posted
I should have played the Clarinet, nobody goes up to a Clarinetist and goes: Do you know rhapsody in Blue????
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Very Very high. Especially if you read learn it with tabs.
Sorry DB, I was totally wiped after all the fiery debate earlier in the thread. I might have some things to talk about though.
Human, I have been working this month on a Bb Clarinet duet, which will (maybe) go as a part of my Guitar Quartet and Violin ensemble peice this quarter. Have you ever encountered an effective method of blending guitar with Clarinet or violin with Clarinet? This is a challenge I am interested in exploring. I think that a guitar quartet (3 six string and 1 seven string guitars) could be balanced properly with one clarinet, or perhaps all the istruments could be brought into a very well defined high counterpoint passage so that the effect is not lost under the blaring Clarinets?
Any tips on ensemble issues with the Clarinet? Any tips about writing for clarinet? (other than transposing, I got that one already).
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"Have you ever encountered an effective method of blending guitar with Clarinet or violin with Clarinet ... perhaps all the instruments could be brought into a very well defined high counterpoint passage so that the effect is not lost under the blaring Clarinets?"
Blaring?... You must have heard some bad clarinetists! Ok, honestly, I'm not too fond of the clarinet myself (which is really ironic that I play it, don't ask me, I don't know how I got here).
Anyway, to answer your question. I'm not sure how to answer really. It depends on what you want. I think you want like a classical sound. That should be fairly easy. I've heard a guitar with tape, that is recorded "sound effects" sort of thing and it went off well. You have to pick qualities in each instrument that compliment the other.
Plucked strings go well with staccato clarinet. Clarinet trill would go with violin trill and I'm not sure how a guitar would compliment that. Clarinet and violin can both do long sustained notes that can increase in intensity. I'm not sure how a guitar would compliment that. Violin can play multiple notes at the same time, which has a very different effect than a guitar chord, and the clarinet is odd one out there. All 3 can do arpeggios. Etc.
"Any tips on ensemble issues with the Clarinet? Any tips about writing for clarinet? (other than transposing, I got that one already)"
I can't think about any ensemble issues. Except it depends on the player. I knew a clarinetist who could do anything. But he was rare...
Writing for clarinet? Be careful of the "break". In the key of B-flat (the key of the clarinet), the break occurs between B-flat and B-natural above middle C. Inexperienced players have hell with the break. Don't cross it lightheartedly (G A B-flat B C D and back down over and over--the clarinetist will likely wap you over the head with his clarinet). It is possible to have a B-flat B-natural or trill, there are special keys for that. Everything else is fine.
But don't be afraid of the break, crossing the break is well practiced precisely because it is difficult. Just know that by crossing it often, you are introducing potential performance mistakes with less skilled players.
Other tips? Clarinet has a huge range, almost 4 for really good players (in key of B-flat: from E below middle c to c three octaves above middle c). Use the low register to your advantage. It sounds very gorgeous. The clarinet range is comparable to the cello, and I've often played cello parts of trio's/quartets/solos. The upper register can be blaring, especially the very high notes. But they can be pleasant.
Clarinets can make huge leaps. One of my funnest exercises was to play major 7ths up (f-flat, e-flat, d, c-sharp, b-sharp). That one is actually really hard, but e to e to e to e is a lot easier. In fact, I think it is easier to go from the bottom note up 3 octaves to the c 2 octaves above middle than it is to cross the break, it is that easy.
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Perhaps a sustained Low melody in the clarinet part, with more Pizzacoto or plain stoccato high guitar melodies? Either that or a more pearcing and faster Clarinet part in a higher range, over fuller guitar textures like Boroquish Bass progressions? Hmmm.
I have been warned against combining Clarinet with strings, but I would really like this to work, I will have to do some serious considering.
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posted
I wrote a song with a low "petal" (like what they do on the organ in Baroque music a lot) clarinet note with a piano above it plaing melody. I thought it would work, and it didn't. So no matter what you do, it helps to 1) not put a ton of time into something you are unsure how it will sound and 2) get someone to play something you are not sure how it will sound before you put a lot of time into it and cement the music.
I've learned with my work in animation that when you invest a lot of time in something, if it turns out poorly, you tend not to care because you HAVE to care because otherwise you wasted all your time, and you are proud you got at least what you got. But because it was poor, that other people treat it badly and it makes you really bitter. So moral is don't invest a lot of time in something you aren't sure is quality, otherwise the payoff will hurt you.
Do what you need to do to make sure the quality is good enough. Often that means making core changes, like, not writing for clarinet and guitar. For example, in my animation work, it meant I had to quit trying to make certain types of animations until I had done other work to prepare me more so that I didn't have to invest as much time as when I first started.
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This is Solid advice once again Human. It speaks to me on a very fundamental level.
I actually tend to have a problem in this regard as many do. When I was in Highschool, (get ready for a little arrogance, sorry), I used to write English essays that got used as examples in class most of the time because they were so much better than the grade level. This however, has changed, and though my writing is still usually better than other students, my ideas are less frequently extraordinary.
In music I CAME IN under the grade level, and spend a good deal of my time trying to keep up. It was different in a Highschool where the general expectations put me easily in a top position intellectually, because now I am at a College where everybody had that experience, and some are smarter. (Ok not EVERYBODY, but many more).
I have as a result taken a more liberal attitude towards the fruit of my labor, I am more likely to Completely rewrite something that sucks, and whenever I do, without fail, I recieve a better grade for the work than I feel I deserve.
This is a great reminder about the difference between what is important to you and what is important to everybody else. Thanks!
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"I have as a result taken a more liberal attitude towards the fruit of my labor, I am more likely to Completely rewrite something that sucks, and whenever I do, without fail, I recieve a better grade for the work than I feel I deserve."
I heard that is the way to do anything really well, whether it be music, school papers, etc. Write it once. Throw it away then re-write it. The second copy will be much better.
Wish we all had time for that though. I usually just go with quantity. Write enough things and eventually they start getting better....
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I wonder. Most of my compositions are always in a constant state of revision. I don't release them until I'm happy with them and I'm rarely happy with them. I’ve got tones lying around that I can’t finish. Would scraping them and rewriting them really help? So do you usually throw out the musical ideas or do you take the old ones and reuse them?
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Steev--Don't throw nuttin' away!! I have a couple of boxes with all kinds of stuff: scraps of paper with staves scribbled on them to full sheets of orchestra-staved ms. I occasionally use stuff from the boxes. Save it all!!
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Regarding OSC's latest article about "academic" music:
OSC really hit it home for me. He outlined much of what caused my disenchantment with my academic carrier in music. I just happen to appreciate atonal music but I'm not inspired by it. I have loads of tonal music in me that will eventually see the light of day.
Thank you OSC, you've encouraged me to give it another go.
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quote:Originally posted by Steev: I wonder. Most of my compositions are always in a constant state of revision. I don't release them until I'm happy with them and I'm rarely happy with them. I’ve got tones lying around that I can’t finish. Would scraping them and rewriting them really help? So do you usually throw out the musical ideas or do you take the old ones and reuse them?
I'll have to see that article by OSC. My process involves completing a single idea in as complete a way as possible. Then I show it to someone who is smarter than me, ussualy a comp. professor or a composer i know. We talk about it, I make notes, I write in their ideas as alternatives, I take the thing home and I start on a new sheet of paper, writing in the revised Idea, and adding in new stuff when it hits, INVARIABLY the result is a major improvement.
The biggest thing that helps is the WISE input. I take my work to people with more experience, who I know will a)not rewrite my work, by still talk about the flaws b)not try to be my friend and say its wonderful c)understand that I intend to rework the idea and follow up, which I always do.
So yes, show your work to someone smarter than you (if they are available) and LISTEN TO THEM! The biggest problem with composers/writers (and I have heard this from many professionals in the field) is they don't have the courage or the will to admit the flaws in their work, and do serious revisions which remove flaws. Just because something came from your own hands doesn't mean its any good, some of it is, most probably isn't yet. Of all the work I do, maybe 10 percent ends up in the hands of a performer, and I am never satisfied at the result.
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I had a really bad experience with all but one of my college professors in that they would constantly criticize without any reason and basically try to rewrite it. Many of them were so entrenched in the study of certain styles and forms that anything outside that was akin to heresy it was very discouraging.
The one professor that was helpful and offered many good insights and inspiration I no longer have access to as I haven't seen him in 20 years and lives 2000 miles away, at least I think he does as I have no idea where he would be today.
Basically I'm kind of writing in a black hole.
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Yah, sucks to hear your experience steev, this is a common feeling among many music students, and a common mistake of some professors. Nothing worse than an unknown composer trying to tell YOU how to write your peice.
On the Other Hand: Your perception of them rewriting your peice probably has alot to do with how you feel and react towards your own music. What I mean is, you many not have then had the courage or the self-perspective to realize your mistakes and react with more grace to criticism. Often the less confident you are, the more defensive you will feel, so that an insensitive professor will easily hurt your pride by suggesting major revisions.
I get alot of advice which I ask for, and that advice I take to heart much more than that which is unsolicited, which means I come into a meeting with another composer with my ears and eyes more open to their views. It is often SO easy for someone else to tell you what is wrong with your peice, and it may be discouraging, but if you have the proper mindset it should also be HELPFULL as well.
Can't tell you how many people have brought work to me and asked me about it, then completely failed to listen to a single peice of advice I gave. My advice might not have been what they wanted to hear, but I am one of the people who will hear the end result. Often these fellow students get caught up in the popular "lone ranger" composer self image, where they are convinced of their genius, and need to be misunderstood, in order to make their work more valuable in some kind of moralistic game.
I try never to get atached to an idea when I hear suggestions to improve it; the fact that a more experienced person suggested something else, tells me that the peice will not satisfy, and needs at least to be changed in some way.
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It's quite possible. I didn't have a very thick skin in those days and any small inkling of courage and self-perspective that I had would have been beaten out of me by the sheer lack of acceptance of anything I was doing at the time.
But, like I mentioned before, I did have one professor who actually helped provide insight into my mistakes and could help me understand why certain things did or didn't work. He actually offered suggestions that made things better and I never felt like he was rewriting my composition. In reality he was rewriting them but it didn't feel that way and sometimes they were major rewrites. However, all of the others would only say that whatever it was I was trying to do would never really matter in the end. They didn't ever offer alternatives other than to suggest that I should put aside composition and consider working toward a teaching degree instead. In fact one professor in particular, after listening to one of my compositions, simply said to me, "That's not very good." When I asked why he couldn't offer any insight as to why and then ushered me from his office so that he could torment the next student waiting out in the hall.
The more I think about it the more I realized that many of them were probably just as disillusioned and frustrated because they were taught that their compositions didn't matter either. Many of them outright said that they didn't bother writing music themselves, and these were the professors that were teaching the compositions classes. Now I learned quickly that I would most likely never get any helpful advice from them. I knew how they felt from their lectures in the classroom as well as their evaluations from the composition recitals. I wasn't the only one they would frustrate; I think I just got sick of it quicker.
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I play clarinet, and I had a great deal of fun "jamming" with my son playing guitar.
Railroad Earth, a funky bluegrass-rock band, uses a clarinet in some songs beautifully.
The thing I enjoy about music these days is the way different styles are blended together. I hear violin/fiddle in rock more and more. I love it.
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Yes, these types exist, I am also an English major, and see these stagnant academic types on that side of the university most often. What horrible irony that these washouts were teaching you, and encouraging you to wash out just like them.
I am very lucky to be a student at a particularly vibrant and new Music department, where the pool of music students has increased 10 fold in the last 5 years, and we have new facilities, new teachers, and great guest performers. Not all are so lucky though . The most important thing is to have teachers who are teaching you to SUCEED! At least you were wise enough to know how valuable their opinions really were!
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I just read OSC's review of academic music. I knew there was a reason I liked him!
(did you know there was a max of 8 smilies? I had something like 20 rofl's, but it wouldn't let me put them all in...)
(on day I will have to post the piece I'm working on currently waiting to be finished...(which has major flaws I'm not sure how to fix and I bet you guys could help!))
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So, it is funny to publicly humiliate a person who shares their music with you?
I did not get "funny" from that article, sorry, I got "self-satisfied prig trying to pretend that he is making fun of a self-satisfied prig."
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For two, I studied 5 years of academic composition and fully agree with OSC's comments and love hearing someone else saying what I decided. Sorry it upsets you.
For what it is worth, in my 5th year, I began to "enjoy" atonal music, if you can call "enjoyable" getting headaches (yes I did and still do get headaches listening to atonal music). But I somehow found a way to enjoy it and I probably still could if I listened to it. (It was one of the big clues it was time to bail and do something else. Like OSC said, if I can't write music that nobody I know would like (except the profs), why do it?)
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Yes Human, I -somewhat- enjoyed that article, but really felt it was an unreasonably general attack on Academia.
His statments about what "academic" music is and isn't, though I'll concede whatever definition he wants to use for his own purposes, is nevertheless too broad and dismissive.
The problem with OSC's style of discourse is that he is basically saying things like: Since I am a regular guy, and I don't find it enjoyable, therefore regular people will never be into this. Not only that, but since you ACADEMICS aren't regular people, you can't understand what regular people like, and you exclude them by purposely liking things they don't. There is no logical response because his statment is couched in such a way that ANY reply from the target will be an affirmation of his point, either the Adamics will say; "HOW DARE YOU SIR!!!" or they will go "yah, your right." Either way they can't reasonably argue, because he is using the "you don't understand where I am coming from," argument, to talk about a group of people HE doesn't understand. How tedious this game has become for me lately.
It's kinda like you said Human, point is, OSC never spent 5 years in music banging away at the repertoire and listening to COUNTLESS hours of recitals, Cds, lectures, etc. Given all that, how can anybody possibly feel the same way about music. So we academics shouldn't be seen as less valid because we're "out of touch" with the public. We're so in touch with music that we want and need to hear things in a new and different way.
Atonal music actually DOESN"T sound bad to the people who compose it, and to accuse these people of "throwing fruit at the audience," is laughably dismisive and pretty insulting. After all, composers are no different in mentality than other artists. If we don't like OSC's book, we don't accuse him of attempting to attack the public with crappy sci-fi. Now I am all kermugenny over this!!! Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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While I have never truly enjoyed "listening" to atonal music, I get really excited as a theorist when I analyze it, especially 12 tone. It sort of gets me thinking as a mathmatician AND a musician. Most of the people that I have associated with (musically speaking, that is) over the last 35 years really do not appreciate OR understand music that does not fit into their own personal little pigeonholes reserved for musical things. Music appreciation classes in college were designed to help intellectuals (that is, college students) to become somewhat more familiar with the so-called "classical" forms of musical expression.
I found when teaching courses like this that so many people were so ill-prepared in this arena that they had incredible difficulty trying to "catch up" with the average student who had played piano for several years or had been in high school band/orchestra. Many people do recognize a few things (the main theme from Beethoven's 5th or his "Moonlight Sonata," the famous bass line in the accompaniment to Schubert's "Erlkonig," or the opening strains of Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nactmusik," for example) from the "classical" literature, but many times this is about all. Evenyually they do seem to develope a taste for certain periods. The Baroque and Classical are what I seem to remember as their preferences. Not too many got excited about 20th century forms though.
Where do I find the article by OSC?
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quote:His statments about what "academic" music is and isn't, though I'll concede whatever definition he wants to use for his own purposes, is nevertheless too broad and dismissive.
Is there a University that teaches something besides atonal? I wouldn't know because I only know the one I went to. And you either wrote atonal or they didn't work with you.
quote:The problem with OSC's style of discourse is that he is basically saying things like: Since I am a regular guy, and I don't find it enjoyable, therefore regular people will never be into this. Not only that, but since you ACADEMICS aren't regular people, you can't understand what regular people like, and you exclude them by purposely liking things they don't. There is no logical response because his statment is couched in such a way that ANY reply from the target will be an affirmation of his point, either the Adamics will say; "HOW DARE YOU SIR!!!" or they will go "yah, your right." Either way they can't reasonably argue, because he is using the "you don't understand where I am coming from," argument, to talk about a group of people HE doesn't understand. How tedious this game has become for me lately.
The way I interpret his article is he is saying, "as long as you write that music, what your words are hardly even matters." So I would agree that he isn't leaving room for a reply from them.
quote:It's kinda like you said Human, point is, OSC never spent 5 years in music banging away at the repertoire and listening to COUNTLESS hours of recitals, Cds, lectures, etc. Given all that, how can anybody possibly feel the same way about music. So we academics shouldn't be seen as less valid because we're "out of touch" with the public. We're so in touch with music that we want and need to hear things in a new and different way.
OSC's brother, Arlen Card, is a composer (day job is lawyer), so Card isn't just a bystander.
And Card himself is heavily involved in music. Search here for "How important is music to you in your life? "
And in fact, I find it much more enjoyable to work with people who haven't been to music school, because then they still enjoy tonal music, and it is easier for me to drop my guard and enjoy it too in those cases.
quote:Atonal music actually DOESN"T sound bad to the people who compose it
I know. I reluctanltly wrote 2 atonal works, and by the time I started my 3rd, I was actually very excited in it. Which, as I said, was my sign that I needed to bail, because nobody I knew (except the profs) would like it, so what was the point? I didn't want to be a high and mighty prof.
Actually, I kidded myself that I could become one of them and use my influence to change things. But you know what? Since I quit, I haven't been able to hardly enjoy *any* music. The pop music from when I was a kid is just about it. It has been 5 years, and I'm getting better. I can listen to classical music, but it isn't as enjoyable as it was before. And writing tonal stuff is like pulling teeth as it is so "primitive".
In other words, I started music school because music inspired me so much, and when I finished, nothing inspires me. I think OSC even said something like this in his article.
quote:and to accuse these people of "throwing fruit at the audience," is laughably dismisive and pretty insulting.
I came to this conclusion all by myself way before I read the article. But it isn't that unique. Every field does it. You wouldn't believe what some computer support personal say about and do to the users they support. So I wouldn't think that just because composers do it, it makes them any worse than anyone else.
But I think the point is that current composers aren't creating the next revolutionary music that is going to inspire audiences to higher thinking and social evolution, which is what I think many modern composers think they are doing. One even told me as much.
quote:Now I am all kermugenny over this!!!
Eek. Card seems to really piss people off. If it helps, he hates Apple computer, and I swear by Apple, and I know he is wrong about Apple. So I take what he says with a grain of salt.
I really wished I wasn't so messed up by my music education. I don't think other people get as messed up as me. My personal life was falling to pieces around me when I was a student. I imagine if my life was more stable, I probably could have kept going to grad school and finished and still maintained my original feelings about music.
Even still, I am friends with my old profs and I respect what they do greatly. They aren't dumb people. But I don't think they are doing much public good. But who is? So I don't really hold it against them. I just don't buy the story I hear sometimes that the work they are doing will benifit mankind forever.
But I can't listen to their music either, because it gives me headaches. It didn't at first, but in my last year, I started getting headaches and I still get them... Probably stress related as I get headaches at many other times too.
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Unfortunately the book is out of print but the author of the essay gives us the gist of it. =)
Just goes to show how old this issue of "academic music" really is.
And one of my best friends is actually studying music at in college--I knew him in high school and he's always had an interest in atonal music while praising Chopin and Berlioz as his favorite composers. Yet in his compositions he's atonal and alienating and unpleasant--I don't have the heart to tell him so I just say "interesting..."
Composers today...the "interesting" ones...seem more interested in vidication by history than actually communicating with their audiences. Henry Pleasants says it best here:
quote: [T]he popular music audience... is amply supplied with a down-to-earth music of its own which the serious composer, by definition, cannot write, and with which his own product cannot compete, if only because its down-to-earthiness has an intellectual cast neither charming nor intelligible to the popular audience. In short, the composer would like to please, but is not pleased to write what pleases society, or at least that part of society which comprises his audience. Society would like to please the composer, whom it regards as an ornament and as a comforting guarantee of cultural continuity, but it is not pleased by what he writes. The situation is tolerated only because both composer and society have been persuaded to believe that this is the way it has always been.
Society's concept of the composer-audience relationship is as distorted as the composer's. It imagines the present situation to be a replica of what has been happening for generation after generation for a century and a half -- which it isn't -- and assumes that the next generation will be listening to this music with rapture -- which it won't.
posted
What I grow tired of is something OSC wrote about in november, if anyone recalls, where he RAILED against people making conclusions about him because he is mormon, or conservative, or anti-gay marriage, etc.
For me, I tell you guys I am pursuing composition, and everybody assumes I am going to be wasting my time composing something no-one will want to hear. Well, the word A-tonal isn't fair to start with. Many composers now refer to their work as non-tonal. As it is not a REACTION to the tonal system but an aside from it.
Besides that, many composers, especially in California, have become interested in other tonal possibilities. Fact is, the Well-Tempered system of tuning is limiting to the expression of melodies not coming from western european traditions. Many now divide the octave into 56 natural tones, or divide each whole step into Three third steps instead of two halves. This provides everyone with a different way of the looking at the compromise that is diatonic Harmony. Look at the music written before purcell and Bach, you'll see alot of stuff that western theory would now label, unnaceptable or non-tonal.
Point is, we get so busy labeling eachother that we don't want to explore new mediums. We shouldn't beat up on new styles of composition, because Believe me when I say, if we give up now, you can forget about our appreciation of music in 100 years, or even 50, it will be more abysmal than it already is.
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Orincoro--In my last post I actually started to wonder how my ranting might effect a student, namely you. You wont be wasting your time. You WILL learn how to write music. I know I learned, ala I can see people struggle with things that are reflex to me.
I'm just bitter over how it turned out. But I'm happy also because I know eventually I'll get over it all and I'll get to do what I originally set out to do, which is write the music that inspires me.
So I don't want you to think you'll be wasting your time.
And about the alternate tunings. The thing that I think matters most is the communication between audience and composer. You can use anything to do that, even if it is recorded traffic noises, as long as it communicates.
Card knows this too because he is a master communicator. Have you heard him talk in person? He knows how to capture a person's attention and demand they listen to him. That is what communication is about. If you can do that with music, you can quit school now because you are there.
So don't think you are wasting your time learning atonal (or non-tonal) music. You can still learn the art of navigating notes on paper and turning them into communication between you and your audience. You do have a captive audience (of profs). Just beware they might praise you for your choice of style rather than your ability to communicate. So use your time as a student trying to learn how to communicate rather than exploring style.
Style will always be in flux and isn't that important anyway. In fact, it is the composers who know how to communicate who usually set the styles of the future. And historians look back at the style in incorrectly credit the style with the success of the composer. Look at Stravinsky. Geez, so many styles. Some were certainly more popular than others, but they all communicate and because of that, Stravinsky is correctly labeled a master.
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Human 2.0 is right. It may take awhile but you will get over it eventually. I'm going on close to 20 years and I'm just beginning to really get over it.
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quote:Originally posted by human_2.0: Card knows this too because he is a master communicator. Have you heard him talk in person? He knows how to capture a person's attention and demand they listen to him. That is what communication is about. If you can do that with music, you can quit school now because you are there.
((Human))
Your right. Its all about communicating effectively. Its funny what you said about style. Very true. Think of the rancorous relationship between Haydn and Beethoven, or Wagner and, well everyone. Genius has the ability to recognize itself. Actually I have just gotten to the part in the Edward Holmes "Life of Mozart," where Mozart says something like: 'Germany doesnt appreciate my music because it has no great appreciation of the great vienesse school. No matter; my music will CREATE an appreciation of the vienesse school in Germany. Classic ego from the master. Or it was Beethoven who said, "No-one deserves this gift more than me who is losing it. (hearing)"
WEll I'm not quite that confident, but I AM aware that other's perceptions of what I mean to do or what I am doing will be colored by MY ability to communicate effectively. Really good point. Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I think Card is so harsh because he has no toleration of an establishment that tolerates anything that makes communication a second class citizen.
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