quote: She was replaced by a man calling himself a "new age rabbi" who would perform wiccan rituals, celebrate Christian communion, give Jewish or Mormon, or any other form of blessing -- basically pretend to be whatever religion the patient practiced. That I consider polytheism.
I think you're being too charitable. I consider that blasphemy.
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That's incredibly depressing. The idea that these Jewish kids are being raised as idolators is just horrendous.
Before people freak out, btw, Jewish law has a double standard where idolatry is concerned. According to most opinions, non-Jews are allowed to practice shituf, which means associating another "deity" with the One God. Doing that is not considered idolatry for non-Jews. For this reason, most forms of Christianity are not considered idolatry. For non-Jews. For Jews, shituf is out-and-out idolatry, and a Jew who practices Christianity is an idolator.
Causing other Jews to commit idolatry is even worse than committing it oneself. This woman should be ashamed of herself.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Do any aspects of Christianity violate (in the Jewish mind) the 7 laws of Noah?
See my response to the article you posted. There is a dispute over whether shituf is permitted for non-Jews, and we generally rule that it is. But not for Jews.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Do any aspects of Christianity violate (in the Jewish mind) the 7 laws of Noah?
See my response to the article you posted. There is a dispute over whether shituf is permitted for non-Jews, and we generally rule that it is. But not for Jews.
If only the Noachide movement were stronger. Raising my future children as Reform Jews I agree would feel wrong in too many ways. But to raise them as Christians (no disrespect intended) scares me.
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quote:There is a dispute over whether shituf is permitted for non-Jews, and we generally rule that it is.
If it isn't, I hope that you Jews would be so kind as to proselyte to those of us not exposed to your religion.
I'd hate to earn God's wrath by acting ignorantly. If I'm going to make Him mad, I'd prefer to do it with full cognition.
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quote:There is a dispute over whether shituf is permitted for non-Jews, and we generally rule that it is.
If it isn't, I hope that you Jews would be so kind as to proselyte to those of us not exposed to your religion.
I'd hate to earn God's wrath by acting ignorantly. If I'm going to make Him mad, I'd prefer to do it with full cognition.
Lol. Actually the torah scholars will probably argue the truth is in front of Christians since their bible contains the Hebrew Scriptures so missionaries wouldn't be needed. Though I understand Christians just interpret it differently.
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quote:Actually the torah scholars will probably argue the truth is in front of Christians since their bible contains the Hebrew Scriptures so missionaries wouldn't be needed.
It's because of the difference of interpretation and the weight of Christian culture that missionaries WOULD be needed.
If you hand a child a roll of scripture without teaching him how to read it, and then condemn him later for stealing when it CLEARLY says 'Thou Shalt Not Steal!' in the scriptures. . . YOU are to blame for the theft because you never gave the child the tools to understand the scriptures in the right light.
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quote:Actually the torah scholars will probably argue the truth is in front of Christians since their bible contains the Hebrew Scriptures so missionaries wouldn't be needed.
It's because of the difference of interpretation and the weight of Christian culture that missionaries WOULD be needed.
Hmmm, its a tough call. Missionaries that spread the beliefs of Judaism, but tell you not to actually convert to it? Maybe someday someone will start a true Noachide church.
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quote: Then let me rephrase. She ought to realize that what she's doing is wrong, and be ashamed of herself for doing it.
Better?
Again, my point remains the same. If she felt that what she was doing was wrong, then she would have a need for shame. As it stands now, she merely disagrees with your views. By itself, that doesn't constitue a need for shame...
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quote:Missionaries that spread the beliefs of Judaism, but tell you not to actually convert to it? Maybe someday someone will start a true Noachide church.
Why hasn't God (or the rabbis) called for the creation of this church already?
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quote:Missionaries that spread the beliefs of Judaism, but tell you not to actually convert to it? Maybe someday someone will start a true Noachide church.
Why hasn't God (or the rabbis) called for the creation of this church already?
Perhaps Jews need to outreach to other Jews first. How can we be an example to the world when our own stray?
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quote:Perhaps Jews need to outreach to other Jews first. How can we be an example to the world when our own stray?
Not everyone is straying.
Does God have a provision for the "salvation" (or what have you) for. . .say, the Aboriginies who've never even seen a Jew?
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quote:Perhaps Jews need to outreach to other Jews first. How can we be an example to the world when our own stray?
Not everyone is straying.
Does God have a provision for the "salvation" (or what have you) for. . .say, the Aboriginies who've never even seen a Jew?
I guess it depends on their belief system. For instance the reason I think Christians are fine is because in their hearts they truly believe it is one God, and not 3 the way Jews perceive it. Nor do they see the cross as an idol the way the ancient Greeks had idols. Do the aboriginies worship idols?
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I've also seen the law as being read "not to deny G-d". If the aboriginies know nothing about G-d, I don't see how they can deny Him.
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Good question actually. I meant Adonai, but I guess that is part of the debate Lisa was talking about. It sounds like from her it is generally accepted that associating another deity for "G-d" is ok for non-Jews. Since Jews see Jesus as another deity, that logic would say Christians are fine for the same reason.
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Say I was a Athenian who worshipped Diana and Dionysus Zagreus and had never heard of Moses or the Torah, or even monotheistic religions?
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Maybe that is the job of Christian missionaries. I have heard some Jews argue that Christianity and Islam were created to get pagans used to the idea of one G-d. If that is true then Christian missionaries could still be doing G-d's work as long as they don't try to convert Jews.
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quote: If that is true then Christian missionaries could still be doing G-d's work as long as they don't try to convert Jews.
Then God should tell Christians and Muslims that so that they don't accidentally sin.
Although, if He's going to go through the trouble, why not just lay out how things really are?
I notice that God didn't take the pansy path with Abram or Moses. . . in fact, when has God ever done anything half-way?
quote:Maybe that is the job of Christian missionaries.
I think you might be missing the point. What happens to all the peopel who die without knowing anything about God?
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quote:Even Christians admit it has been a long time since G-d took the hands on approach.
Oddly, when God was taking a hands-on approach to Christianity, he didn't mention that Jews were off limits. You'll take note that Jesus Christ, who founded Christianity, was a nice Jewish kid.
(And some folks still believe that God does take a hands on approach to revealing His will on the earth. I'm one of them, though some may debate my Christianity)
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quote:Even Christians admit it has been a long time since G-d took the hands on approach.
Oddly, when God was taking a hands-on approach to Christianity, he didn't mention that Jews were off limits. You'll take note that Jesus Christ, who founded Christianity, was a nice Jewish kid.
Again I would have to say it is up to the Jew to know better then to convert.
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quote:There is a dispute over whether shituf is permitted for non-Jews, and we generally rule that it is.
If it isn't, I hope that you Jews would be so kind as to proselyte to those of us not exposed to your religion.
There's a small Noachide movement out there, but the truth is, we need to get our own house in order before we start looking outwards. It's sort of our job.
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Some of us believe that there are specific directives to us to offer pretty much anyone the chance to convert.
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quote:Actually the torah scholars will probably argue the truth is in front of Christians since their bible contains the Hebrew Scriptures so missionaries wouldn't be needed.
It's because of the difference of interpretation and the weight of Christian culture that missionaries WOULD be needed.
If you hand a child a roll of scripture without teaching him how to read it, and then condemn him later for stealing when it CLEARLY says 'Thou Shalt Not Steal!' in the scriptures. . . YOU are to blame for the theft because you never gave the child the tools to understand the scriptures in the right light.
Scott, you have a really valid point. And we do the best we can. Back during Roman times, we used to do it a lot. Talk about Romans who "converted" to Judaism was mostly about Romans who became Noachides, although some of them went all the way and converted.
Almost two millenia of it being worth our lives to try it has gotten us out of the habit, for the most part, but it's still on the agenda.
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quote: Then let me rephrase. She ought to realize that what she's doing is wrong, and be ashamed of herself for doing it.
Better?
Again, my point remains the same. If she felt that what she was doing was wrong, then she would have a need for shame. As it stands now, she merely disagrees with your views. By itself, that doesn't constitue a need for shame...
'Tain't my views. And it's not a matter of my opinion vs. hers, either. It's very unlikely that she has the requisite education to have an informed opinion on the matter.
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quote:Perhaps Jews need to outreach to other Jews first. How can we be an example to the world when our own stray?
Not everyone is straying.
Does God have a provision for the "salvation" (or what have you) for. . .say, the Aboriginies who've never even seen a Jew?
Well, bear in mind that most of the Noachide laws are pretty much no-brainers. A moral society will have them naturally.
Don't murder Don't steal Don't commit acts of sexual immorality Don't eat the limb of a living animal Have courts that enforce the laws
The other two are:
Don't worship idols Don't blaspheme
Those are the only ones that one wouldn't necessarily expect people to know without being told. So it's not like people are being left hanging.
Of course, to take the example you used before, if you give a child a Bible, and he threatens to kill you if you suggest that he needs to learn how to read in order to understand it, it's not really the fault of those who don't teach him to read.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Good question actually. I meant Adonai, but I guess that is part of the debate Lisa was talking about. It sounds like from her it is generally accepted that associating another deity for "G-d" is ok for non-Jews.
No, Stephan. "Associating" means worshipping God, and also worshipping Baal. For example.
In the case of Christianity, I guess the decision was made that despite what Christians may say about 3 being 1, their "Father" counts as worshipping God, and their "Son and Holy Spirit" are additional deities tacked on. Which is permitted for non-Jews, even while being an error and not at all something to encourage, but forbidden in a big way for Jews. It's one of the three things that a Jew is supposed to let himself be killed rather than violate.
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I've always wondered how the first amendment squares with the combination of "Have courts that enforce the laws" and "Don't worship idols/Don't blaspheme."
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quote: In the case of Christianity, I guess the decision was made that despite what Christians may say about 3 being 1, their "Father" counts as worshipping God, and their "Son and Holy Spirit" are additional deities tacked on.
Are you saying that, despite what we say we believe, someone has decided that we really believe something else?
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quote:Missionaries that spread the beliefs of Judaism, but tell you not to actually convert to it? Maybe someday someone will start a true Noachide church.
Why hasn't God (or the rabbis) called for the creation of this church already?
quote:to take the example you used before, if you give a child a Bible, and he threatens to kill you if you suggest that he needs to learn how to read in order to understand it, it's not really the fault of those who don't teach him to read.
It depends on whether or not the commandment to teach the scriptures to your children was given by God, with whom all things are possible, or whether it's just a good idea for people to follow when it's convenient and the children are nice.
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quote: In the case of Christianity, I guess the decision was made that despite what Christians may say about 3 being 1, their "Father" counts as worshipping God, and their "Son and Holy Spirit" are additional deities tacked on.
Are you saying that, despite what we say we believe, someone has decided that we really believe something else?
Do Jews believe the Christian trinity is worshipping 3 different gods? Generally yes. But hey, if we agreed with you we'd convert wouldn't we?
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quote:Go a couple straight centuries without a pogrom.
EDITED: Because it was going too far.
quote:Don't commit acts of sexual immorality
Yeah-- at this point, some commentary would need to be written up and disseminated to all the potential Noachites. Pun. . .er. . .sort of intended.
Here's my question, again: What does God do with the souls, (or Jewish equivalent) of people who have never had the chance to accept the Noachide laws/convert to Judaism?
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I've always wondered how the first amendment squares with the combination of "Have courts that enforce the laws" and "Don't worship idols/Don't blaspheme."
It doesn't. The Noachide laws require that the Noachide laws be enforced. The First Amendment requires that they not be enforced. They conflict.
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quote: In the case of Christianity, I guess the decision was made that despite what Christians may say about 3 being 1, their "Father" counts as worshipping God, and their "Son and Holy Spirit" are additional deities tacked on.
Are you saying that, despite what we say we believe, someone has decided that we really believe something else?
Um... yeah. See, it's a matter of technical terms. If I have a mole and go to the doctor and he says it's not a mole, then it doesn't matter what I think about it. He's a doctor, and he knows better than me what the definition of "mole" is.
Now, I can call it a mole, and it's not as if anyone is going to arrest me for it. And if I'm talking with other people who have the same idea I do of what a mole is, we'll communicate fairly well. But in terms of the real definition of "mole", we're wrong.
It's the same thing here. Y'all can say that 3 = 1 is a paradox that just needs to be taken on faith. You can quote Tertullian and say "It's absurd; therefore I believe". But three is three and one is one. And we have the definitions that God gave.
If you'd like to do a word substitution, that's fine. But God told us that God is One, with no divisions or parts, and Christianity doesn't accept that.
But like I said, while it's an error, it's not considered idolatry for non-Jews.
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quote:to take the example you used before, if you give a child a Bible, and he threatens to kill you if you suggest that he needs to learn how to read in order to understand it, it's not really the fault of those who don't teach him to read.
It depends on whether or not the commandment to teach the scriptures to your children was given by God, with whom all things are possible, or whether it's just a good idea for people to follow when it's convenient and the children are nice.
In Jewish law, we're forbidden to place ourselves in danger. The value of human life is almost inviolate. If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to eat a ham sandwich, I'll eat the ham sandwich. If someone puts a gun to my head and tells me to worship an idol, I'll try my damnedest to kill him first, but even if I fail and get killed, that's the right choice.
Educating people who have a track record of killing us just for existing, let alone telling them that their religion is in error, isn't worth our lives. And that's according to God.
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quote: It's very unlikely that she has the requisite education to have an informed opinion on the matter.
You assume that she is uneducated because she has made a choice that is deplorable to you? That seems a bit condescending to me.
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quote:Educating people who have a track record of killing us just for existing, let alone telling them that their religion is in error, isn't worth our lives. And that's according to God.
If you think that you can get off because of a martyr complex, I advise you to search the 'US President Is a Mormon' thread, and tell me why Jews can use it but Mormons can't.
Both our religions have histories of being persecuted. Both may currently suffer persecution. But that's no excuse for not obeying God. Indeed, didn't the Maccabees put themselves in danger in order to comply with God's will? What about Moses, Abram?
Can we do less than them?
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Two questions for all our Jewish commentators:
1) Was Abraham "Jewish" by your definition of what it means to be a Jew today? And, whether you've answered yes or no, please explain your reason.
2) Does Jewish faith allow for new revelation from G_d? (i.e., is it possible for G_d to send a prophet who would reinterpret or even provide a replacement of what would then be prior laws?)
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Here's my question, again: What does God do with the souls, (or Jewish equivalent) of people who have never had the chance to accept the Noachide laws/convert to Judaism?
I don't know. We don't really deal in souls. The whole picture of what happens next is fairly vague. The most common answer I've gotten is that we're each going to find out eventually, so why fret about it? There are enough things to worry about in this world.
But understand, we don't have Hell. That's not something we even really understand very well. In the World to Come, your closeness (maybe metaphorically speaking) to God is determined by your acts in this world. To the extent that you've done right, you get to be closer. To the extent that you haven't, you don't.
When a person dies, they become acutely, 100%, aware of everything they've done, and all the implications of everything they've done. No rationalizations are possible. This is overwhelming and disorienting, and "painful" in some sense or other. Our tradition tells us that even the most wicked person (of those who have a share in the World to Come at all) doesn't endure this period of adjustment for more than a year.
This is why we say Kaddish, which is a kind of affirmation for the departed, for 11 months following death. The idea being that to do it for a year would imply that they're in the category of the most wicked, but 11 months is just to be on the safe side.
There are categories of people who can lose their place in the World to Come altogether. But that applies to Jews. With non-Jews, we say that the righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come. Is a non-Jew who didn't know better and who nevertheless acted morally in every way he could have known about in that category? Honest answer: I don't know. If I were making the rules, then definitely. And I think it's likely. But I don't know the answer to the question.
Personally, I think that the worst that could happen with someone who really had no way to possibly know they were violating the Noachide laws is that they might wind up in the bleachers, so to speak.
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quote:Educating people who have a track record of killing us just for existing, let alone telling them that their religion is in error, isn't worth our lives. And that's according to God.
If you think that you can get off because of a martyr complex, I advise you to search the 'US President Is a Mormon' thread, and tell me why Jews can use it but Mormons can't.
Both our religions have histories of being persecuted. Both may currently suffer persecution. But that's no excuse for not obeying God. Indeed, didn't the Maccabees put themselves in danger in order to comply with God's will? What about Moses, Abram?
Can we do less than them?
I assume its because Mormons believe spreading their religion is worth the risk?
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quote: It's very unlikely that she has the requisite education to have an informed opinion on the matter.
You assume that she is uneducated because she has made a choice that is deplorable to you? That seems a bit condescending to me.
<shrug> I know educated Jews (educated about Judaism, that is) who have apostasized. They still generally speak differently than this woman does. I acknowledge the possibility that she's made a conscious and informed choice to do the wrong thing. I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume that she's merely ignorant.
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1) Was Abraham "Jewish" by your definition of what it means to be a Jew today? And, whether you've answered yes or no, please explain your reason.
From everything I learned, yes. The Scriptures seem pretty clear on that. Abraham's family was Jewish when circumsized. I believe this is the reason Issac had to marry a cousin.
2) Does Jewish faith allow for new revelation from G_d? (i.e., is it possible for G_d to send a prophet who would reinterpret or even provide a replacement of what would then be prior laws?)
Reinterpret or replace? I don't believe that would be possible.
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