posted
I think this thread has made me realize more then anything else on what I missed out on growing up in an interfaith household.
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posted
That sounds familiar, KQ; in our faith we're also told not to work on the Sabbath, but for those in life-saving professions such as doctors, nurses, firefighters, they're exempt or excused or whatever. They try not to work on Sunday if they can help it, but if they can't, they're under no condemnation.
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quote:Originally posted by ctm: If you aren't cooking or using electricity, where is the hot food coming from?
We do all our cooking before Shabbos starts on Friday. And we leave a big pot of soup and a big pot of cholent over a low, covered flame (or in the crockpot), where it stays hot all Shabbos.
Some people use an electric hotplate to heat up food, as long as it has been turned on before the Sabbath. We keep one on a timer, set to go on with enough advance time to heat up our lunch food. You can't heat up foods with liquid in them, like soups or stews, though - those need to go into a crockpot or stay on a low, covered flame, the way Tante says.
We also heat up a large, electric coffee urn full of water so that we can make tea and coffee on the Sabbath.
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posted
I've got to admit that I'm not entirely sure where the Mormon concept of the "Sabbath" comes from, to be honest. Because if they're trying to keep Jewish law, they're doing it wrong; is there some equivalent part of The Book of Mormon that I missed which lays out what constitutes "work" for Latter-Day Saints?
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I've got to admit that I'm not entirely sure where the Mormon concept of the "Sabbath" comes from, to be honest. Because if they're trying to keep Jewish law, they're doing it wrong; is there some equivalent part of The Book of Mormon that I missed which lays out what constitutes "work" for Latter-Day Saints?
I was trying to convince a friend of mine who was raised in a Mormon family that it is not indicated anywhere what day of the week the Sabbath falls on, other then the 7th day. He insists that in the bible it specifically says Sunday, but couldn't find where. I told him it definitely does not say Sunday in the Hebrew Scriptures, but he is still sticking to his story.
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quote:I've got to admit that I'm not entirely sure where the Mormon concept of the "Sabbath" comes from, to be honest.
General Conference talks.
I'm sure Matt could explain the evolution of the Sabbath throughout Mormon history, but I'd say that the Sabbath is observed the way it is currently because the general authorities emphasize in General Conference that we should do so.
If you're asking where the GAs get it, there's probably a few answers. First is that they are impressed to emphasize, and reasons may be to set Mormons apart, to keep the ten commandments, to create a day for families to hang out together, and to "tithe" a day of the week to the Lord.
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quote:Originally posted by Ela: Some people use an electric hotplate to heat up food, as long as it has been turned on before the Sabbath. We keep one on a timer, set to go on with enough advance time to heat up our lunch food. You can't heat up foods with liquid in them, like soups or stews, though - those need to go into a crockpot or stay on a low, covered flame, the way Tante says.
And everything needs to be at least 2/3 cooked before Shabbat (ben drusai is 2/3, right?) or you can't even put it on a hotplate that's over a certain temperature.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I've got to admit that I'm not entirely sure where the Mormon concept of the "Sabbath" comes from, to be honest. Because if they're trying to keep Jewish law, they're doing it wrong; is there some equivalent part of The Book of Mormon that I missed which lays out what constitutes "work" for Latter-Day Saints?
First of all, LDS (and most Christians AFAIK) observe the sabbath on Sunday because the Savior was resurrected on the "first day of the week (Mark 16:9)." Hence Sunday is the Lord's day. This also follows the pattern set by the ancient apostles (Acts 20:7).
Despite being on a different day, the sabbath serves the same purpose. It's a day to rest from our usual labors and pursuits and turn our hearts and minds towards God. Indeed, sabbath observance is confirmed in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. See this page out of the Church-published Guide to the Scriptures.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I've got to admit that I'm not entirely sure where the Mormon concept of the "Sabbath" comes from, to be honest. Because if they're trying to keep Jewish law, they're doing it wrong; is there some equivalent part of The Book of Mormon that I missed which lays out what constitutes "work" for Latter-Day Saints?
You've gotten some good answers, Tom. I would just say that we aren't trying to keep the modern Jewish law; we do both start in the same place, though, in the Old Testament, that says not to work on the Sabbath. As Mistaben said, it's also repeated in other LDS scriptures.
As far as what constitutes "work" for Latter-day Saints, it's a combination of a few specific rules laid out by prophets and apostles, and some more general guidelines by which we can judge the appropriateness of any other activity that they haven't specifically encouraged or forbidden.
Examples:
Don't work - at a paying job, around the house, etc.
Don't seek entertainment - that one's a more difficult one to define and different Mormons will define it in different ways.
Don't shop or spend money, as you are encouraging others to work.
Do rest from your everyday labors.
Do go to Church and do "the Lord's work".
Do spend time with family.
Do prepare simple meals with "an eye single to the glory of God".
Do read scriptures, ponder, pray, and do other things that are uplifting and bring you closer to God and your family.
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posted
See, Minerva, we'd define that as fellowship.
I was thinking more along the lines of going to the Super Bowl. (Better run for cover - that's a touchy issue!)
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posted
ben drusai is indeed 2/3, but to put in BACK on a flame, it must be fully cooked (ben drusai only helps if it is remaining on a flame, not being returning to one).
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posted
This is going to sound silly, and I'm not sure why it popped into my head, but if you bought tickets to a sports event (or anything you need a ticket for) prior to the Sabbath for an event that took place during the Sabbath, would it still be permissable to attend? Or would the exchange of a ticket for admission be a violation?
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posted
(You know the trouble with typing an answer quickly right before running out the door? You end up with two verbs fighting. )
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posted
Problem the first: carrying the tickets. Problem the second: presenting the tickets might indeed be ma'aseh u'matan, a financial transaction (I'm not sure if it qualifies or not).
In any case, attending a sporting event is really not in the spirit of Shabbos, regardless of whether it might be possible to get around the letter of the law or not.
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posted
I know people who went to free college sports games (division III games). They had their tickets waiting for them at will call, and then the will call person just waved them through.
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posted
See, for me it would be less about the carrying and the actual paying, than it would be about the event itself not being in keeping with the spirit of the Sabbath; and also with not participating in something that encourages other people to work on the Sabbath.
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posted
Jenna, I agree. As I said, it may be possible to get around the letter of the law. But that would not make it any more in keeping with the spirit of the day.
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posted
So, if having a ticket on your person isn't even appropriate, do you need to check all your pockets for lint or kleenex or small change if you leave the house? What about your housekey?
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posted
On that note, I heard ... tell me if this is true ... that a Jewish tailor should never stick his needles into his lapel, the way other tailors would do (for safekeeping or to get them out of the way), in case he forgets and gets caught on the Sabbath carrying his tools.
Is this a real rule or just an Urban Legend?
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quote:So, if having a ticket on your person isn't even appropriate, do you need to check all your pockets for lint or kleenex or small change if you leave the house?
Yep.
quote: What about your housekey?
Can't carry that either (unless you live in an area with an eruv). People find places to leave them near an outside door, leave the door unlocked, or have special pieces of jewelry made (or a belt) that have the key included as an integral piece.
posted
And don't stay in hotels that use electronic keycards for the doors. Or if you have to, bring tape to tape over the door latch. <sigh>
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quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: On that note, I heard ... tell me if this is true ... that a Jewish tailor should never stick his needles into his lapel, the way other tailors would do (for safekeeping or to get them out of the way), in case he forgets and gets caught on the Sabbath carrying his tools.
Is this a real rule or just an Urban Legend?
It's a real rule that has been misunderstood and twisted. (Can we say broken telephone? )
What the Gemara actually says (and I know this because I just looked it up with a little help from Google) is that a tailor should not walk outside with a needle in his collar shortly before Shabbos begins (generally agreed to be either 30 or 60 minutes before), lest he forget to remove it in time and still be carrying it an hour or two later.
This problem is unlikely on Monday, or even Friday morning.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: And don't stay in hotels that use electronic keycards for the doors. Or if you have to, bring tape to tape over the door latch. <sigh>
Or share the room with non-Jews. Worked for me at multiple Hatrack cons.
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posted
Actually, here's my real question: As new technologies come up that no one's ever considered before, who decides whether they are appropriate or not on the Sabbath? Is there an overriding law that you could use to make the judgement yourself? Or do you wait for those in authority to make a statement on it before you decide? And if it hasn't been prohibited yet, do you do it, or not do it while you're waiting?
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Problem the first: carrying the tickets. Problem the second: presenting the tickets might indeed be ma'aseh u'matan, a financial transaction (I'm not sure if it qualifies or not).
I don't believe it does, since the ticket is merely proof that the transaction happened in the past.
But you're right about it being inappropriate. I mean, you can leave a TV on and go and watch it on Shabbat, but that's incredibly inappropriate, too.
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quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: See, for me it would be less about the carrying and the actual paying, than it would be about the event itself not being in keeping with the spirit of the Sabbath; and also with not participating in something that encourages other people to work on the Sabbath.
Well, Judaism is a religion of law. I can eat pizza with veggie "meat" on it, and there's no problem, even if it comes close to tasting like the real thing, because I haven't violated the law.
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quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: You can use a key, but not a key card?
Are there any hotels that even use keys anymore? That must be becoming quite a problem.
There are keycards that work manually. Or there used to be, at any rate. But it's the electrical ones that are the problem.
When I was in college, and first getting observant, I remember a few times that I was home for vacations. On Shabbat, if I stayed at home, I was pretty much trapped inside the entire time. Why? Because my parents have an alarm system, and if I opened the door, it'd turn off the green light on the alarm panel.
Could be worse, though. A friend of mine's parents have motion detectors in their house.
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posted
Question about bikes not being ok. The article says the reason is because the risk of fixing a tire or chain. What would be wrong with riding it on the street one lives on, and just leaving it if it breaks.
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posted
We don't make the distinction. The situation you describe isn't the ordinary one. Bicycles aren't cheap, and the idea that you'd leave yours if the chain just slipped off... well, it's possible, but we don't make distinctions like that.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: But you're right about it being inappropriate. I mean, you can leave a TV on and go and watch it on Shabbat, but that's incredibly inappropriate, too.
I have a friend who covered his TV with a georgeous cloth for Shabbos. Right before the Patriots game, the cloth happened to slip off. And what do you know, the TV was on. Even more incredibly, it was tuned to the right channel.
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posted
Why can't you just roll the bike home if it broke? Even flat tires roll. I don't know know if they roll when the chain is messed up, though.
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posted
But they aren't allowed to carry anything or push baby strollers (I'm just using other info in this thread)
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posted
Yes thats true but then there's the problem of the bike breaking in general. If the tires go flat that counts as cutting or tearing and is breaking Shabbat the same is true with a chain break
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quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: Thanks for the link, Lisa!
Wait ... breaking is breaking Sabbath rules? If something just breaks?
From the way I understand the answers, its fixing things that is not allowed. Because of that, anything with a risk of breaking that can be reasonably avoided doing, should be.
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posted
Acually things like tearing and cutting slong with writing aren't allowed either the way i was taught was along with the 39 it was basicallt the thought that they were creating or desroying
Sorry for my confusing replies
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quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: But they aren't allowed to carry anything or push baby strollers (I'm just using other info in this thread)
Even if there is an eruv, you can't. And a broken bicycle (like a broken anything, really) has a status of muktzeh. You can't handle such things on Shabbat.
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quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: Thanks for the link, Lisa!
Wait ... breaking is breaking Sabbath rules? If something just breaks?
From the way I understand the answers, its fixing things that is not allowed. Because of that, anything with a risk of breaking that can be reasonably avoided doing, should be.
Breaking and fixing are both forbidden. Tying permanent knots and untying them are both forbidden. Writing and erasing are both forbidden. And so on.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: There are keycards that work manually. Or there used to be, at any rate.
There still are. The non-chain motel I stayed in last year had 'em.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Out of curioisty would having umm... acts that may or may not lead to procreation violate or not violate the Sabbath? Just incase I may or may not fall in love with a Jewish girl. (Hey I may have some preferences but I'm not limited to them).
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quote:Originally posted by mistaben: First of all, LDS (and most Christians AFAIK) observe the sabbath on Sunday because the Savior was resurrected on the "first day of the week." Hence Sunday is the Lord's day.
Except in Israel, LDS will observe the Sabbath on Saturday and in Islamic countries, we'll observe it on Fridays.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Out of curioisty would having umm... acts that may or may not lead to procreation violate or not violate the Sabbath? Just incase I may or may not fall in love with a Jewish girl. (Hey I may have some preferences but I'm not limited to them).
Can't help you out there, Blayne. I recommend not falling in love with a Jewish girl.
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