posted
I haven't heard it used any way but hyperbolic (in your words) in years. Which, of course, is how a word comes to mean something different than what it originally meant.
quote:Originally posted by Steev: The word "ignorant" I thought being used incorrectly to mean being rude to someone was a Utah/Idaho thing. But apparently out here on the eastern shore of Maryland/Virginia they use it like that too.
Where on the Eastern Shore? I went to college in Salisbury, parent's live in OC, and fiance is from a town near Centerville. I'm a chicken necker myself.
I'm a transplant in Pocomoke City.
Posts: 527 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: "the hoi polloi"
>_< ACK! NONONO! You say "the La Brea Tarpits" too, don't you? *glare*
quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: Oh, and my pet peeve: grocery express checkout lanes reading "10 items or fewer." Too fussy; "less" is a perfectly respectable modifier.
Clearly, you were just RAISED wrong. Has no one ever taught you the mnemonic "fewer donuts, less coffee"? If you can count it, modify with "fewer" NOT with "less"! And the whole point of those lanes is counting the items, neh? Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Well, he is right about the polite version of SNAFU. I didn't even know there was a more colorful version until I was in my teens, and I certainly knew the word. (And it has become a word, and not merely an acronym. It even is used as three different parts of speech! )
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Thank y'all for giving me an alternative to put in my brain to replace what I always think - unwillingly - when I hear "SNAFU". Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
(... though clearly, whatever poster I'm being mistaken for must be someone of great brilliance and charm.)
Posts: 326 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:You say "the La Brea Tarpits" too, don't you? *glare*
I don't see what the problem is with "the La Brea Tarpits," since in that case "La Brea" is a proper noun and therefore shouldn't be translated.
Posts: 4534 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold I hate: 12:00 PM
and 12:00 AM
And once more I respectfully disagree. Furthermore, if you would allow 12:01 PM and 12:01 AM, I would argue that this is an inconsistent position. (Unless you insist on 0:01 PM and 0:01 AM, in which case good luck with that.)
quote:Originally posted by rivka: ACK! NONONO! You say "the La Brea Tarpits" too, don't you? *glare*
If I ever had occasion to talk about them, I certainly would.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Clearly, you were just RAISED wrong.
Entirely possible. Pity the people who hire me as a copyeditor. (Although I'm perfectly capable of applying rules I disagree with if such is mandated by a given client's style.)
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Shmuel, you could save me much effort in 2008 by simply telling me for whom you are voting.
Depends who's running, but it might not help you. In the four presidential elections in which I've voted, I've chosen a major-party candidate exactly once. (Clinton, '96.)
Posts: 884 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold I hate: 12:00 PM
and 12:00 AM
And once more I respectfully disagree. Furthermore, if you would allow 12:01 PM and 12:01 AM, I would argue that this is an inconsistent position.
Well, since PM and AM mean 'post (after) meridian' and 'ante (before) meridian', they wouldn't seem to apply at 12:00 because the sun is (theoretically) on the meridian.
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quote:Originally posted by Shmuel: And yet 12:01 PM isn't twelve hours and one minute past noon... the term has moved on from its literal Latin meaning.
(Also, it's ante meridiem, not "meridian.")
OK, although the dictionary seems to recognize 'antemeridian', etc.
No one argues that 12:01 PM means twelve hours and one minute after noon, anymore than 10:14 AM means ten hours and 14 minutes before noon. It means that the time is 12:01, and (separately) that it is afternoon.
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quote:Originally posted by Irregardless: No one argues that 12:01 PM means twelve hours and one minute after noon, anymore than 10:14 AM means ten hours and 14 minutes before noon. It means that the time is 12:01, and (separately) that it is afternoon.
That's a fair distinction. I withdraw my claim that your approach is inconsistent.
Posts: 884 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Irregardless: Well, since PM and AM mean 'post (after) meridian' and 'ante (before) meridian', they wouldn't seem to apply at 12:00 because the sun is (theoretically) on the meridian.
It's this kind of logic that makes people become all apoplectic over usage. Languages seldom follow such exacting rules of logic, and there's really no reason why speakers of one language should follow the rules of another.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
The latin is irrelevant. The term is both nautical and astronomical. Navigators take a "noon reading" where they view a split image of the sun and the horizon. When the image of the sun appears to rise out of the horizon, the navigator calls out "Noon" and his Mate marks the time, in Greenwich time. This gives the meridian, or longitudinal position.
The meridian is also local noon. Not before or after.
Read "Bartelby the Scrivener" by Melville. The lawyer gives the time as 12:00 Meridian, rather than Noon.
As too how anyone decided whether 12:00 AM was midnight or noon, it's a matter of pure ignorance. There is no established value for either, so if someone tells you to "be there at 12:00 PM," you can show up at either Noon or Midnight.
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I always figured that by the time you finished saying "It's 12:00 AM", it was actually a few seconds after the stroke of 12, and therefore in the morning hours. Or vice versa.
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posted
A thread from beyond the grave has come back to haunt us!
Actually, I find it really interesting to read stuff I wrote over two years ago. Some things have changed, but so much has stayed the same.
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posted
My current pet peave is the use of the word "grow" as a transative verb instead of "enlarge" or "expand". Everytime I hear it, its' like finger nails on a chalk board.
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Read "Bartelby the Scrivener" by Melville. The lawyer gives the time as 12:00 Meridian, rather than Noon.
Because a 19th-century short story whose narrator uses language that's deliberately overwrought for his time is an appropriate guide for contemporary usage.
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: As too how anyone decided whether 12:00 AM was midnight or noon, it's a matter of pure ignorance. There is no established value for either, so if someone tells you to "be there at 12:00 PM," you can show up at either Noon or Midnight.
The latest edition of the American Heritage Dictionary disagrees with you, stating unequivocally that "By definition, 12 A.M. denotes midnight, and 12 P.M. denotes noon," although they note that there are enough other people confused on the point "to make it advisable to use 12 noon and 12 midnight where clarity is required." (But note the latter usage is advised to avoid confusing the ignorant, not the reverse.)
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Yes, I have taken Noon readings. I'm not very good at it, but I've done it.
Oh, wait, you could be referring to showing up at midnight when someone says 12:00 AM, or PM.
No, I simply correct them by pointing out that there is no such thing.
As to any dictionary definition that allows for a convention that matches one with the other, this is tantamount to defining Pi as 3, or saying that the solstice is June 21. It might be close enough to describe it to most people, but it isn't true.
The meridian is a thing that is independant of some arbitrary definition. And while most people don't use it directly, time is still calibrated by taking a reading on the meridian. That's why we have leap seconds every few years. Communication satellites, etc. require that time be kept accurately.
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posted
So you're saying that if I say "12 pm" instead of "12 noon," it's going to throw off communications satellites?
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quote:As to any dictionary definition that allows for a convention that matches one with the other, this is tantamount to defining Pi as 3, or saying that the solstice is June 21. It might be close enough to describe it to most people, but it isn't true.
When dealing with how to call different times of day, I think "Is it useful" is a much more important question than "is it true".
Having a convention of whether 12:00 A.M. is noon or midnight is definitely useful.
I hope that saying this doesn't mean I have to turn in my hyperliterals anonymous card.
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"Having a convention of whether 12:00 A.M. is noon or midnight is definitely useful."
Why is it more useful than saying Noon or Midnight?
It seems to me that the only reason to "define" Noon as being 12:00 PM is because in their ignorance, people asked "Is Noon AM or PM?" It would have been more useful to explain that it is neither, because AM means before noon, and PM means after noon.
As it stands, there are plenty of people who see 12:00 AM written and can't remember which that's supposed to mean. How is it useful to add to that confusion?
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Why is it more useful than saying Noon or Midnight?
Because digital clocks don't have a "Midnight" or "Noon" setting.
Another thought -- the entire minute of 12:00 in the middle of the day is actually after the exact moment of noon, which would be the precise moment it goes from 11:59 to 12:00. It actually makes sense to say that 12:00 noon is 12:00 P.M..
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: As it stands, there are plenty of people who see 12:00 AM written and can't remember which that's supposed to mean.
I have yet to meet such a person.
I think most people are aware that 12:00 AM isn't likely to precede 12:00:01 PM, which is what the alternative interpretation would demand.
As for why one would use AM or PM instead of midnight or noon, I should think that would be obvious: it provides a space-saving abbreviation and a standard format. One could design digital clocks that would display "NOON" instead of "12 PM," and one could create timetables in which a stream of AMs and PMs would be broken up by the occasional "Midnight," with an expanded column size to accomodate that, and one could even design computer forms that would accept "Noon" in a field asking for a starting time, but... well, if you think that's the way the world ought to operate, I don't think anything I say will convince you otherwise.
(I'm not even going to get into the matter of time zones -- a wholly pragmatic and relatively recent invention -- making the technical definition of noon entirely irrelevant.)
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Has no one ever taught you the mnemonic "fewer donuts, less coffee"? If you can count it, modify with "fewer" NOT with "less"! And the whole point of those lanes is counting the items, neh? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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