the web for 7 or 8 years. Here are some of the ways I changed.
1. Global outlook. Because I now have friends and acquintences scattered across the planet, I don't think of the news in terms of my city, state, country only nowadays. If a huge disaster occurs halfway around the world, nowadays I probably have a pretty good friend who lives in the area, or at least who has close family there. I get to hear first person ordinary-people accounts, like the New Orleans blogger (whom I discoverd from a link on hatrack). The world is now my neighborhood because of hatrack.
2. Amazing people. Some of the people I've met here, I've admired greatly and they have taught me true things (through their posts as well as emails and chats) that I'll never forget. Claudia Therese, Survivor, and Slash the Berzerker are a few of these who come to mind but there are many more.
3. Great Books. Hatrackers and threads have persuaded me to read a huge slew of good books that I would not otherwise have encountered. Chaim Potok, Thomas Mann, Franz Kafka, Goethe, Hermann Hesse, (wow, lots of Germans), Mark Salzman, Lois McMaster Bujold, Octavia Butler (Uncle Orson's doing from the How to Write SF book), and many others. Good stories change you, as you incorporate them into who you are. (Again love is the key to the change. It only happens if you love the book, the characters, the story. Maybe you're onto something here, Irami.)
4. Closest friends and family. Saudade, Bernard, Jaiden, Sasha, Noah, Grisha, BunnV, kaioshin00, my very favoritest people in the whole world, whom I talk to almost every day (except for some of you not enough ... you know who you are... ) and who change me daily and hourly as they teach me by their wonderful examples, things like perserverance, strength, stoicism, joyfulness, kindness, committment, loyalty, cheerfulness, grace, consideration, tact, courtesy, and true character, not to mention all the other cool stuff they teach me and share with me.
I think whoever thinks none change their minds and hearts on Hatrack is totally mistaken. They are probably spot on, though, that nobody changes through argument and contention. Irami has it right when he says people change because of love.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:If one is the type to question ones beliefs, then being "closeminded" in the sense of seldom changing ones beliefs is a predictable state. The longer you've been alive, the longer you've questioned your beliefs. The more you've questioned your beliefs, the less likely a new question is to change them.
I don't think this logic holds true - because there is an infinite number of ways to question your belief. Thus, no matter how much you question your beliefs, there are still just as many ways to question them.
I think the "closedmindedness" of adults is caused by something else, perhaps a natural tendency. But I don't think it is logical, and I don't think it is necessary. I think it must either be possible to be an adult while continuing to keep an open mind, or to avoid ever becoming an adult in at least that one particular way. In fact, I've met people who have seemed to accomplish this, although its hard to tell for sure.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I have to admit that I don't get the attraction of Mormonism over any other religion. I mean, why haven't more, or an equal, number of people converted to Catholicism or Judaism or Methodist Christianity? All those religions are represented on Hatrack by very fine people.
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, and I know that the question probably won't (or can't?) be answered, but I honestly don't get it.
Oh, I can answer! <waves hand wildly>
Short answer: Because it's true.
Expanded answer: Because the testimony of the spirit inside your heart and mind teaches you the truth of it when you ask sincerely in faith, and listen for the reply.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:I don't think this logic holds true - because there is an infinite number of ways to question your belief. Thus, no matter how much you question your beliefs, there are still just as many ways to question them.
But consideration done for one question can be relevant to an infinite number of other questions. And the network of interactions between questions can cover even more.
quote:I think the "closedmindedness" of adults is caused by something else, perhaps a natural tendency. But I don't think it is logical, and I don't think it is necessary. I think it must either be possible to be an adult while continuing to keep an open mind, or to avoid ever becoming an adult in at least that one particular way. In fact, I've met people who have seemed to accomplish this, although its hard to tell for sure.
Are you equating "close-mindedness" with seldom questioning your beliefs or with seldom changing ones beliefs?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Expanded answer: Because the testimony of the spirit inside your heart and mind teaches you the truth of it when you ask sincerely in faith, and listen for the reply.
quote:I have to admit that I don't get the attraction of Mormonism over any other religion. I mean, why haven't more, or an equal, number of people converted to Catholicism or Judaism or Methodist Christianity? All those religions are represented on Hatrack by very fine people.
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, and I know that the question probably won't (or can't?) be answered, but I honestly don't get it.
I think it's because few religions mission as actively in the U.S. as LDS do.
The Catholic Church gained a little less than 5 million people through baptisms for people over the age of 7 in 1997 (most Catholics are baptized as infants, so most of this almost 5 million represent conversions). In the U.S., there were about 150,000 adult converts to Catholicism that year.
I believe the numbers I read for Mormon conversions worldwide were 300,000 or so. I'm not sure how that breaks down domestically.
The number of converts per existing member are much higher for Mormons than Catholics, and their mission work in the U.S. is far more visible. Plus, there are more Mormons here than would proportionally be present if the board reflected the demographics of the country as a whole.
That may be why you hear about more Mormon conversions than others.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Slightly more expanded answer: There are truths that you know without anyone teaching you, things that are just axioms that we never question, (or if we philosophically intellectually question them sometimes, we don't REALLY question them in the sense that we might ever really act as if they aren't true).
I'll give some examples. 1) That other people are people the same as ourselves, that they have some sort of feelings and internal life, that they feel pain when they injure their bodies, etc. This is not supported by the observable evidence very well at all. After all, my nose appears to me as a pinkish blurry semi-transparent blob on the left and right of my visual field. Your nose is perfectly solid and you only have one of them. I have access to my own thoughts, but yours are closed to me, etc. But something in my makeup tells me that acting as though you're the same sort of being as me is true and right. It was not something I ever learned or decided.
2) That the universe really exists, and isn't just an illusion, or a meaningless kaleidoscope of raw sensory impressions. That we ourselves exist. That there's some sort of objective reality outside my head, that I may have imperfect knowledge of, but it really exists. There's something real out there that I'm interacting with.
3) That this body is mine, it belongs to me, these arms and legs and so on are part of me. People with damage to certain brain areas can lose this sense about one or more limbs, and they will try to push their own legs out of bed, saying stuff like "somebody's leg is in my bed". So the knowledge that your limbs are your own is not something you ever learn. It's hardwired, and the wiring can sometimes go wrong.
4) There are many more things like that, but you get the idea. I'm talking about knowledge that never has to be learned and is almost never seriously questioned. Someone (Kant?) called this stuff "a priori" knowlege.
The knowledge that the spirit brings when you ask sincerely in faith and listen for the answer is knowledge like this. It's a much truer sort of truth than secondary knowledge like how to add 5 and 5, or what I had for breakfast today (oops, nothing yet, I need to eat! ).
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
While I appreciate your considered reply, Dagonee, I was speaking of all the people on Hatrack who had converted. Sorry I wasn't clear.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone converted to anything other than LDS since they've been here?
For myself, as I have stated before, my stay at Hatrack has taught me that there is no such thing as religion, really. Only beliefs.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I "converted" to Catholicism since I was here the first time although my religious beliefs did not really change.
In a non-religious way I went from mostly voting as an old school (pre-Gingrich) republican to being and active liberal Democrat.
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I thought both Mack and T_Smith were taking a time out from belonging to any kind of organized religion? Or something. They really haven't said, and I really don't want to pry, as I imagine it might be a tender issue.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Wow, that's kind of interesting, km, as you hear more often about people going in the other direction, liberal to conservative. What made you change your views, if you wouldn't mind me asking?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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