quote:How are young people supposed to by a house, have a child and white picked fences if they can't afford it because of student loans hanging over their heads and credit card debt from just trying to get from one month to the next?
They work their butts off, and they avoid getting credit card debt in the first place.
Credit card debt = bad debt. School loans = good debt. Home mortgage = good debt.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I'm always puzzled when people talk about the death of the American dream...but many times their decisions put them into the situation that they were in. For example, Syn you got a degree in writing because you enjoy writing...and want to write a novel. That was a choice that you made. You could have gotten a degree in business, and done much better financially when you got out of school. It was not the "death" of an American dream that put you out of college in debt with a degree that doesn't put food on the table, it was your choice.
Perhaps that seems mean or cold to say, but I feel I can say it since I put myself in a similar situation. I guess it doesn’t seem as bad to point out something you see as a mistake in someone else, when you admit that you did the same thing. Though perhaps mistake is the wrong word…it is more of a choice that led to a less than perfect outcome. I understand why you wanted a degree in writing and want to write a novel, because I chose to get a degree in psychology for the same reason. It was the life that I wanted. I was making a choice that many people thought was impractical, but it was the life that I wanted, so I made that choice anyway. Because of that, I got a master’s in developmental psychology. I was able to do it without going into debt, since I got a job working for the university and I shared a 30 year old apartment with a friend, but it is still a degree without a lot of options. I didn't get the job because of my parent’s connections; they didn't know anyone at the school. I got it because I worked my ass off as an undergrad and so the professor I worked for wanted me to stay on. However, things were not working out, so after I got my masters I left.
The job I have now didn't need parental connections either. I got a job working for the same grocery store that I worked at in high school and during breaks in college. I was able to get hired back because my old manager remembered my work ethic and wanted me back. I don't make much money now, and I work crazy hours, but I have a lot of room for growth into positions that will pay a lot later on. Do I ever think it sucks that I have a master’s degree and I make less than 20,000 a year (though it is quite a bit more than a made a year ago)? Yes. It can be frustrating at times, but I know if I work hard, I will move into a position where I am very comfortable in a few years (and actually very well off before to long). Would my life have been easier if I had gotten a business degree in college, and then gotten a good paying 9-5 job after college like some of my friends? Yes, things would have been easier for me if I had gone that route, but that is not what I wanted to do at the time. I didn’t want to have a career in the business world. I thought I would have more fun working as a college teacher, and writing on the side. Actually, I still think that is true...but I realize that it won’t happen, so I moved on to something else. Maybe my past choices mean that I have to work harder now, but that is life.
I think many times when people say that they American dream is dead, they don't know what the American dream is. You can still move up without family connections, or prior wealth. You simply have to work your ass off. Not only that, you have to work in a productive manner. I know people who work two jobs, but they don't put everything they have into either job. There are days when I don't feel like going into work, but I go anyway and when I'm there, people don't know I am feeling off. I make sure people think that I love working every day. That is how you move ahead in a company. Could I afford a child at my salary? No...but I wouldn't have a child at my salary, because I know it is not feasible. I don't buy things that I don't have the money for. I don't have anything on my credit card, because I know that I couldn't afford the interest even on one or two big purchases. There are things that I would like to have, but can't afford (like satellite radio) so I don't buy them. I've never bought a $50.00 shirt, because I'd feel nuts buying a shirt with money that could feed me for a week. I don't buy subs or sandwiches to eat at lunch, I bring my own lunch from home. I make my own dinner instead of eating out…and I buy cheap things to make. I buy enough to make a couple days worth of food, and eat leftovers. But before I buy the food, I calculate exactly how much money I am paying per serving. These are the kinds of things that you must do when you have a tight budget. Sometimes you just have to really understand the differences between wants and needs. I'd feel silly complaining about being poor when I have a TV, cable, and an internet connection. I don't think anyone can really be poor when they have those things.
Perhaps I seem insensitive, if so I am sorry. I guess this just hit a nerve with me, because I hate it when people don’t think you can pick yourself up in this country, when you really can. You simply have to really want it, and you have to realize that life isn’t supposed to be all hugs and puppy dogs, it is hard work….but success after working hard can be rewarding.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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I was talking to my uncle the other day about a perception that youth today "want it all". That is - kids want what their parents have, but instead of working for it, they want it now. They graduate uni and want a nice house, a nice car, a good job straight away.
I don't think that's a true generalisation (so few generalisations are!) but I think it does apply to some people.
Me - I'm the youth of today. And I have a house - with a hefty mortgage, and I couldn't have done it without my husband.
But our house is a 50 year old cottage in the "dodgy" side of Perth. It was sold as a "fixer-upper" and I imagine when we resell it, it will be bought for block value and bulldozed. But, it's ok for us. It's shelter, it's comfortable and it's ours. Well, mostly the bank's. But we're working on that.
I have friends who couldn't bear living in it, who would much rather pay rent and have a trendier place in a better location. That's fine - but that's a choice of lifestyle. It's not that they can't afford a home, it's just they can't afford the kind of home they ideally want.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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But what if it's not about wanting it all but wanting the basics? It doesn't make sense that a couple that has a child has to struggle to get quality child care because staying at home with the child AND paying the rent or the morgage isn't the option. What if folks are doing all that they can and STILL not getting anywhere? (And, I don't think I am suited to be a business person. I'd have to be a lot more extraverted than I am, I'd have to be good at a ton of things I just am not good at.)
Here's a question though- Is outsourcing manufacturing jobs really a good thing for people in countries like China or does it just send them to indentured servitude?
I'm not sure if I want it all, but I want to get ahead and feel secure and I just don't right now. Nothing to do about that but to keep working hard at this job and work overtime when they offer it and hope I can do a bit better, but I think it's hopeless right now that I'll ever own a house, let alone a car.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:But what if it's not about wanting it all but wanting the basics?
What basics? Shelter, food, clothing, electricity, running water and sewage? Are you lacking any of those?
quote:What if folks are doing all that they can and STILL not getting anywhere?
What do you mean by "getting anywhere"? Do you mean getting ahead of other people? Because that's another thing I don't think anybody's entitled to.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Nothing to do about that but to keep working hard at this job and work overtime when they offer it and hope I can do a bit better, but I think it's hopeless right now that I'll ever own a house, let alone a car.
And start a savings account. Put aside as much as you can from each paycheck (maybe cut out something non-essential that you buy: music, books, magazines - whatever works for you.) and put it in an account that you do not touch. Preferably one without keycard access.
Work out how much you pay on rent each month, and then work out what kind of house loan you'd be looking at with the equivalent amount on a mortgage repayment.
(For example: our minimum repayment is just under $1200/month: $300/week. When we rented (an admittedly nicer place) we paid $400/week. )
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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Getting anywhere in terms of saving up for retirement or a home or their kid's college education. Getting anywhere in terms of improving their situation... Also the childcare thing. And in this case, it's really not about me who is happy living in my own apartment and not with parents or relatives. At least people, ideally, should be able to get... some sort of stability in their situation with their jobs and families as it really does work better for society.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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To me, the American Dream is that we can do what we want to do - what we really want to do. We can't do everything we want to do, but if we choose the thing that we really want and put our efforts into it, it can be done. We just have to make the right choices.
The housing market is really frustrating me right now. We're in a tiny house that we bought 11 years ago that is now worth between 2x-3x what we paid for it then - and yet with all that equity we still couldn't move, because the cost of all the other houses has gone up by the same ratio, so our equity is just a drop in the bucket compared to what we'd need for a new house big enough for our rather large family.
But it's all about choices - we have chosen that I will not work while the kids are little, so that cuts down our income; we have chosen that we don't want to be slaves to our home, because we'd like to be able to go on vacation now and then - and that choice also limits what we have to put toward a house. Every time I see a new home that I'd love to live in, every time I trip over kids in the hall and bump into people in the bathroom and have no room to put groceries away, I remind myself that it's a choice. We'd rather live this way and have more time with each other, than live in a bigger home where we'd both have to work and we'd have no money for vacation even if we had time to take it. I sigh and I complain sometimes, but it's all my choice.
So most of us (barring Oprah) can't have it all, but if we choose right we can have the things that are most important to us - and maybe it's a good thing, to have to prioritize what's most important and realize that we have to sacrifice some of our wants in order to have what means the most to us. We appreciate it more that way. When we refuse to choose - when we have to have the big wedding and the new car and the nice furniture and a big house and a one-income family and vacations every year, all right now - the choices are thrust upon us; we get way into debt and then end up slaves to our bad choices. We have to decide before we act - what is most important to us? - and always put that first.
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote: I'm not sure if I want it all, but I want to get ahead and feel secure and I just don't right now. Nothing to do about that but to keep working hard at this job and work overtime when they offer it and hope I can do a bit better, but I think it's hopeless right now that I'll ever own a house, let alone a car.
You're not restricted to a single job hoping for overtime. Spend the time you spend reading Hatrack at a second job, even some crappy retail job, and you'd be amazed at how much that extra cash would help. 40 hours a week really isn't all that much work, especially if you don't have a family to take care of at home.
Posts: 4292 | Registered: Jan 2001
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Child care may be expensive, but that is the way that the world works right now, even it may be unfair. Besides, there are tax credits for child care. People with children are also able to take more personal deductions than single people on their tax returns. Our tax code actually encourages people to have children.
I'm tired of people who know full well how expensive having a child is, decide to have a child, and then complain how much the child is. If you can't afford a child, don't have one until you can.
Posts: 155 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: About the GI Bill, it's still in force as far as I know. All you have to do is join up, and go to Iraq to be shot at.
KoM, it isn't quite that clear cut, actually. A lot of people HAVE the GI Bill (or the VA Loan program, which was what she was really talking about) but it isn't enough to buy a house these days, at least not in a lot of markets.
Also, if you still have to qualify independantly for the loan from a lender, although having the US government promise half the notes worth can help a bit. Some lenders/sellers don't want to deal with GI loans because of the extra red tape as well.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Like many have said, the American Dream is not dead. Just that "the American Dream" and "what society tells you you should have" are out of alignment.
I was a ward of the state for my late teen years, and as a result, I had some support through charitable agencies as a teen and young adult so I could find a job and had a place to sleep, but I had no family to help me out at all. Just the kindness of strangers.
I'm 23 now, and since I was 17 I've been climing the job experience ladder. I started at minimum wage which is like $5.15 or something, worked my way up to $10.00/hr, and now I'm on salary as tech support for a software company making 30K+ a year, taking home net twice what I was at my last job.
How'd I do it?
1) I kept debt down and worked within my means. Granted, I had the mixed luck of having no medical insurance and some emergancy room visits early on, resulting in unpaid bills, so I was blocked from getting a credit card before I even thought to apply for one, but as a result I learned how to live without one, and the debt was small and easily paid off once I got more than minimum wage. The small debt basically blocked me from foolishly getting into larger debt with a credit card.
2) I figured out what my talents were, and developed and marketed them. When I was 16 and messing around running fansites I never knew I would end up in the IT industry because of those skills I taught myself! But I did! Develop skills that are useful in the marketplace.
3) I took new knowledge away from every prior job. For example, if I quit my current job now (I wouldn't, I enjoy it, but if I did), I can say I have experience with SQL, Oracle, Microsoft Access, MySQL, PHP, Museums, Software Testing, doing Tech Support, Technical Manual writing and editing, and more, and I've only been here since last June.
From the job before that, I learned the basics of Shipping Logistics, Inventory, eBay selling, Marketing, Negotiating and closing a deal, evaluating the worth of an object, Quickbooks, and more.
From the job before THAT, I was in retail, and I knew Cashier/money handling, Customer Service Desk, bookselling, grocery selling, retail management (from observing managers), shrink, and more.
Nowdays I wouldn't put in big letters "bookselling" in my resume unless it was relevent to the job I was applying to, but it's something I know, and in a bind if I went back into retail it would make me more appealing if I ever applied to a bookstore again, just because I'd know the basics. If you know how to word it, your past work experience is like a bag of legos that you can mix and match to a particular job ad. It's not easy to learn how to do this, but if you do learn it it's effective and lets you climb.
So, it's entirely possible to make a living and climb the ladder. I'm living proof of that. You just have to learn how things work, what your talents are, what your means are so you don't wrack up debt which can be devistating, and do things that will better your situation.
Also, you don't need a college education. I don't have one, although I am self-educated. College lets you start higher up the ladder, but not having it isn't an insurmountable wall to progressing.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I don't believe the American Dream is dead, but I can see where it's been operated on and perhaps been through an amputation or two. I like to feel that I'm living as close to the general path of the American Dream as I'm liable to in my life.
I graduated HS as the 50th percentile, and got into college primarily because of an above average SAT score, but far from something spectacular. Spent the first year there working and taking the basics. Spent a large percentage of the spring semester applying for scholarship. Even managed to get a few based on merit. Spent that first summer on a paying internship that I found posted on a bulletin. Second year I worked, and jeopardized my scholarships with slightly less spectacular grades. Second summer, work and classes. The third through sixth year (and their summers) went much the same, being a combination of school, work, and internships. All the while I managed to accumulate a somewhat fearful amount of student debt, but accumulating a better GPA as well. Graduated in the honor societies of both my majors. Spent two weeks recovering from the 6 year ordeal that was college, and then seriously started looking for work. Two weeks and 60 resumes hand delivered in two large cities with nothing but some loose leads. Two weeks after that and I caught a break, ended up with 80 resumes delivered, 8 interviews, and two actual job offers. Accepted one said job, and just passed my two year anniversary at the same firm.
Self-back patting from the above aside, no where in that process did I have to resort to a "who I know" situation. Not to get into college, not to graduate college, not to get a job. But yes, I saw it happen. And it pissed me off, until I had to get over it and get back to what I needed to do to help myself. And I've done that, to get probably less than half-way to where I'd like to be. I know that right know I'd have a hard time supporting a spouse, let alone a child. I'd love to look into house ownership, but that market has currently passed my by, and it'll likely be awhile before I can reach it again.
Are these desires reachable to me even now? Yes. Do I find it work waiting, and will they continue to be reachable to me in the future. Yes as well, and such is as much of a plan as I'm liable to make. This, to me, is the American Dream; the ability to reach my next goal in life, even if it requires sacrifices and hard work. The only reason I felt the need to write this is because that possibility is not dead for me. And, I suspect, not for many people.
posted
I didn't live through that much of the past century, but my grandparents did. They had childhood diseases nobody gets now. They went bankrupt and mortgaged the farm, and went to Florida to work in the orange-packing industry. Admittedly they had a house, but their lives weren't easy. And it wasn't just them.
I like the idea of people's lives being even easier, but . . . I'm glad I didn't live in the good old days.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Getting anywhere in terms of saving up for retirement or a home or their kid's college education. Getting anywhere in terms of improving their situation... Also the childcare thing. And in this case, it's really not about me who is happy living in my own apartment and not with parents or relatives. At least people, ideally, should be able to get... some sort of stability in their situation with their jobs and families as it really does work better for society.
That is where planning comes in. Before you (not you in particular, but any person) have kids, you need to plan out how you are going to pay for them. If you don't have enough money to raise kids while also saving money...it is not yet time to have them. Childcare is expensive, yet it can be planned for. Sure, sometimes the unplanned happens, a layoff, and injury, or something of that nature. But most things can be planned for. You should always work on developing your skills, so that if something like a layoff happens, you can find other work. If I were to loose my job, I would be upset...since I like the company I work for, and think I have a good future with them...but I know I have other options (some better than others).
If a person wants to improve their situation, they need to work in productive ways. Showing up and punching the timeclock isn't enough. You need to show motivation. Also, if a company offers training, or tuition reimbersment...you need to take advantage of it. That is how you improve on a situation.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: About the GI Bill, it's still in force as far as I know. All you have to do is join up, and go to Iraq to be shot at.
KoM, it isn't quite that clear cut, actually. A lot of people HAVE the GI Bill (or the VA Loan program, which was what she was really talking about) but it isn't enough to buy a house these days, at least not in a lot of markets.
I'm pretty sure she was referring to the GI Bill that allowed GI's to serve their country and then go to college on Uncle Sam's dime. Which my father did. During the Vietnam years. He went to USC's film school and never served a single year in Vietnam because he opted to serve his overseas duty in Alaska. After Vietnam was over, he served a year in Thailand. The only shooting he did was with a camera.
I'm sure it's different today, but I'm convinced that if he had to do it today, he'd still figure out a way to go to college on someone else's check and make everything work out so he could do something he enjoyed. That's just the way he is. The opportunities are different, it's not that they don't exist. Today, he's a self employed long haul truck driver for FedEx Critical Care, which suits him great. He still gets to travel, the work isn't very hard and he can pick and choose his jobs.
You know Syn, you could work toward getting a CDL and sign on as a truck driver. You can even take your rabbit with you. Then there's no need for rent, just a postoffice box. You don't generally have to get along with anyone else, since most drivers aren't part of a team. And in your down hours, you could write. Just a thought.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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The truck driver thing's not a bad idea, actually. Many firms are so short they'll even train you for a relatively minimal commitment, though if you could get training on your own that would be better.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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First I got to learn how to drive... And do something about this falling asleep thing. I don't think I'll ever be able to drive a car with this falling asleep problem I have.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Part of success is viewing problems as opportunities. I know that's a cliche, but it is because it's true. People who get stumped at every problem, who don't see them as one more brick in the road but as the reason they can't succeed have defeated themselves. That doesn't mean that the problems aren't genuine or real. It means that a realistic yet positive outlook on the future is critical to success.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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There's also the idea that to get your dream out of American society, one has to do something for society.
You have to work hard, you have to try to find some kind of marketable skill, you have to attain some of the basic skills of modern life (basic computer use, interpersonal skills, driving an automobile), and you have to be willing to happily start from the bottom.
A friend of mine in his ninth year of college once said, "After all of this study and looking at careers are out there, I've decided I want to be a millionaire. The problem is they aren't hiring."
Posts: 32 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Apparently the link I posted about the GI Bill was totally not needed. That is since everyone keeps making their assumptions about it.
The first year that a Military member is in there is a 100 dollar deduction taken out for the GI Bill. After that you can add some more to it, but it is the member's choice. It is not all someone else's dime.
Heck I don't know WHY I should know any of this except for the fact that I freaking get it when I get out. Heck, I can even use it while I'm in. I don't know why (I do, but since I'm already using sarcasm). As I am in still I can get Tuition Assistance, which is now up to 100%. However, that is beyond the scope of this topic.
[ March 06, 2006, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I grew up in a lower-middle-class family that spent like an upper-middle-class family, and thus had trouble buying food at the end of every month. But I'm smart and hard-working, and did well in high school, so I got accepted to an ivy league school with a need-based assistance package that meant we only had to pay my living expenses out-of-pocket, with the rest covered by scholarships and massive student loans, which I will be paying off for the rest of my life.
I decided early on that my college didn't have much to offer me as far as academics went, we just weren't a good match, but I'm a strong-willed and motivated person, and made good use of the time anyhow. I worked a wide variety of easily-obtained student jobs, and took a wide variety of classes, and by the end of the four years I had two things: enough work experience in a variety of fields to have no trouble putting food on the table, and more importantly, I knew what it was that I did want to do with my life.
So I got myself one of those silly jobs that put food on the table, and started figuring out what I needed to do to achieve my real career goals. And in the meantime got married, bought a house, bought a car, got a dog, and started paying off those massive student loans.
Now I'm in school again studying towards my dream career, and it's looking like I may actually achieve it some day. If not, I'm sure as heck enjoying the journey, anyhow, and I can always go back to working some office job if I need to.
Having success handed to you on a silver platter is not the American Dream. Reaching success by deciding what you want, working hard to get it, and not letting anything stand in your way, that's the American Dream. And it's alive and kicking. If anything, I think there are more opportunities than ever out there for Americans who know what they want and are willing to work hard to get it, because the rest of the country is off spending every waking hour zoning out in front of the TV or complaining about how no one's giving them what they deserve.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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The current version "Montgomery GI Bill" is different from the "cold war" edition. It does require an up front participation from the Service member. It is still a great way to pay for an education. If you chose to serve as a member of the National Guard, there are often state benefits that accrue and usually a tuition reduction for state schools. A six year comitment will allow a member to finish, and largely pay for, a baccalaureate degree at a state university.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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That's the thing. I'm not really talking about having everything handed to people on a silver platter. I'm talking about making things better, working together, symbiosis, some sort of balance between people working their fingers to the bones and getting help in the process like child care, health care, all of that stuff because they work and pay into the system. I really don't think that's unreasonable... And let's not even get started on a global level. What little I know about outsourcing (I'm not talking about the telemarketing jobs or the help center jobs being outsourced, though that bothers me a bit, at least these folks get reasonable wages, i'm talking about the people who are making 50 a month. That doesn't make any sort of sense. Just so someone else can benefit and not them.) bothers me and angers me. I'm not just thinking about my own struggles but how things can be improved across the board, because if this keeps up, hardworking people are just going to get worn out in this system and think, "enough already." and collapse. I wish people and the system would help each other more. Then society as a whole would be a lot better... There would be a balance between capitalism and the individual that has nothing to do with getting people 10 thousand dollar stereos and luxury cars, but the help they need to get by when they are just too tired to.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:i'm talking about the people who are making 50 a month. That doesn't make any sort of sense.
Except it does. Because they wouldn't be DOING that work if $50/month -- or the equivalent -- weren't worth it to them. In many cases, that's an average salary in the relevant countries.
Should American companies opt to be extra-generous with foreign labor?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I'll touch on a few things, some of which has already been commented on.
As for the youth of today wanting everything. Yep. Agree with that. All I have to do to see evidence of this is to break out the picture albums from when I was a little boy. The furnishings in my childhood home are so spare in those pictures. What happened was this: my parents accumulated their possessions over several years. Decades in fact. A lot of people start off expecting to have what their parents have, not realizing that their parents didn't get all that stuff overnight. But you know what? I never thought we were poor. And we weren't. A lot of people back then were living just like we were. In many ways it's all about perception.
The GI Bill. I'm a benefactor of it. I served in the U.S. Navy from '87 to '91. When I got out I went straight to college and spent every nickel of that GI Bill. Like KOM said, you can do this too if you are willing to go get shot at for a while. Really though, I know this isn't an option that everyone wants to take, and that's fine. I'm just saying that it worked for me. The end result was that I finished college a lot later than most of my high school peers, but that was my choice. My parents didn't have money to send me to school, I didn't want to take out a loan that I would have to pay back, and at the time I didn't know what I wanted to do anyway. So, I guess what I'm saying is that you can get a college education without being buried in debt, you just might have to explore a different route and take longer to graduate.
My next soapbox: A lot of Americans don't know how good they've got it. Go to a third world country for a while. Go to Manta, Ecuador and see the street children begging for pennies. See the squalor that a lot of the world still lives in. Wealth is relative. And relatively speaking, Americans are still the wealthiest people on the planet.
<Steps down from soapbox>
Some of this boils down to cost of living for the area that you're in. My advice to anyone willing to work hard to achieve the 'American Dream'; Move to a small town in the middle of nowhere. Find a job there that pays just a bit better than average and you can still have that white picket fence dream.
Last thing I'll say: It's okay to have possessions and want things. But, really, is this what we want our life goals to be? A white picket fence house can burn to the ground and be gone in an hour. My dream is to be a loving husband to my wife and to rear my children to be decent people. My dream is to impact those around me so that, when I leave, my legacy will be one of love. Don't get me wrong, I want my family to have a good roof over their heads, and I'm working hard to see that it continues to happen, but it's the intangible things that are more important.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:i'm talking about the people who are making 50 a month. That doesn't make any sort of sense.
Except it does. Because they wouldn't be DOING that work if $50/month -- or the equivalent -- weren't worth it to them.
I think I agree with you in principle, Tom, but is there a place for worker protection beyond the joint-interest of the company and the employee? If the labor-supply is abundant (giving management little reason to care about individual workers), are societal/government restrictions on what kind of conditions workers may be subjected to appropriate/necessary? I'm thinking of minimum wage laws, child labor laws, OSHA, etc.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Maybe if slave labour wasn't involved. Perhaps if the companies were not just looking for cheap labour to cut down on their own cost at the expense of American workers. Perhaps if there was a minimum wage because I don't think that 50 a month is enough money even in a third world country, especially when I read how some of these companies will make their workers stay in dorms and charge them a ton of money for room and board.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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If the American dream is, say, a house with a floatable mortgage and other debts at payable levels, with enough left over to save for retirement and the education of your 1.5 children... I have to say, to a degree, that achieving the American dream involves a significant element of luck.
You can work very hard at a lot of jobs and not be able to afford first and last month's rent plus deposit at a decent apartment, never mind a house.
You can be a tireless and efficient worker and still get cut out in a mass layoff.
You can struggle to get 'A's at a lousy school on an empty stomach and still not be able to find enough scholarships to get an education at the local college.
You can never touch a credit card, and find your application for a needed car or home denied for insufficient debt history.
You can work very hard at a job and get a lousy job review because you think the job involves helping people, while your boss thinks it means going through customers as fast as possible, whether you actually help them or not.
People point to so-called "self-made millionares" without in most cases actually studying the backgrounds, the systems of support, the realities that made those people's lives possible. Saying anyone could do it if they really tried is like saying I could play basketball like Michael Jordan if I really tried. It's not true.
Hard work and determination will help, no question. But luck, or random chance, also plays a part. Who you know, being at the right place at the right time, meeting someone on a day when they were in a good mood and wanted to help rather than a bad day when they didn't. Who you were born. Luck.
Believe me, I speak as one of the lucky ones.
In the wake of World War II, there was a boom. The U.S. was one of the few major industrial centers that hadn't been severely damaged and depleted by the war. The effect of that boom has all but faded. Why does it seem harder to achieve that long-ago conceived dream than it once was? Because it is.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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No. But the obvious counter-question is: should what used to be considered a reasonable middle class lifestyle be so distant to so many people that it might be considered a dream?
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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It all comes back down to this: work. There's nothing easy about maintaining a middle class lifestyle. And I don't believe it ever has been.
We've grown up thinking that Mike Brady started off as a successful architect on day one and could afford six kids, a stay at home wife and a maid (not to mention Oliver...). Or that on Dawson's Creek the teen's parents just kinda had these nebulous jobs that paid for the big houses.
Really, it takes going out there and giving one's utmost, no matter how tedious or seemingly demeaning a job might be. It means putting in the best 40 hours a week you can, or more, at a job. Then you've got to add in some more work in managing your money.
If you want to go beyond the basic middle class income, it really takes busting your butt to do it. Get to work early, make and work new contacts, reaching, grabbing and pulling yourself up to the next rung of the ladder.
Sweat, it's still the number one ingredient in success.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:A white picket fence house can burn to the ground and be gone in an hour. My dream is to be a loving husband to my wife and to rear my children to be decent people.
Well, if it comes right to it, your children can be hit by a truck and be gone in three seconds. And they can't be insured for what they're actually worth, either, unlike a house. I don't think permanence is a good measure for a dream.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Well KoM, that could be because you don't believe that the family relationship is permanent or even believe in a soul. However, if you believe that the kind of person that we develop into (and how help others develop as well) is the one thing that is permanent, then it might be easier to see where that comment is coming from.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rich Lewis: Sweat, it's still the number one ingredient in success.
And I maintain that luck is also very important.
I made more than three times as much money working at a job that actually took maybe half of my eight hour days to do well as I did making close to minimum wage, working very hard, at an electronics store where the manager was having an ulcer trying to keep up with the unreasonable demands of his boss.
You can sweat all your life and still die a pauper with no paricular hope that your offspring will get a better chance. Many do.
Where the "American Dream" gets kicked in the teeth is the recognition that sometimes hard work and perserverance really pays- your employer.
I don't mean to malign the importance of hard work and perserverance. They remain important and commendable qualities. But no one should feel free to denigrate those who haven't "made it" on the assumption that they just haven't worked hard enough, and no one should assume by default that the wealthy all worked oh-so-hard to make it to where they are. As Gershwin said, "It ain't necessarily so."
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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So true, Sterling. Those are the points I am trying to get across.
Really, people need to work together. I don't think this individual nuclear family trying to make it to middle class model really works without community.
Is it so bad that I don't want to climb the ladder? I just want to... thrive. Do well, make enough money to live off and then have the stability to do the thing I really want to do.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Sterling, I wouldn't call it luck. I'd call it making some smart decisions that lead to greater opportunities. And persistence to endure through the hard parts.
I will never say that I work as hard physically as a kid at McDonalds. My brain works harder, though. You seem to be, and I could be mistaken so forgive me if I am, assuming that work is only hard if you physically sweat or are in some pain. I don't make the same assumption. Making a fair amount of money isn't difficult -- becoming a millionaire isn't even very difficult. Supply a needed service that you are uniquely qualified to do and the money will come, sometimes in very unexpected ways. Add time, persistence and consistency, and you'd have to hit outright bad luck to not succeed.
It's like investing. If you began investing $100 a year when you're 16 in conservative, reputable long term funds, and gradually increase your investing as you get older, not huge amounts, just a little at a time, consistently, diversely, persistently building up your assets, you will become a millionaire within your lifetime. That's not luck. You'd actually have to hit very bad luck for that formula to lead to ruin.
By the same token, I have never seen anyone who worked with consistent reasonable effectiveness over a long period of time truly lose out. Yes, you can get laid off -- I have, several times -- but when you gain a fully earned reputation for being a good employee, you will find another job, usually through contacts in the same industry. I watched 95% (yes, 95%) of my coworkers get laid off over the past 6 years. The ones who had the hardest time finding employment were the same ones who really weren't all that great when they worked for us. The smart workers, the ones who produced consistently and got along with their bosses and generally made the company environment better, all of them were reemployed pretty quickly. This was following the tech bubble bursting, when jobs were harder to find.
Is this a 100% guaranteed formula? No way. But like investing, you have to have outright bad luck for it not to succeed at least at a reasonably middle-class level.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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The "American Dream" has become harder to acieve because the definition has changed.
People look back on the 50's and wonder why they could get by with one income and we in these days cannot. Well, lets look at what the average home with children in the fifties had, and compare it to what the average family has today. These are, of course, my best guesses.
The 1950s: One black and white TV with bunny ears. Perhaps one radio / record player. One car, probably used. Shared bedrooms for the children, minimum 2 in a room. One rotary phone. Each kid has a bicycle.
The 2000s: At least two nice TVs, more likely three. Basic extended cable minimum. Perhaps even digital or satellite. Usually a DVD player, with several DVDs (15-25 bucks a pop). At least one nice stereo, with CD players for the kids. Most likely portable CD players (or MP3 players) for each kid as well. Probably dozens of CDs (12-22 dollars a piece). Probably one or two video gaming consoles, with at least a dozen games (at 40-50 bucks each). Probably one hand-held video gaming device as well (games 30 bucks each). Two cars minimum, with each teen most likely getting a car at age 16-18. Insurance on every car. Maintenance on every car. Cell phones for every member of the family. Minimum one computer, more likely two or three. High speed cable (or DSL) is now considered a basic need. Digital camera's are now the norm. It seems now that each kid getting their own room by age 10-12 is very common. Each kid still has a bicycle, but now they are way more expensive (10-speeds and the like).
In addition, we now buy nicer clothes, eat out more, buy bigger houses, more expensive cars... You name it. The list could go on and on.
The folks back in 1950 didn't make more money, they SPENT less money. If someone were to limit themselves and their family to living with a 50's standard of living, they could do so on a single income.
Would it be easy? Of course not. But was it ever easy?
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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Perhaps in order to allow people to better answer your question, you could give us more to work with. By that I mean: *Define the American Dream *Since you assert it has died, tell us when this dream was alive While attempting to formulate a response to your question, I realized I couldn't because I lacked information. If you could do that, it would be great. Thanks
Edit: I'm not trying to be nitpicky or a pain or set some sort of logistical trap. I just find that discussion on a topic is greatly facilitated by having a working definition and scope.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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My idea of the American dream is, people being aboue to start their families, get a good decent job that matches their skills and pays them enough to support themselves and their families. What would be even better is- corporate and government support to realize this dream. People work to keep the system going, they pay their taxes, they buy products and supplies to keep the economy going, support and help to me seems reasonable. I do not mean having everything handed to people on a gold platter. I'm not talking about luxuries, just basic child care, health care, sick days for people to take off and take care of their children or themselves when they need to, maternity and paternity leave, mother's hours for women with children in school who still need to work, but be home for them when they get home from school. Perhaps I'm an idealist, or a borderline socialist, but I believe in a holistic approach to building a better society. Not just individuals looking out for themselves or companies that care more about Wallstreet than their consumers' health or their workers, but a whole system, governments, corporations, families and individuals devoted to making things better. That right there is my American dream. A better and stronger society, me as a better person contributing to that society. Hopefully as a writer... If I am good at that... I just am not fit for these super social sort of jobs.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think, jeniwren, that our admittedly anecdotal experiences have lead us to different conclusions.
My wife is a doctor. No employer has asked her if she's able to lift thirty pounds over her head, or if four hour stretches on her feet are likely to be a problem. They don't have to; her job doesn't require it. Does she work hard? Yes. Because she spends long hours away from her family, is responsible for the health of her patients in a very direct way (and cares about that), and often has to make herself available in what are not, technically, "work hours", among other stresses.
She worked hard to get there: made it through college with loans and scholarships and workstudy, graduated with a double-major, made it into a decent medical school and through that school and residency.
Would she have been able to make it through without a supportive family? Teachers who helped her find those scholarships? A husband (to toot my own horn) who supported her financially and emotionally through the later years of medical school and residency?
No, labor does not have to be physically draining to be hard work, but I do think we undervalue and underpay those who do such work. I didn't work "harder" sitting in front of a computer than I did hauling five-gallon paint drums around. But I did get paid a heck of a lot better.
And not everyone has the good fortune to have a unique and desired talent. Some people are very good at doing repetitive tasks accurately and efficiently, but it's not a field where recognition of talent is a given.
And yes, reliable long-term mutual funds can pay off well, if you happen to have someone to advise you financially before that money goes directly hand-to-mouth. And without some kind of buffer, it can be very easy for one spell of bad luck- a car accident, an illness- to wipe out whatever money you might have imagined becoming your stake in your future.
I believe the term that was once popular was "there, but for the grace of God, go I?..."
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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The original American dream may have been the right to worship as one pleased. Perhaps for countless slaves, the American dream was freedom to simply live their own lives. For others it was the right to own land (and the opportunity to do so). People lost their lives for the freedom to choose our government leaders and be represented. All of these have historically been the American dream, yet we take them for granted now.
The American dream seems to have experienced a shift. Rather than basic human rights and needs, it has moved on to human wants, like wanting what our neighbors have. A family of 4, living at the federal poverty line, is still able to afford rent, food, cell phones, clothing, an automobile (or two), television and cable. Children are freely educated K-12 and then have an excellent opportunity through federal Pell Grants and need based scholarships do continue onwards. We have so much to be grateful for, and I think we rarely acknowledge that.
That being said, there's a lot more we could do as a compassionate society to help others less fortunate than ourselves. It would be nice if the new American Dream was "How much can I help my disadvanged fellow human beings (not how can the wealthy, the elite, or the government-- not them but me)" rather than "How can I get more for myself." However, the cynic in my recognizes this as hopelessly idealistic.
Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: My idea of the American dream is, people being aboue to start their families, get a good decent job that matches their skills and pays them enough to support themselves and their families. What would be even better is- corporate and government support to realize this dream. People work to keep the system going, they pay their taxes, they buy products and supplies to keep the economy going, support and help to me seems reasonable.
Isn't that what we've got now?
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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No, because it's slowly being eroded. America is gradually becoming a service economy, that is something to worry about. Pension plans are being scrapped and replaced with 401 ks which may not be as reliable. The government is even considering increasing interest rates on student loans and cutting funding for college students. It's insane. It will only get worse unless people DO something constructive about it, such as take some control over our government and our tax dollars.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I'm not entirely sure how those three things factor in to an apocalyptic end to the American Dream, Synesthesia.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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And I have a house - with a hefty mortgage, and I couldn't have done it without my husband. 
