posted
I'm all for Tante's "laugh things off" method. It's something I do a fair amount of myself (but then, like Tante, I'm a fundamentally happy person, so it's something that comes naturally. If I weren't such a person I'm not sure how much good it would do to try to be this way).
That said, that wouldn't be my response to the guy who was in your parking spot, Verily. Laughing things off is a good response if it's a situation that you can resolve yourself, or if it's one in which there isn't really anything you can do one way or another. In this situation you needed to get it resolved. Given that,in your place I probably would have laughed and said something to the effect of "Sorry to interrupt you--looks like we're inconveniencing each other. If you'll just move your car I'll get out of your hair". Whatever the guy's response, I'd have maintained a shield of genial positivity.
So how long was it until he moved his car? And where you parked in the meantime (when you were going door to door and such), just out of curiosity?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I talked for most of my one hour and fifteen minute drive home last night. It was 10 at night and the drive was all interstate and deserted. I don't mind talking on the phone for a drive like that. I don't talk until I hit the interstate, usually. I don't talk when I'm in traffic. I don't talk when I'm in an unfamiliar place. I don't do any of those things because they require my full attention.
Driving down a deserted interstate in the middle of the night does not require my full attention. In that situation, anyone driving alone whether they're on a cellphone or not is not giving the driving their full attention.
Most driving doesn't require your full attention. Almost everyone does something else while they're driving. If it's not eating, listening to music, playing car games, talking, or singing then it's at least thinking.
Should I also try to stop thinking while I'm driving? Should I strive for that zen-like focus in order to maximize my driving capacity? I don't know, but it seems like overkill. I can't help but ponder worldly things when I'm driving long distances.
Where am I going in life? Am I where I thought I would be? Should I quit my job and move to LA? Shouldn't I be more accomplished at this point in my life? Should I go to grad school? How much longer is my grandmother going to be with us? How will I handle that with my parents when they get that age? Will my brother ever grow up? I wonder if I'll get a chance to do some fishing this spring? I have fish in my freezer; I think I'll cook that for dinner tomorrow....
And so on.
I don't know how I could prevent that, or if I should even try to.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I'm pretty sure that in all the cell phone studies, the people in the control group were thinking. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Yes, but don't you think they know that their driving is being observed and are therefore more likely to pay closer attention to what they're doing?
How long were they studied? Were they observed for long drives or short ones? City, rural, or interstate? Was each driver observed on more than one occasion?
I haven't read the studies, but for me it was easy to drive perfect in drivers ed, with the instructor next to you or even now, when my parents are in the car.
But when you get alone or with friends it's easy to forget about ten and two.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Not like I've got any traffic safety studies in fron of me now, but it is possible to study people who don't know that they are being studied. Like take an "exit survey" after an accident, and find out whether the drivers were eating, driving with others or alone, listening to the radio, talking on their cellphones, or had liquor in their systems.
But, duh, if I know I'm being watched, I'm sure to obey the speed limit, keep my hands at 10 and 2, properly use my directional signal, come to a full and complete stop at all stop signs, and, yeah, no cell phone.
I mean, don't we all?
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
"Oh no, officer. I wasn't eating, drinking, or talking on my phone. If the other guy said that I think he's trying to cover up his own drinking."
But yeah, I agree, there are ways to get the data without the people knowing. When I get off of work I'll actually read some of the studies and see how they're collecting their data.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Without a doubt, I'm worse with real people in the car than I am with a cell phone. I feel that I need to give far *more* attention to a person who is in the car with me, than I do to some one I'm talking on the phone with. It's a combination of hospitality brainwashing and a physical presence thing. I'm always glancing at them for body language. I focus far more on the road, while on a cell phone. And when I'm pretty loopy driving home, talking to someone keeps me more alert by far, otherwise I'd totally zone out.
Is it safer than "ideal" circumstances. No, but from that standpoint, I'm basically almost always driving impaired. In the morning on the way to work, I'm not awake, nor is my brain functioning, and in the evening coming home from work, I'm exhausted and my brain isn't functioning. But I have to work.
The nice thing is, that the majority of my trip is on a single road in a straight line. Makes things a bit easier.
posted
One of the first studies didn't observe people directly at all. It cross-referenced cell phone records with accident reports to see how many accidents in a certain period of time were caused by people who were on their phones. This is where the initial statistic of people on cell phones being four times more likely to cause accidents comes from.
And in the studies where people were being directly observed, the people on the phones had just as much incentive to pay attention and be careful as the control group, so it wouldn't have made any difference even then. There have been loads of studies using many different methods, but they've all come up with very similar results.
I realize there's a human tendency to make assumptions that will justify behaviour you're going to undertake anyway. But these studies are easily available... you should have a look at them before you dismiss their results.
Find me one single study that shows even the most minute improvement under any circumstances with any sub-population of drivers using cell phones and you'll have a starting point for your discussion. Heck, it should be easy to find such results if they're true... there are several multi-billion dollar cell phone companies that would be willing to pay a literal fortune for those results if they thought there was any chance they could get them.
But with the overwhelming evidence saying that cell phones make you drive worse, and no evidence saying they make you drive better, you'll have to forgive me if "cell phones help me concentrate" doesn't quite convince me. Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
First, I never claimed that cellphones made anyone a better driver.
I just said, like AJ did, that I'm always distracted in some way, as is everyone I've ever ridden with save for my grandpa, who never drives more than 35 or farther than 3 miles from his house.
And I also said that people being studied are obviously going to have some incentive to be on their best behavior, so to speak. You can't just say that because both groups had the same incentive it cancels out. Well, you can of course, but I just don't see it.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Speed: One of the first studies didn't observe people directly at all. It cross-referenced cell phone records with accident reports to see how many accidents in a certain period of time were caused by people who were on their phones. This is where the initial statistic of people on cell phones being four times more likely to cause accidents comes from.
Just thought I'd reiterate. There have been loads of studies. They've used several methods. They've all come to the same conclusions. Imagined weaknesses in assumed methods of unread studies do not negate their findings.
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: First, I never claimed that cellphones made anyone a better driver.
That wasn't directed specifically at you. Several people on this thread have said that they drive better on a cell phone. Others have said that they don't drive worse on a cell phone. Neither statement has any basis in fact, and both are disproven by the preponderance of the evidence.
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: I just said, like AJ did, that I'm always distracted in some way, as is everyone I've ever ridden with save for my grandpa, who never drives more than 35 or farther than 3 miles from his house.
Good point. I'm going to go drink a fifth of tequila and drive to Denver. Heck, I was going to have my stereo on anyway, so what's the difference? Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Actually, the first study that came out looking at "actual" cell phone use in real driving situations was fatally flawed. They could not distinguish between cell phone calls happening in the moments leading up to the crash and post-crash calls for assistance.
It is rather interesting to note that the evidence for impairment from direct observational studies always yields larger magnitudes of impairment due to distraction than do studies of actual usage during real-life driving conditions.
I believe there's a very obvious reason for this. People in real life (not contrived) situations tend to moderate their behavior.
I don't know of a study that compares cell phone use during long drives on empty highways versus non-cell phone use, but I suspect that there'd be some evidence that'd be pro-cell phone use if it kept drowsy drivers awake.
Sadly, there aren't enough studies under enough conditions. I would no more support a ban of cell phone use based on current data than I would support the advice that says it's okay to use them under any situation.
Basically, my take on it is completely personal. Every driver is responsible for operating safely. If a cell phone (or other distraction) keeps you from performing the driving task safely under the current conditions, then you need to stop it.
And I also think that people need to be honest with themselves about their own limitations. I KNOW I can't safely talk on a cell phone and drive in even moderate traffic, or in a parking lot, or anywhere that requires repeated and rapid changes in where you focus your attention while driving. I just can't do it and feel safe. So I don't.
On a highway with 20 miles between exits and no other cars in sight, I would be much more comfortable using a cell phone.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I wonder where you're getting this information. In the study I read, not only were they able to tell the difference between calls during and after crashes, they were also able to differentiate between calls ended 5 and 15 minutes before crashes, and analyze the difference between their effects and the likelihood of distraction. And they've been fairly similar to the results I've seen in other tests with other methods. I don't know of any tests involving direct observation that report a significantly higher level of distraction than the first one. Perhaps we're thinking of different studies.
I actually looked up many of these studies in their original periodicals when I was in pharmacy school, and analyzed them with the techniques I was taught in the classes I had on the subject. I also went to pharmacy school at the same university where some of these tests were being performed, and although I wasn't personally acquainted with the professors performing them (they were on the other side of campus in the psych department), I discussed them with a couple of my professors who knew them (in fact, once it came up in my statistics class), and they seemed to approve of the tests and the people running them on a personal/professional level. All the studies I read, performed on and off my campus, seemed pretty solid to me, and I never found any good studies showing contrary data (which, again, would be worth a lot to some people) or responses to them in these periodicals that said what you're saying. Unfortunately it's harder to get my hands on the full-text of many of these studies online to discuss them directly, but I'd like to hear where you're getting this information from.
I'm off to work now, but I'll be keeping an eye out here.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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quote:That said, that wouldn't be my response to the guy who was in your parking spot, Verily. Laughing things off is a good response if it's a situation that you can resolve yourself, or if it's one in which there isn't really anything you can do one way or another. In this situation you needed to get it resolved.
Oh, I meant after the fact. While the situation was ongoing, it had to be dealt with, no doubt about it. But I'm still annoyed and angered by it when I think of it now, and I know that's not productive. Tante's method would be healthier for me, but I'm not a naturally happy person. Actually, I don't even need to laugh about it--I'd settle for indifference, if I could acheive it.
quote:So how long was it until he moved his car? And where you parked in the meantime (when you were going door to door and such), just out of curiosity?
Just a few minutes from the time of our encounter--during which time I was standing right outside the front door of the building, watching him. I may have been avoiding confrontation, but I still didn't want him to think I could be bullied like that. And I was parked alongside the street, where visitors to our building are supposed to be.
Posts: 1814 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I fall in with Speed, Click & Clack on this one. A significant number of the people around me I see cutting across three lanes without signalling into someone's barely-sufficient buffer space have a phone in one hand. And the studies I've seen agree that speakerphone or hands-free sets don't take away the danger.
We have a cell phone. If it rings, the passenger answers it. Or we pull over to answer it. Or we let the voice mail get it and retrieve it as soon as it's reasonable to do so. It's just fine to have one, and yes, they're great for emegencies and that last thing you forgot to get from the supermarket. But while driving? I just find it hard to believe anyone really *needs* to talk while driving, 99% of the time.
You can't do anything about the need to bring kids with you somewhere. The phone is a choice.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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It seems to me that doing statistical analysis to provide proof only goes so far in that it's hard to get good data one way or another.
But:
If I had videotape of the woman trying to make a three point turn, or of the various drivers I've seen looking at their phone instead of the road, or wandering across lanes of traffic while they yak on the phone, does this adequately demonstrate that it is unsafe to drive while talking on the phone?
Would that serve the same purpose that statistical evidence would?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:If I had videotape of the woman trying to make a three point turn, or of the various drivers I've seen looking at their phone instead of the road, or wandering across lanes of traffic while they yak on the phone, does this adequately demonstrate that it is unsafe to drive while talking on the phone?
Not unless you compared it to how they drive when they're not on the phone.
Nor would it provide any information as to whether it's possible to drive safely while on the phone.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Having been passed on an open highway like I was standing still (I was actually doing about 75 mph) by our esteemed host, I'd just like to say I'd rather he didn't talk on the cellphone while he's behind the wheel.
posted
I think it's pretty much common sense that distracted driving can be dangerous. However, I think there are already laws on the books to cover that. If you're driving recklessly, then you are liable for what happens. Personally, I don't care if the person that's driving recklessly was on the phone, eating a cheeseburger, changing the radio station or just plain idiotic, if they're driving recklessly and they cause an accident they should suffer the consequences. Since we can't possibly write specific laws to cover every single possible distraction, then I think we should just let well enough alone with the laws we already have on the books.
Some people can talk on the phone and drive and not suffer any more distraction than if they were chatting with a passenger. some people can't. It's up to you, as a responsible adult, to know your limits. I never dial a phone while I'm driving. I will dial at a light, or if I'm stopped in traffic. That's because dialing takes too much of my attention away from the road and I know, as a responsible adult, that I shouldn't do that. I will talk on the phone however, because I don't find that it is an impairment to my driving. It's certainly much less of an impairment than four screaming kids in the back of the van, let me tell you.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Speed,the study I'm referring to was several years ago, out of Canada. It was the very first study relating cell phone use to actual crashes, and they tried to say that they were able to figure out whether the cell phone use was pre- or post-crash, but the fact was that their measures of the time of the call and the time of the crash were inaccurate to the point where they really couldn't tell for sure. I don't recall the authors, but it was one of those "nice try" kinds of things.
They did follow-ups with some of the drivers, as I recall, but it still wasn't very convincing.
I haven't followed this issue for a long time. To me, it's kind of a no-brainer. If you are driving in conditions that are taxing your attention, you shouldn't do anything that would distract you, and you should not tolerate distractions from others in your vehicle. Period. The driver is responsible for safe operation. Failing that, they are to blame for the crash should one occur.
I don't think there's a need to pick on cell phones per se. Really, it's a matter of teaching people to be aware of the situations they are in and adjust their behavior accordingly. If we taught drivers that, we wouldn't have to worry about the relative contributions of various distractors.
As for newer research on this issue: I'd be interested in some references if you'd like to send them along. It's possible someone came up with a methodology that will surprise me. There are some pretty smart people out there doing research. But let's just say I'm a skeptic when it comes to things that aren't actually recordable reliably by an average cop responding to a crash scene. Statements about distractions, drowsiness, seatbelt use, and several other things routinely recorded on crash reports are just not reliable. In most states, they don't even have a spot to record something like cell phone usage.
Anyway, if you have some reports that I should look at, please send the references. I'd be interested in seeing what researchers have come up with to get around the limitations of the actual crash data.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Several people on this thread have said that they drive better on a cell phone. Others have said that they don't drive worse on a cell phone. Neither statement has any basis in fact, and both are disproven by the preponderance of the evidence
Actually, I don't see how the evidence can prove/disprove an individual case for specific circumstances.
Like someone mentioned earlier, I find that talking on the phone makes me more alert when driving down an empty highway for several hours, which is quite common here in rural Minnesota.
I would agree that many people find ways to be distracted (intentionally or not), and that increases the risk of accidents. But in all honesty, that's never going to go away. The state can outlaw talking on cell phones, eating, applying makeup, or whatever else might cause a distraction, but people will find other ways to let their mind wander from the monotonous task of driving.
So what would you suggest, some type of device that can somehow monitor your attention level to make sure that a minimum number of neurons are being dedicated to the task of driving? I think the current laws regarding reckless driving are sufficient. If not, those laws should be updated. Adding a different law for every different scenario and device for each state just creates confusion without necessarily helping anything.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I talk on the phone when I'm on the freeway. I have class or some other event four nights a week, and I don't talk on the phone while I'm at work. That means if I want to talk to someone on the phone at all, it is while I am on the way to something. I am rarely just at home with nothing else to do but talk, unless it is Sunday afternoon or I am about to go to bed.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:If I had videotape of the woman trying to make a three point turn, or of the various drivers I've seen looking at their phone instead of the road, or wandering across lanes of traffic while they yak on the phone, does this adequately demonstrate that it is unsafe to drive while talking on the phone?
Not unless you compared it to how they drive when they're not on the phone.
Nor would it provide any information as to whether it's possible to drive safely while on the phone.
Ok, good points. But it seems to me they could be incorporated into a study. My major point being that videotapes of driving behavior could bypass the need for data from crashes.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
To put it lightly, I very much dislike all people who talk on their cell phones while driving. This is my BIGGEST pet peeve. Even if it's friends or family that call. If I know that they are driving, I'll ask if its an emergency. If not, I'll tell them to call me back, then hang up. The last accident I was in, involved me stopped at a stop light and 5 cars running into me. All of those drivers got out and were on their phones. Not with their insurance, but saying something to the effect of "I'll have to call you back. I just into an accident." If you feel its really that important, you can wait to pull over, instead of putting yourself and everyone else on the road at risk.
Also, Mythbusters did an expiriment on cell phone driving and showed that it is just as dangerous, if not more so, to be on a phone as it is to be drunk. I also call BS on the whole 'dropping your phone'. No one does that unless they get into an accident.
Seriously, people need to stop being stubborn about this. If you think it makes you more alert or less tired or whatever, stop rationalizing this to yourselves. You probably shouldn't be driving then. Get off the road, take a nap, get something to eat, walk around, I don't care. But stop putting others at risk.
Posts: 298 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
The big question is how did he manage to drive, look at porn, and weave at the same time. Now that's multi-tasking. Not to mention getting the loom into the front seat.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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