posted
Because most of the minimum wage jobs my dad hired adults for were music majors. Some of them actually worked in the field...but even those made so little money they had to work, college degree or not, in low paying side jobs just to make ends meet....
Keep in mind that I played 9 instruments in High School by the end of it....three of them well enough to play varsity band music at a national level.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Elizabeth: OK, and another question. Has anyone been to a school that caters to performing arts? There is a very good one in our area, and I am just wondering if anyone has any experience with one. I know there are many musicians on the forum.
My daughter has said no. She could go now. Our son is not sure. And I am not sure about the academics, They are both very bright, and excellent students.
This is anecdotal but I think it is indicative of a general Theme at "Perf arts schools." Where I grew up the major school like this was SOTA, school of the Arts n San Francisco.
The real problem with this school was that it did a TERRIBLE job of preparing people for the real world. It is weak in academics and the culture is quite accepting of drug use and or abuse on and off campus. I knew people that went there and got stoned everyday. I went to a Catholic school, and was heavy into the arts there. Public schools IMO will tend to have less money or interest for arts, music, acting etc, and more focus on sports and moneymaking endeavors. Even the arts program at my school was not a zero sum game, we never made back the budget of any production we put on.
Basically I recommend, as a current upper division Music major at a major university (so it worked for me anyway) is to encourage your kids in the arts, but make absolutely sure that they are skilled and advanced in other areas. This will not only enhance their art, but also recommend them to the powers that be when it comes time for a college search. This is years away, but college admissions is a tougher game than ever, and you want your kids to have the choices they need when it comes time to move away.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Good luck with your decisions and DO NOT LET THE CHILDREN STUDY MUSIC AS THEIR MAJOR IN COLLEGE!!
Keep us informed!
Hey Boog, I respect you and you know what your talking about with music, but this is totally unfair. Not only is it demeaning to me and other music majors to hear you say that (and yourself?), But it is assuming a level of control of one's kids that I think is undesirable and unhealthy. People have got to make choices in life with their OWN needs and wants in mind. If you can't be who you are alone, away from your parents control at 18, at least to some extent, then that is unhealthy. Furthermore, as in my music department, many many many Music majors are renessaince types, and it is increasingly common (at least in the University of California) to double major in two liberal arts, or a liberal art and a science, earning a combined degree or two degrees in a little over 4 years. This is what I am doing, and I highly recommend it to anyone as a way of getting the best of their education. So LET your kids make their own futures.
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Also, unless you have completely unrealistic expectations of your own future in music (e.g., I will be the next Yo-Yo Ma), then you really can get a job in music. It may not be the highest-paying job, but you don't major in music because you want money. You major in music because you love music.
I majored in music in undergrad, got a master's degree, and am now working on finishing up my PhD in music theory. I will be a professor in the next few years. You can major in music and be successful and happy. It's hard work--MUCH harder than most people outside of music think. Still, I find it to be pretty darn rewarding.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Orincoro, thank you. What you said is exactly what I am afraid of.
As for a career in music. Hee hee. At the town fair, I watched two high school boys singing and playing guitar who were really good. I thought to myself, "That could be Aidan in a few years."
A while later, this cheesy wedding band came out to play. The guys were about sixty, but still thinking they were real catches, and were total grimy sleazebags. I thought to myself, "Eek. This, too, could be Aidan in a few years."
So, I agree with Kwea that there is not necesarily a lot of money in music, but I also disagree with him, because I think there is.
We pay the guitar teacher twenty-five dollars per half hour for a lesson. The trombone teacher gets fifteen, plus seventeen a person for the jazz group she has, which has about ten kids in it. She has a full lesson schedule, a trombone group which hires out, and she often plays in the area. She loves what she does.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Well, I guess that I sort of stirred up a hornets' nest, for the which I apologize.
My feelings, after a double major (one of which was music) and a graduate degree (in music theory no less, Megan), is that music would be a great hobby. By this I mean playing on the side, writing and teaching occasionally, etc. I eventually went back to school and got a degree in telecommunications management.
There is generally one (1) music teacher (maybe 2) on a high school campus. How many math teachers are there at each school (science, English, history, etc.?)? I watched here in California when the arts were cut from the various districts' budgets (before the football program, for example) forcing the districts to cut music teachers. It has picked up a tad, but is still nowhere close to what it was in the 60s.
The broadening of your horizons that comes with study and practise in the arts is great. You will enrich your life with this, I promise. I do not feel that it should be the major course of study. A music minor would be great and you might still be able to conduct a school band or choir with this kind of background; but, I do not recommend that students study music as a major anymore.
Am I somewhat jaded? I guess so. I truly enjoy analyzing a score for the theory within, not to mention playing or writing. But it (that is music as a course of study) is not as practical as it once was. A rich and fulfilling life should take a backseat to lower levels on Maslow's scale. Please make music the minor course of study.
Please remember that this is just my personal opinion and that it is worth exactly what you paid for it. Your results may differ.
Posts: 101 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I am currently in music school right now so I know a lot of music majors. I also know many people that are recently graduated. It is harder to make a living with a music degree and everyone is not cut out for it. I think you should go into a music degree with realistic expectations of your future. I would recommend speaking with your teacher very frankly about your skill level and your potential. No one should think that a sucessful career in music just falls into your lap.
I do not think that anyone should be discouraged from doing something they love. I know that there is a good chance that I will not be able to make a living off of just music, but I have to try. I cannot pass up the oppurtunity to have a job that I love to go to, and I would not encourage anyone to do so.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
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"There is generally one (1) music teacher (maybe 2) on a high school campus. How many math teachers are there at each school (science, English, history, etc.?)?"
Very good point. And the music directors/teachers tend to stay in for a lifetime!
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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And, they can also teach at colleges and universities, tons of which have music programs. The key to succeeding with a music major is, as Allegra and I (and Elizabeth?) have both said, is to be realistic in your expectations.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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As for why you stirred up a hornets' nest, boogashaga, that primarily has to do with the dismissal out-of-hand of the educational choices of several of us. Just because it turned out not to be the right choice for you doesn't mean it's not the right choice for anyone.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I've played music for almost 12 years though I gave it up for college. But I definately recomend a music camp. My personal suggestions is a "jazz band camp" where both can go to the same one. And its the best music in the world
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DO NOT LET THE CHILDREN STUDY MUSIC AS THEIR MAJOR IN COLLEGE!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with this also. Don't let your children study music unless they know what they are getting into. (12 hours of practice a day, strugglign to get by-- unless they're genius' of course)
Posts: 17 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Sorry, I should clarify. I was big into music (jazz) in high school and could've went to a music school. I love it. But ened up deciding against it while many of my friends went to music schools. Most of them are practicing at least 8 hours a day to keep up with the rigors of music school and though they do like it, it was not what they expected. I think unless someone not only loves to play music, but to PRACTICE music also, don't let them major in music.
Sure I look back and wish I could do more music, but i think what i'm doing with my life now is much more fullfilling and meaninful then being a musician.
Posts: 17 | Registered: Nov 2005
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If anyone is looking for oportunities to PLAY professionally (as a career, that is), might I recommend the various branches of the military? You can play for 20 years and get a retirement package. The fact that it is for "the military" may scare some people away from what could be a great chance to play and see the world to boot!
Also, cruise lines offer you the opportunity to make a living by playing aboard ships. This means that you will be away from any family that you have for quite a period as the ships are almost always out. You will be back in port for only very short time periods. My audition for a cruise line actually took place over the phone!
These could be two different choices from the usual options of Las Vegas-style shows, symphnoy work, or taking a shot at studio/movie jobs. Music is a tough way to make a living unless you get into pop (or teach somewhere), but it can be a great hobby. My brother had a bumper sticker, I believe, that read:
"Real Musicians Have Day Jobs"
Megan--What is your dissertation about? As a theorist myself, I was just wondering.
Posts: 101 | Registered: Nov 2005
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I'm in the process of writing my proposal, so it's not 100% solidified at the moment. That said, I'm looking at leitmotif in film music and how it differs in treatment and development from that in opera.
The military most certainly would not work for everyone (wouldn't have for me: a) I play cello, b) I'm short and out of shape, and c) I'm really not interested in participating in the military in any capacity).
And, I do wish you would quit trying to discourage people from careers in music. Again, just because it didn't work out for you doesn't mean that it won't work for everyone. Many, many people major in music in a variety of specialities and succeed just fine.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Sorry I took a while to answer, I spent the weekend tending a life. I have never seen an "American" anything movie, so that wasn't a factor. First, you want the camp to be an intense or special musical experience. So, you need to have more maturity with all the participants. There are awsome high school age musicians out there. It is tons of fun to play with them. Second, thats too young to be at any kind of "away" camp. I've been a Scoutmaster for years. I won't take boy camping, for longer than just overnight, unless a parent comes too, until he is 12. It just isn't fun for the boy, the other boys, or me.
Now, on the next subject; I majored in music. (Bachelor, Masters in another fieid) The really important workplace skills that I learned in University, (including the Masters program) I learned playing in the Orchestra. The Masters program was technology, which changes all the time. Orchestra performance skills are eternal.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I have to jump bacj in on Megan's side once again Boog, and say that it is ONE thing to get a minor in music, (at the UC, this does not require one minute of theory training at all), and a TOTALLY OTHER thing to Major in it. Music Majors "endure" one of the most intensive programs of all her at UC davis because we are expected to be a part of a thinking talking, performing community. The minors are rarely part of this, and are nowhere near the competence or experience levels of the majors.
As for a CAREER in music. Egads. This is the toughest part of every thanksgiving for me lately. People IMO have completely forgotten what College is FOR! College is for learning how to learn, and about learning what you need to know about yourself, history, your interests and dealing with others. It is NO surprise to me that Junior College entrants in their third year are lacking in the ability to follow a course syllabus, work with others, understand the expectations of a teacher or do the work seriously. This is not always the case, but there is a marked difference between those who have 4 year experience and those who don't (Albiet yes, a difference in knowing how to attend a 4 year).
Boog didn't adress my point in that even if you want your kids NOT to major in music, if they can't make that decision for themselves, that is a problem. By the time most kids go to college, parents and child are strugling with the concept that the kids is independent in actions, but needing alot of support and guidance. The thing is many parents foolishly tie parenting in with paying. This is not the same thing, if you don't pay, that doesn't mean you can't parent, if you parent it doesn't mean you HAVE to pay. If you DO pay, that doesn't mean you should have TOTAL control over your kids decisions. If my parents had told ME what I was going to study, I wouldn't have studied at all.
"Orchesta performance skills are eternal"
Nothing has changed my life more in the past few years than being expected to keep up in ensemble performance, mostly only music majors get the bulk of those opportunites and they are highly valuable for your self-esteem, your confidence and you skill at musicianship. Kudos to that Artemisia!
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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"If you DO pay, that doesn't mean you should have TOTAL control over your kids decisions. If my parents had told ME what I was going to study, I wouldn't have studied at all."
So true! It amazes me that parents would try to decide what their children want to study in college.
At this point, I am just trying to figure out what they want to study, and how much I should or should not push them.
My parents were not pushy at all. I wish they were more pushy. I had friends whose parents were controlling even AFTER college. I certainly do not want to be that way, either.
It could just as easily be said of english majors: "What are you going to do with that? How can you make money?"
I've sort of skimmed through some of this thread, but I thought I would throw this out there. It is in Ontario, which I guess is kind of far for you, but it's an *amazing* camp. VERY professional, famous faculty and staff (Ed Bickert, Phil Nimmons, Mike Murley and others taught me how to improvise), who all teach there because they love it. There's also a large emphasis on fun, while managing to cram more activity than you'd believe possible into a week. Very well-run, lots of friendly counsellors ("mentors") to look after littl'uns, and while the camp food is ....camp food, it's edible.
Both the Jazz Camp and IMC taught me more in one week each year than the rest of my high school music classes combined (even though we had the best music teacher ever at my high school to boot). I couldn't find age limits for each specific camp on the site, but it says they teach kids 7-18, although the focus is on kids from Grade 7-high school. You could email and ask if you're curious.
Seriously, if it doesn't work out to more money than going somewhere down there, this is an awesome, awesome camp.
Testimonial done. Over and out.
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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OK, looks perfect. Even though he is already a little rocker, I think he might prefer the jazz camp. How far do you think that is from Massachusetts?
Again with the need for a trust fund!
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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Well, it's only about, ohhh, 450 miles from Boston to the camp, if you wanted to drive. Probably less than 400 to Toronto though, where they can catch the camp bus! I just looked on Air Canada out of curiousity, and tickets are about $360(Canadian) return per person from Boston to TO.
Soooo... it would be a little expensive, yeah. On the plus side, the Jazz Camp has no age limit, so you could go with them!
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I could?? I would love that, actually. Hmm. 450 miles is not that much. We have driven farther to see Donna the Buffalo, for Pete's sake.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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In that case, if you can afford it, do it! The Jazz Camp is a lot smaller than IMC, and more relaxed, although it doesn't run for nearly as long. But I always liked it best. It's a beautiful area too to boot. With a frigid but refreshing lake, and more stars than you've probably ever seen. We also saw the Northern lights a couple nights when I was there.
Best email "Mom" to make sure that age limits haven't been brought in since a few years ago when I was there though. And definitely feel free to email me more about it later if you're seriously thinking of it and have questions (sometimes I forget to check Hatrack for days, or weeks, on end). I can give you more info or real life one-time-at-band-camp anecdotes.
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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what a great Mom! I hope your kids love you for this, Camp is so often the highlight of people's childhoods, I am glad you are trying to make good memories for your kids.
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Astaril, it really does look like the perfect camp for them, but finances are an issue.
I am going to check it out, though, if not for this summer then maybe for next. Plus, it gives me something to look for closer to here. In other words, it is a good Camp Barometer.
Posts: 10890 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
It is definitely expensive. And, to be honest, the older they are, the more they're going to be capable of getting out of it, right? So waiting another year or so might not be a bad idea anyway. Or you could keep it in mind for when they're in high school, even.
Glad to have given you ideas though.
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