posted
You build a sturdy, personal foundation from confronting adversity, not by being shielded from it. It's pop self-esteem all over again. Kids who are protected from failure and feeling bad and given praise no matter what develop neither self-esteem nor personal strength. You build strength by expecting strength and by valuing quality, not by wrapping kids in emotional cotton wool.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Avoiding deliberate humiliation is not coddling. I'm all for failing students. Just do it in private. No one's emotional rending should be milked for entertainment. Humiliation requires an audience.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
In Junior High (7th and 8th Grade), there was a teacher who was an eraser thrower. Nobody thought that this was a big deal, except one kid who brought in a doctor's note saying that he shouldn't have erasers thrown at him because the chalk dust aggravates his asthma.
I'm feeling old.
I was giving a guest-lecture in a high school recently. The bell rang and the kids were still drifting in, talking among themselves while I was waiting to begin my lecture. I waited for a minute, saw no sign of anyone paying me attention, so loudly clapped my hands three times and boomed "OK, people, let's settle down, find your seats and eyes front, please!"
Silence and shocked looks from the class and teacher (who was sitting off to the side). I guess that they don't do that any more, huh?
If any kid talks in class during my lectures, I give them a couple of seconds to see if it stops. If it continues, I interrupt their talking to tell them that they are disrespecting me by talking among themselves while I am lecturing, and that they can pay attention or leave the room.
This also tends to get shocked silence as a response.
I ignore any student who arrives late to lecture. And I refuse to "catch them up" on what they missed. That is their problem, not mine.
I demand respect when I am teaching. A teacher-student relationship is not a collegial one, there ought to be respect on both sides, but the greater deference is due the teacher.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I think my biggest question is whether or not Jonathan knew taht the teacher had a no food policy.
I mean, most of my professors let you eat wheatever you wanted in class, especially in the three hour long lectures at odd hours of the day. Even the ones who said they'd prefer that you not have food that would disturb the class (by being very smelly or loud) generally wouldn't say anything if you brought in a pack of Skittles or a bag of chips and a soda.
posted
Even if the teacher didn't have a specific no-food policy, I'd imagine the combination of the food AND the lateness, especially if the food caused the lateness, would have certainly "crossed the line". Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Generally speaking, I'm alright with people eating while I'm teaching, as long as they're not disturbing anyone else. I do get a bit frustrated when the class is only 50 minutes long, and people still MUST eat during class. Surely you can find five minutes before or after class in which to eat your munchies.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
JH, Is there not at least the possibility that this instructor thought of you as a willing participant in this lesson? I know that I developed a fondness and certain comaraderie with students who were doing well in my classes. I felt as if we had a "contract" that allowed me to banter with them and, within reason, use them as participants in lessons because they appeared to "get it."
Sometimes I struck a wrong note and ended up apologizing for taking too much for granted. But for the most part I found that good students enjoy that kind of attention whereas the less-engaged students were more likely to shrink from any in-class attention and sit there hoping I wouldn't call on them.
So, if time for a little playful banter came up during class, I would naturally gravitate to students who I thought were my allies in the instructional experience.
Alternatively, the instructor may have just thought you should've known better and was peeved with you. I would recommend against retaliation, and instead chat with the person. If they learn of your discomfort and you get the explanation you need for their actions, you still have a chance to enjoy the class, IMHO.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:I told him that it's שואל (lender) as it wasn't my initiative but his. He asked me whether I'm sure about it and I told him yes. What I didn't notice was that שואל (renter) is one who lends something for the actual use of it.
I take it neither you nor your classmates are likely to forget that distinction in the future.
I suggest you'll be much better off if you decide this experience is one to laugh about, rather than one on which to build resentment.
Posts: 99 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
My high school basketball coach was also an eraser thrower (and a slapper). Neither of those bothered me, but I played two sports for the guys so I'd gotten much worse. But he did cross the line when he threw the big eraser (which had wood for a backing material) and gave a girl a black eye. My girlfriend, as it were. He had to apologize to her and her parents.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Speaking personally, humiliation can be a very effective method of teaching, because it ties shame and pride, two of humanity's most powerful motivators, into doing better.
And if a student is put together wrong, behaviorally, well necessarily that structure must be broken.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I would like to hear a real, personal story from a teacher's point of view where a student who was disrespectful was suddenly and mortifyingly humiliated and then turned around completely to become a model student.
Breaking spirits is not the job of a teacher. If they can't teach without beating students down, they aren't good at their jobs. School is not boot camp, where you enter a civilian, sign over your soul, and come out a soldier.
Stupid, pesky, respect for individuals. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Well, although I agree with you, katharina, Humilation can vary a lot. I was made to stand on a chair in a younger grade. I was a tough kid and didn't mind because the teacher did it all the time and I got to look out of the window instead of working.
The next year I was moved to a different seat because I talked to much. I was totally humiliated. Why? Because I respected the teacher.
So levels of humilation are totally relative to the pupil, to the teacher and to the particular pupil-teacher relationship.
As Bob said, one of my favourite teachers would always make fun of certain students because he felt they "got it." I think, once or twice, he did misjudge the situation, but most of the time he was a funny guy.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
My partner is a teacher, and she has no problem, when a student is misbehaving, calling the student's parent right there in the middle of class and passing her cellphone over to the student to get an earful from a very annoyed parent.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I don't know how we got talking about humiliation. I don't see that humiliation was a significant factor in the original occurrence. It was rather a) depriving the student of an item he shouldn't have had, and b) incorporating the item into an object lesson, with the overall effect of c) driving home the point that neither tardiness nor eating in class is appropriate.
I also think the example of eating a student's ice cream is different from that of throwing a student's book in the garbage.
Posts: 202 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I just don't think eating in class is a big deal. Being late to class can be a big deal, but that depends on the professor and the situation.
But I also like to have something to do with my hands, and in a lot of my classes, professors already give us typed notes, so note-taking would be somewhat redundant.
quote: I suggest you'll be much better off if you decide this experience is one to laugh about, rather than one on which to build resentment.
I would've made it a matter of a joke, had the teacher done it properly.
(a) He gave no warning about the "crime" I commited. This is fine, except there should be a prelude to humiliation; (b) he mocked my taste in ice-cream flavours, showing absolutely no respect (he could've said, for instance, "coffee? Eh, whatever does it to you"), es-pecially when I'm pretty much known throughout the school for bringing that flavour into the kiosk in the first place; (c) not eating it himself with a giant grin and his well-known style of students' ockery (I'm not the first, by the way*); (d) he doesn't mockingly tap hardly on my back saying "thanks" sarcastically and making up some lame, irrelevant excuse as to why he was "obliged" by Jewish law to eat it up.
* When kids in my class were asked to fill in for a minyan in another class, the teacher talked behind the back of the most unpopular student (who went to fill in) about the fact that he does not count for a minyan. That essentially means that the kid is immature and does not count as an adult (which, for males, is 13).
---
I had violent teachers (those that throw spinning stuff at you), they never humiliated me - only gave me really rough massages. (Like the time whn the language teacher caught me reading an English poetry anthology. He didn't know Blake, but looked around and finally found Milton, whom he knew. He said I have a rich world and sighed. On another occasion he said "Amadan! Sit down!" and gave me a nerve-tearing "massage".)
Never, ever, in 10 years of mischievous excellence, have I been humiliated like this. And this is one of my very lesser crimes. I was barely late to class - it hadn't even started, the teacher was talking to another one before the lesson began; I came in silently and didn't make a fuss; others didn't and ate just as much and just as noisily, not to mention that it was far more lesson-disturbing.
[ November 22, 2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan Howard ]
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I agree that teachers should not try to humiliate students. I had a few that did, but they got no respect (but possibly obedience) from students.
Turning up late and eating an ice cream would have got me in trouble at school. Being late could earn a detention and eating was absolutely forbidden. I don’t know what the punishment would have been, but it would certainly have included confiscation. In the case on the ice cream, unless you want a melted mess back, that would have mean it would go in the bin.
I also agree with katharina, deliberate humiliation is not coddling. Giving failing grades when the work merits it is totally different from public humiliation.
Posts: 169 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: I would like to hear a real, personal story from a teacher's point of view where a student who was disrespectful was suddenly and mortifyingly humiliated and then turned around completely to become a model student.
We don't need to do that. We have our own little lab right here on Hatrack. Next time someone feels humiliated on Hatrack, and they feel like they want to thank the person who humiliated them for teaching them a valuable lesson, just let us all know so we can all learn from the example of the amazing powers of humilition in action.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
But Jonathan, don't you agree that your sneaking into the teacher's room and leaving that note was a very inappropriate response, no matter what the teacher's offense? I'm worried that it could create some real problems for you, since it was worded as a threat.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
completely off topic: I *love* magnum bars. They are divine. I completely understand why you wanted to finish it.
Posts: 862 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Well...I've been guilty to use a "hands-off" approach to my students, before.
Keep in mind that the culture is a tad different, some things that are ok here are not ok where you live (the opposite is always true).
Two male students are jokingly punching, grabbing and slapping one another. Eduardo: "Hey, guys...you can date when the class is over" (the class laughs, they stop)
Student: "Hey, teacher, your shoes are old! When are you going to buy a new one?" Eduardo: "When you or your dad give me the money. Oh, yes...your assignment is still late. When are you going to turn it in?" (It's funny to ad: I received a new pair of shoes. The class pooled the money and bought it to me as a birthday present).
When a student bring some kind of snack to the class I usually ask him/her to offer some of it to all classmates and me. Of course, it doesn't leave much for him/her to eat, but it do wonders to avoid them bringing foodstuff to class all the time (It's against the rules, anyway).
There are many more, but I'm too tired right now to put it accurately in contest.
Anyway, I dig JH's teacher style, but I'd have returned him the money afterward, I think (or not. It depends).
Posts: 1785 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I've always had a 'food tax' for people who bring food into my classes. If they're not willing to share it with me, then it shouldn't be out in class. These days no food is allowed in class whatsoever.
I'm a fairly patient teacher, but even I make sport of my student on occasion. I usually pick people who I think can take it. The very fact of my picking on them usually means I hold them in high regard for their emotional maturity (given, these are adults anyway, but that's not necessarily a precursor to maturity).
If I don't think they can take it, I don't do it.
JH - I think you take yourself far too seriously.
Posts: 2245 | Registered: Nov 1998
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quote:Student: "Hey, teacher, your shoes are old! When are you going to buy a new one?" Eduardo: "When you or your dad give me the money. Oh, yes...your assignment is still late. When are you going to turn it in?" (It's funny to ad: I received a new pair of shoes. The class pooled the money and bought it to me as a birthday present).
That's cute. And sweet.
quote:When a student bring some kind of snack to the class I usually ask him/her to offer some of it to all classmates and me. Of course, it doesn't leave much for him/her to eat, but it do wonders to avoid them bringing foodstuff to class all the time (It's against the rules, anyway).
That's the approach my teachers always used-- "If you don't have enough to share with the class, you shouldn't bring it to class." Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I know when I opened this thread, my first (joking) thought was, if you absolutely HATE your Bible teacher, you must not be learning the lessons very well!
I couldn't decide what to think of this. It's bad to humiliate a student; and it's possible to interpret this as something other than humiliation. It's so subjective.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I stayed in class today. No energy to ditch; a friend of mine is already ditching his father's (English) class and offered it to me. I decided against it.
Today the [Bible] teacher and I just exchanged quotes regarding the incident. With a couple of sneers here and there I essentially gave in.
But it's not the last he'll har from me. I might not quite beat him up, but I'll remind it to him every so often. In funny but unpleasant ways.
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: That's the approach my teachers always used-- "If you don't have enough to share with the class, you shouldn't bring it to class."
Yeah, my teachers would say that, too. So one day in the 4th grade, I saved enough money to buy two Plen-T-Paks of Juicyfruit gum, which would be enough for the whole class to have a piece. I took out a piece of gum and began ostentatiously chewing, just waiting for the invitation to share with the class.
Predictably, the teacher chided "Unless you have enough for the entire class, spit that out." I was so happy to take out all my gum and announce to the class that there was enough for everyone.
Unhappy ending: Got sent to the principal's office, my parents got called, and I received a couple of scathing lectures about my smart-alecky attitude.
Moral of the story: As a student, you can't win for losing.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
So you were late, brought an ice cream, proceeded to eat it in class in front of everyone, without bringing one to placate a potentially (and justifiably angry) teacher and you are upset that he made you an example and devoured your (expensive?) ice cream as part of the day's lesson so now you are mad and don't want to be in his class anymore? Did I perceive all this correctly?
I am stifling laughter as I type. I apologize if that humiliates you.
My first question is how old are you, JH? I am guessing by the petulant attitude that you are somewhere between 6-9 grade, which would put you between 11 and 15 years old.
I am a middle school teacher. I can totally relate to your teacher and my advice to you is quit whining. At least you didn't get hit in the eye by El JT de Spang's coach's flying eraser (which would certainly get him fired nowadays).
quote:(a) He gave no warning about the "crime" I committed.
So you had no idea that it was disrespectful to enter his class late slurping on the very ice cream that made you late? Have you been late before? Gimme a break!
I have been sarcastic with students in the past with mixed success. I try not to hurt anyone's feelings but it happens and when it does, I apologize. Things I have said and done to students:
"Don't make me get my big stick!" (with variations like "Where is my big stick?" I actually have a big stick that I will pull out from behind a bookshelf from time to time. I never actually threaten anyone with it though)
"You can flirt later" (to anyone who is play fighting) or "You fight like a married couple" (to anyone who is arguing)
After catching students doing math homework (and sometimes copying off other papers) instead of my classwork, I will march them down the hall to their math class and tell the math teacher what happened. She takes their work, crumples it up and throws it in the trash. She has the same policy if they are doing my work in her class (but she saves the book if they are reading one and just gives it to me; we have more respect for books than to trash them).
I have called parents on my cell phone (like StarLisa's partner) and let the parents talk to them in class. VERY effective and I usually only have to do it once or twice.
When someone throws a paper ball to the trash can, they better make it. If they don't, They have to stay after class and pick up ALL the paper on the floor. It is rare for anyone to throw paper.
I have known a teacher to have a student caught chewing gum (a cardinal sin at my school) scrape 5 pieces of gum of the undersides of the desks.
I would not have eaten your ice cream and I would not have thrown it away. I would have made YOU throw it away and I would have made a big deal about it too. I also would have appreciated it if you had brought me an ice cream. I might have let you eat yours.
I don't think the teacher was in the wrong in this case. He seemed to be trying to use humor to teach you the lesson not to be late because you stopped to buy ice cream (without at least bringing him one). Your only "crime" is not appreciating his humor. Any further action on your part is childish, vindictive and way over the line.
Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
You show him Jonny. Getting all worked up about something he's likely to have more or less forgotten and from time to time making cryptic nasty comments that he'll likely not care about or will justifiably punish you for if he does, yeah, that'll make you a winner.
The world doesn't revolve around you. Your teacher isn't thinking obsessively over this. He's likely not thinking about it all. If he is, it will probably be more in the "How can I encourage this kid to start acting maturely?" and not in any of the ways that your self-centered power fantasies make him out to be.
There's not great battle going on between you. The only negative thing you're going to be able to make him feel is sadness that you aren't growing up.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Unhappy ending: Got sent to the principal's office, my parents got called, and I received a couple of scathing lectures about my smart-alecky attitude.
Moral of the story: As a student, you can't win for losing.
How sad! I did the same thing, but with chocolate, and all 34 of us were permitted to sit in class and eat the chocolate. Although that teacher changed the rule the next day to "it's school policy that we shouldn't be eating in class." Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Susan Elgin (The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense) talks about this classroom dynamic. Most teachers (including all the good ones) understand the power differential, and restrain themselves from intentionally using their power as moderator, speaker, and judge in any sort of personal way against students. They may do things wrong, but they do have a sense of limits.
That is, until the student decides to humiliate the teacher. This says, "I'm on your level; you don't have to hold back any more." Then the teacher will let you have it. Day after day he will have opportunities that go way, way beyond eating ice cream. Sounds like this one's creative enough that he can have the whole class laughing at you whenever he likes.
Doesn't sound too pleasant. I'm glad I'm not in that class.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I've been lurking for months happily but I can't not post my thoughts on this thread.
JH, You perceived your instructor's actions as a deliberate act of humiliation, correct? You also say that this teacher impressed you as witty and insightful prior to this episode. I'm curious as to whether some of his witticsms have been directed at other students? If so, then when you are the focus of that humor you wilt. You are a smart young man but you lack perspective. You need to realize that the instructor expected better from you and that he was simply being true to form. The only difference between your perception of him previously and now is that you have no sense of humor when you are the subject.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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when I was a senior in high school, I couldn't fit a lunch into my schedule so I had to eat during some other class. One honors class had a number of students like myself so the teacher let us all eat in class. It also happened that we either had to leave the previous class a minute or two before the bell or arrive to class late if we were buying lunch.
All of this was with the permission of the teacher(s) though. We definately couldn't be late to class or eat/drink otherwise.
In my college classes it doesn't matter if people drink coffee because most likely the professor is as well. My favorite prof gave us this rule in the beginning of class: you can't eat, but you can drink because I'm going to and I completely understand if you need coffee too. Eating varies, but I can definately understand if a prof doesn't want someone eating chips or loud food. A bagel, though, could sneak by pretty easily.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
No, I teach college. Drinks don't bother me in the slightest, and I don't say anything about food either, unless it's really loud or really smelly. It's just one of those things I think privately in short classes, not something I make a rule about.
On the other hands, I do not allow: extended conversations between students not relating to class, cellphones not turned off, laptops, or headphones. These are things I consider to be distracting not only to me as a teacher, but to other students as well. My basic philosophy boils down to, if it doesn't disturb my teaching or students' learning, I don't care.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Well, I didn't want to accidentally assign meaning to someone else's words. The world is full of irrational people who take themselves way to seriously. Posts: 866 | Registered: Dec 2003
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We're allowed to eat in class all the time. It depends on the profs, but it seems that here they're pretty laid-back. One Latin prof would bring her lunch to class (one day, an entire messy pita wrap), but that probably had a lot to do with the fact that they don't really lecture after first year in Latin classes. Another prof (oh, those zany Latin profs!) actually let us have class in the campus pub one time (beer and snacks allowed). In larger classes (80+), no one seems to care, because there are just so many students. In the really small classes (<15), it's such a tightly-knit atmosphere that usually it's very casual.
Often I have to eat during class, if my bloodsugar takes a sudden dip. I'm not diabetic, but I start shaking and if ignore it too long I can give myself a migraine. I try to keep it quiet, though, and unobtrusive.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by kojabu: No, laptops eh? Not even for taking notes?
Nope. I find people tend to use them for things other than taking notes during class. And while I may not be able to see it, I know others can. As a student, it drove me crazy to watch others play solitaire during lecture.
Note: I know many, many others disagree with me on this and insist that they perform better in class when they can use their laptop. Should other professors choose to allow it, that's fine and dandy. I don't.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Believe you or not, I was put in JH's teacher shoes today, with an added benefit: not one, but three of my students came in late (although only a couple of minutes) and eating ice cream.
I only asked for a bite and told them to finish them outside the classroom, then enter. I guess I'm not too imaginative, he. Go figure.
Posts: 1785 | Registered: Oct 2003
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