posted
See, I wasn't mad at my parents for lying to me. I was mad at them for telling me (the truth), and thus making it impossible for me to choose (despite all evidence) to go on believing. In my heart I knew it wasn't real, but I wanted to be able to believe anyway.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Being a Jew in a predominantly Christian culture is always going to be looking at that culture from the outside. Santa Claus was one of those cultural phenomena that we just didn't "get". I still don't really get it. I suppose that if you don't grow up with it as part of your childhood, you never will.
Ah, but the Tooth Fairy! I told my son that he should never sleep with his head under the pillow, because sometimes the Tooth Fairy will come and take an eye instead. I told him that the Tooth Fairy used the children's teeth to make piano keys. The black keys were from the kids who didn't brush their teeth. He always understood that the Tooth Fairy was a made up invention. But he was shocked when he found out that other children had heard of it, too. He had figured that it was just a crazy story that his mother made up.
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quote:I don't even really know what a fundamentalist is in this context.
You accused me of being incapable of seeing another person's point of view. I'm not interested in the question of what dogma I'm supposed to be a fundamentalist of, the point is you flat out told me that I don't have the ability to see this from anyone else's perspective. How is that not an accusation of fundamentalism?
Just because I believe something, even because I believe it strongly, does not mean I am incapable of understanding, appreciating, or even being convinced of, someone else's position. The fact that you have thus far failed to convince me that the Santa lie is acceptable does not constitute proof that I am incapable of seeing the world in any way but that which I already do.
quote:However, what I was saying was that, from your persepective, given how you explained your perspective, that is pretty much how you will see things.(i.e. rationally, so any Santa fantasy fun is seen as a lie)
Now you are blatantly ignoring my real words and are inventing words for me to have said. Show me one passage, one sentence, in which I said anything like "fantasy fun is a lie".
What I actually said was that children are capable of recognizing fantasy as fantasy, and they would still have fun with the Santa character even if they knew that he didn't really exist. I don't have a problem with playing the Santa game just as a game, and I defy you to indentify anywhere that I have said otherwise.
Telling your child that Santa Claus really does exist, with the intention of having them truly believe that he does, when you yourself know perfectly well that he does not, is, by definition, a lie. You are telling a known falsehood with the intention of having someone else believe that it is a truth. That's what a lie is. You may think I'm condemning you as a horrible person, but I'm not. My parents perpetuated the same lie, but they are not horrible people. Just because I call a spade a spade does not mean I am here to cast judgment. I'm just stating my point of view. If that point of view offends you, well, I'm sorry for that. But I'm not going to conceal or water down my point of view, because that's counterproductive to having a conversation.
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Tante, if you understand about the tooth fairy, what is there not to "get" about Santa? It's pretty much the same thing -- there's nothing specifically Christian about it except the timing.
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Icarus, my 18 yo niece was furious the other night because her parents said that the Santa gifts would be wrapped this year.
"WHAT!!! Santa does NOT wrap gifts!!"
Like Bob, I do not remember the moment I stopped believing. And, as mentioned, I lived right down the mountain from the North Pole, and Santa walked the streets of my town as a regular, friendly old fellow. To me, it was all magical and fun, and I was also very tied in to Christmas as a celebration of Jesus' birth.
Come to think of it, no one seems to have been traumatized by finding out Jesus was not really born in December. I wonder why?
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No. They are still quite happily married after more than thirty years. Why? What has that to do with it?
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: Tante, if you understand about the tooth fairy, what is there not to "get" about Santa? It's pretty much the same thing -- there's nothing specifically Christian about it except the timing.
Santa does not apply to us. He is a Christmas thing, and Jews don't do Christmas.
The tooth fairy is completely secular, and, thus, an appropriate target for my mockery. My treatment of the Tooth Fairy is akin to me telling a kid that Santa is wanted for multiple counts of breaking and entering, and that he is famous for inappropriately having children sit on his lap.
Not that I would ever say such a thing.
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I don't remember ever really believing in Santa, either. There were presents from Santa under the tree, and I remember going to see this guy in a red suit--and I even remember putting out cookies and milk for him one Christmas Eve. But I think it was always just a game for me; Santa was never a very big deal at our house. I've never had children, and am not likely to at my age, but I've often wondered how I'd handle the whole Santa issue if I had them. Probably the same way my parents did.
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quote: My treatment of the Tooth Fairy is akin to me telling a kid that Santa is wanted for multiple counts of breaking and entering, and that he is famous for inappropriately having children sit on his lap.
Not that I would ever say such a thing.
LOL -- Tante, that reminds me of an old SNL "Church Lady" skit about Santa and bouncing the little ones on his lap. "What do you get when you rearrange the letters of his name? Hmmmmmm?? How about SATAN?"
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quote:My treatment of the Tooth Fairy is akin to me telling a kid that Santa is wanted for multiple counts of breaking and entering, and that he is famous for inappropriately having children sit on his lap.
Not that I would ever say such a thing.
I would find that less offensive than what you did say.
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If you haven't been getting any presents from me, it is because you have been naughty instead of nice. Maybe your chances will improve next year. Good luck and Merry Christmas.
HO HO HO!!!
Posts: 1 | Registered: Dec 2005
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OK. I am sorry that I have offended my dear Hatrack friends. I am going to stop doing it now. I want you to know that I try to raise my son with respect and tolerance for all the people. Humor and irreverence at times, but respect. Please accept my sincere apologies for all offense I have given on this thread.
Your replies to mine are taken to heart. Thank you for showing me where I've been going wrong.
posted
I wasn't talking about you Tante. I always find your comments full of intelligence and insight. And you are one of the few people whose reasoning behind the boycott of Santa makes sense to me. I apologize that you thought I meant you in my post. Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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You can't simultaneously remain above the fray and take a side. You have just said that those of us who object to being characterized as silly people who lie to our children for no discernable reason are wrong to be annoyed. I suppose, then, that you would not mind being characterized in this way? Good to know.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Well, I personally found Tante's post offensive. I believe that if I displayed a similar amount of insensitivity toward Jewish traditions, it would not be tolerated. In fact, I found hers to be the most objectionable post on this thread. So you say people are getting too worked up, but then specifically single out only Tante as someone who you do not feel that way about, well, I think you just traded in your "above it all" card.
Also, Mandy, you might want to stay clear of many, many threads at Hatrack if the fact that they go off track and get down and dirty bothers you. I usually stay to the fluff threads, myself, and avoid the religious discussions and political discussions.
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