posted
Irami, you're really going to have to get past this bizarre hangup you've got. It'll hold you back.
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posted
Irami: I'm flattered that you quoted me, but I have to ask if you're using the term "white" in a cultural, or a "you look like a white guy" context. And here's why:
My grandparents (on the one side) were Okies. If you haven't read "The Grapes of Wrath"... or seen the movie, with Henry Fonda, which is quite good... "Okies", in their time, were basically "white niggers", in a cultural sense. My dad, as a child, picked peaches and apricots and lived in a one-room house without running water.
Is the fact that he had blond hair and blue eyes important in your analysis of him, or not?
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quote:I'm flattered that you quoted me, but I have to ask if you're using the term "white" in a cultural, or a "you look like a white guy" context.
Cultural context. Because of America's racial legacy, I think that cultural distinctions often fall along racial lines. It's a historical accident, but that's how it falls, unless you are Gatsby(the character) or Steinbeck(the author), then you see the same cancer that I see in our society. ________
quote:All you're doing is saying, "This is a white man's problem." You won't even explain WHY.
I'll try to be clearer. It's not enough that America has repudiated its history of racial injustice. What is necessary before we are all become one big happy family, is a thorough understanding on how such an attitude became acceptable to begin with, especially given our rhetoric of individual inviobility and the increasing respect for individual rights across Europe at the time of the drafting of the US Constitution. Such questions include, "What does it say about democracy, that a democratic state could invite this atrocity." "What does it say about education, that some people hailed as the brightest minds of their generation decided so poorly, and there was debate upon the issue, so it's not as if they didn't know." Lastly, "what does it say about the importance economics in politics, that it was tolerable to subjugate an entire people for economic and political expediency?"
These are questions that need to be considered, and the appropriate changes in the political realm made and the educational curriculum adopted before black people are going to come the mainstream. In other words, the mainstream is going to right itself.
There is an awful movie called Dark in the video stores. The dialogue and plot are superb. The direction, acting, editing, and the monologues are horrendous. It could have been an incredible short film, instead, it's a full-length travesty. It's about a young black man dealing with all of the issues I'm talking about while going to school at the University of Chicago. Again, the dialogue and plot are both first rate, and everything else about the movie is awful. I give a very qualified recommendation for the movie to anyone who is serious about the problem of young black men in America.
Back to the Nash book, in The Forgotten Fifth, he calls into question the winner's argument of historical necessity. You know, all of those historians who say that the founders had to allow slavery in the new Republic, when it was clear that morally and politically, it would have been possible for them to abolish slavery then and there. (Again, just as it is possible to take seriously the claim that we should bring the Guantanamo gang up on charges, but I imagine that in fifty years, people it'll be taken for granted that Bush had to detain them without trial. It makes me wonder if Japanese internment isn't just another example of this pernicious meme.)
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: The rhetoric in the article talks around the central question, which is, why won't black men just go along and play the game like everyone else? Riches and status are available for the black man who assumes white sensibilities, why won't they just do it. It works for other immigrants. The answer, I believe, is something out of Faust.
That is, if you believe class and intelligence are inherently white qualities.
My father's a Mexican immigrant, with a fairly heavy accent. But because he dresses well and speaks politely, (most) people respect and like him. When Mexicans from my old neighborhood wore wifebeaters and jeans ten sizes too large and shaved their heads, people didn't like them or hire them. As you (sort of) said, it's not about race anymore, it's about character. And if you're the one tying the black race to an identity of pimps and drugs and bling, I humbly submit it's you who needs to consider introspection.
No matter how guilty white liberals may feel, at some point we need to acknowledge the obvious -- there's a serious problem on the darker side of the fence, and no matter how we try to excuse it, it's still there. Why are blacks and Latinos consistently underperforming in school? Why are we idolizing the most worthless representatives of our races -- even Eminem was (uh, once) a smart rapper, not a brainless self-declared pimp. What the hell is wrong with us, and why are we so often outraged that white employers won't hire losers who can't even wear decent clothes like my father does?
Bill Cosby really stunned me when he spoke out against what black culture's degenerating into. I know this is the fodder of every Republican pundit out there, and it disgusts me to be arguing the same point Bill O'Reilly is, but Cosby is right. We need to take care of our kids before we buy new shoes, and break the goddamn gang culture, and teach our kids what class is and why people respect it. Complaining that prejudice is simply a consequence of white "moral malformation" is bull, and we both know it. Call these problems symptomatic of poverty, they are. Call it a spiral of unemployment and poor education, it is. And yeah, there's a lot that can and needs to be done for poor neighborhoods to get back on their feet -- starting with cops to break up the gangs, and continuing with teachers to give kids a different future. And god knows the justice system needs a serious examination before we can ever pretend minorities have fair treatment. But god, we need some degree of introspection, or we'll never advance anywhere.
This can just as easily apply to poor white culture. I just volunteered in Louisiana for Spring Break, and good lord, I've never seen the Confederate flag used so often as a fashion statement. There's a lot of trashy people, both white and black, in their own ignorant culture, proudly celebrating their own ignorance -- and neither side will get anywhere blaming the other.
Especially when both of these are simply sub-cultures -- very few of any of us are the waste of our cultures. Blacks and Latinos admittedly suffer the stereotypes of our trash far more than white people do, but blaming white people for not seeing through the fog of bling isn't where we should start.
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quote:I think that cultural distinctions often fall along racial lines
Ah, here we get, I think, to the meat of your argument.
Let me say this, in regard to my own ancestors. My great_x_3 grandparents on my mother's side were Cherokee and Chickasaw, respectively, who had fled from the reservation after refusing to accept their Dawes Rolls numbers. They adapted themselves to live in the White Man's World, in which they weren't always welcome, but their expertise was.
A practical result of this is that I am barred from registering myself as a member of the Five Civilized Tribes, and getting in on that hot Indian Casino action.
Culturally... if they weren't white people, they were aspiring to be white people, in any sense that mattered.
If they'd just have shut up and eaten their mealy wheat, today their descendants too could be Oklahoma City trailer trash.
So how does that fall out on your racial-vs-cultural lines of distinction?
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posted
Lalo, it's worth pointing out that some people in the South don't look at the Confederate flag in the same way that people from other parts of the country do, especially since a LOT of people in the South don't think that the Civil War was really about slavery.
ALSO, I would like to remind you that you were in SLI-FREAKING-DELL. Which is not New Orleans.
My neighborhood. Slidell. My neighborhood. Slidell. Slidell was hit WAY harder than New Orleans, hurricane-wise. It's really sad.
posted
No, I don't pretend the Confederate flag is a rallying point for racism -- as I understand it, it's a symbol for what some to believe is Southern pride. A specific sect of Southern pride which, I believe, while fundamentally racist and homophobic, is more of a trashy identity than a cause. The flag doesn't need to represent the Civil War (which I'm fairly divided on -- if the South weren't affiliated with slavery, I may even side with it) to represent a classless culture.
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As long as you understand that Southern pride in general is not...whatever it is you're describing.
I have pretty much lost patience with negative generalizations about the South after going to Chicago and having nearly everyone I met ask me if we lynch blacks and gays. Oh, and Jews. Apparently, we also lynch Jews. And something about tubleweeds; I don't remember.
quote:Culturally... if they weren't white people, they were aspiring to be white people, in any sense that mattered.
That's the important sentence. About the resilliency of black men, no amount of poverty, drug abuse, degradation, the threat of prison, will make black Americans want to be like white people. It's really astounding. It's shocking. Immigrants, on the other hand, even African immigrants, are so embracing of white culture that they are out-performing the whites.
Lalo, what do you know about the cultural differences between immigrants from South America and Mexicans who were conquered, regarding American institutions?
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: No, I don't pretend the Confederate flag is a rallying point for racism -- as I understand it, it's a symbol for what some to believe is Southern pride. A specific sect of Southern pride which, I believe, while fundamentally racist and homophobic, is more of a trashy identity than a cause. The flag doesn't need to represent the Civil War (which I'm fairly divided on -- if the South weren't affiliated with slavery, I may even side with it) to represent a classless culture.
Exactly. I live in Georgia, and I see this flag as the banner of proud, willful ignorance and lack of civilization.
I think I might be shot, but I'll say it anyways. I see the gangsta/pimp movement as almost exactly the same thing, but on the other 'side.' We're stupid, and proud of it - and if you cross us, you might get hurt.
I'm an equal opportunity loather here. I can't stand either group - their ways of speech, their music, their uniforms, etc. But in the end, it's the proud, defiant ignorance that makes me the maddest.
Generally comfortable with democracy and majority rule. Generally think that education is a means to get a job. Generally think that only bad people are in prison, and that the conditions therein aren't something that good people need to pay too much attention to. Generally "tough on crime." Generally believes that education should consist of practical skills above all. Generally includes a healthy belief in the moral rectitude of the Market and competition. Generally believes that one should always vote in ones own best interests. Generally believes that if it's legal to do x, it's morally defensible to do x. Generally believes that hard science is more serious work than humanities. Generally believes that fiction should entertain.
Weber wrote a great book called, "The Spirit of Capitalism and the Protestant Ethic," that better job at this than my statements.
quote:Irami, you're really going to have to get past this bizarre hangup you've got. It'll hold you back.
I don't know if it is about getting past anything. I could hold it in. But I think that its bad for my health, now when people ask me what I really think, I tell them.
quote:Culturally... if they weren't white people, they were aspiring to be white people, in any sense that mattered.
That's the important sentence. About the resilliency of black men, no amount of poverty, drug abuse, degradation, the threat of prison, will make black Americans want to be like white people. It's really astounding. It's shocking. Immigrants, on the other hand, even African immigrants, are so embracing of white culture that they are out-performing the whites.
Lalo, what do you know about the cultural differences between immigrants from South America and Mexicans who were conquered, regarding American institutions?
But this is the point. You seem to be defining black identity as "poverty, drug abuse, degradation, [and] prison." How are Africans who come to the US and do well in business embracing white culture, rather than simply succeeding in a capitalistic venture as their own identities? Do they need to wear bones through their noses to not be white?
I come from a Mexican, not South American neighborhood. As I understand it, South Americans are far more removed from American culture than Central Americans are. There's a great deal of distaste for the US from both camps, but South America seems more occupied by our government's yesteryear subversive interference with their countries and our modern economic policies than Central America is, which itself is more concerned with our immigration policies. I don't pretend to know the political climate of the Americas, only my own childhood and adolescence in a Mexican-American neighborhood -- and there's a lot we can do to improve ourselves. It's not about being white, it's about having class. And it's a true shame if you think class and ethnicity are mutually exclusive.
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Generally comfortable with democracy and majority rule. Generally think that education is a means to get a job. Generally think that only bad people are in prison, and that the conditions therein aren't something that good people need to pay too much attention to. Generally "tough on crime." Generally believes that education should consist of practical skills above all. Generally includes a healthy belief in the moral rectitude of the Market and competition. Generally believes that one should always vote in ones own best interests. Generally believes that if it's legal to do x, it's morally defensible to do x. Generally believes that hard science is more serious work than humanities. Generally believes that fiction should entertain.
Again, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. My personal, Jesuit-educated BBA student feelings about competition and the market aside...where the hell are you getting this from? Because it's what YOU think "American culture" is like? Newsflash: There is no one American culture, and American culture, whatever you think it is, is not an entirely white creature.
posted
Take comfort, Swamper. I was surrounded by racism as a kid, and I always noticed race. But after years of working with blacks and whites and treating them no differently . . . and making a point to refer to "that guy" rather than "that black guy" . . . now, very often, I just don't notice. Not always, but often.
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quote:Originally posted by HollowEarth: Its nice to have vindication that I truly am as evil as had always hoped to be. And look, all this work I did was for nought.
All it took was burning easily in the sun and having a penis.
Totally! I, unfortunately, am slightly less evil, as I lack a penis. But I am in favor of the free market, so maybe that makes up for it.
Let's start an evil empire. We shall be co-chancellors and rule with an iron fist and crush all who stand in our way.
posted
I dunno pH, tempting as it is, I'm just not sure how having someone who lacks that defining evil attribute as co-chancellor would impact my evil status.
How about I be chancellor A, and you be chancellor B? No fair changing it to chancellor 1 or the mongooses after the fact, though.
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quote:I have pretty much lost patience with negative generalizations about the South after going to Chicago and having nearly everyone I met ask me if we lynch blacks and gays.
I've said this before, Pearce, but it bears repeating: somehow, you met all the stupid people who live in Chicago.
quote: Generally comfortable with democracy and majority rule. Generally think that education is a means to get a job. Generally think that only bad people are in prison, and that the conditions therein aren't something that good people need to pay too much attention to. Generally "tough on crime." Generally believes that education should consist of practical skills above all. Generally includes a healthy belief in the moral rectitude of the Market and competition. Generally believes that one should always vote in ones own best interests. Generally believes that if it's legal to do x, it's morally defensible to do x. Generally believes that hard science is more serious work than humanities. Generally believes that fiction should entertain.
I'd be interested in hearing you describe "being like a black person" in a similar vein, Irami. I think it's very revealing of your biases.
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Irami: I don't mean to seem obtuse, but I guess I'm not grasping your point.
quote: About the resilliency of black men, no amount of poverty, drug abuse, degradation, the threat of prison, will make black Americans want to be like white people.
Aren't you just advocating a culture of victimization? Inner-city poverty, drugs, and prison are largely a self-inflicted problem.
You can't escape a crappy way of life by desperately clinging to it.
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quote:Generally comfortable with democracy and majority rule. Generally think that education is a means to get a job. Generally think that only bad people are in prison, and that the conditions therein aren't something that good people need to pay too much attention to. Generally "tough on crime." Generally believes that education should consist of practical skills above all. Generally includes a healthy belief in the moral rectitude of the Market and competition. Generally believes that one should always vote in ones own best interests. Generally believes that if it's legal to do x, it's morally defensible to do x. Generally believes that hard science is more serious work than humanities. Generally believes that fiction should entertain.
This is what you call a stereotype - and not an accurate one. Most "white people" don't believe most of these things.
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quote:My personal, Jesuit-educated BBA student feelings about competition and the market aside...where the hell are you getting this from?
A bit of Weber and a bit of De Tocqueville. If you think I'm joking, go ahead and read, "The Spirit of Capitalism", and "Democracy in America." I find Weber's and De Tocqueville's insights penetrating and adequate. Both works were written quite a while ago, but as Americans haven't made a deep effort to examine or change who they are as a people, I think that De Tocqueville is as relevant today he was in the 19th century.
quote:Aren't you just advocating a culture of victimization? Inner-city poverty, drugs, and prison are largely a self-inflicted problem.
You can't escape a crappy way of life by desperately clinging to it.
I'm more struck by a phenomenon, rather than advocating for rightness of the current crime. Despite all of the reasons for doing so, we are a people who won't take the blue pill and become functioning productive Americans. And I think I'm telling you why. (I'm wondering about how many people who are taking anti-depressants to get through the day are similarly disposed.)
Money won't change the problem. Better schools won't change the problem. And in my view, church won't change the problem. Maybe church would, but it would take a legitimate faith, and I don't think that that's an appropriate expectation.
You can talk about education being the answer, but I can tell you right now, the nation doesn't want that. I'm moderately well-educated, and I'm a nightmare. Judging from the hostile receptions of Kayne West and Chris Rock, when they stopped playing music and being funny and decided to say what they really think, there would be something damn near a civil war if the next generation of black men turned out like I did.
Lissande,
quote:Based on Irami's definition, I conclude that I am not white.
quote:Money won't change the problem. Better schools won't change the problem. And in my view, church won't change the problem.
What do all these things have in common?
They're not YOU.
Why does who YOU are depend on a morally bankrupt church, an equally morally bankrupt public education system, and somebody else's money?
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quote:Despite all of the reasons for doing so, we are a people who won't take the blue pill and become functioning productive Americans. And I think I'm telling you why.
Hm. Is it because you think "white Americans" fit the stereotype you gave here, and -- if it follows that being a functioning, productive American requires "acting white" -- you're leery of embracing that stereotype?
Hell, man, last I heard you were piggybacking on existing coffeehouses to sell wireless Internet, which is the modern equivalent of a vending machine franchise. You're in service to the service industry, Irami.
quote:I'm moderately well-educated, and I'm a nightmare.
That's because you're moderately well-educated, but limit yourself to your uninformed opinions when discussing race. In this situation, you're not actually bringing your moderate level of education to bear; you're just hurling your gut at it, and anyone can do that, even monsters.
-------
Consider the ridiculous "Confederate States of America" movie that's out now, a dippy polemic that completely misses the point of the Civil War in favor of broad criticisms of the most obvious and egregious forms of bigotry. Had the South actually won the Civil War, would the United States still practice slavery? Would Jim Crow still rear its head? It's very unlikely; these things were products of the industrial age, NOT some inherent worldview. The big "worldview" question in the Civil War was the role of the federal government, NOT whether slavery was some necessary way of life.
And that's the thing, Irami. You spend all your time railing against "worldview" and declaring that you'll never make peace with the Evil White Man until the following happens:
quote:What is necessary before we are all become one big happy family, is a thorough understanding on how such an attitude became acceptable to begin with, especially given our rhetoric of individual inviobility and the increasing respect for individual rights across Europe at the time of the drafting of the US Constitution. Such questions include, "What does it say about democracy, that a democratic state could invite this atrocity." "What does it say about education, that some people hailed as the brightest minds of their generation decided so poorly, and there was debate upon the issue, so it's not as if they didn't know." Lastly, "what does it say about the importance economics in politics, that it was tolerable to subjugate an entire people for economic and political expediency?"
Dude. You MISSED it. This ALREADY HAPPENED. People have had these conversations and moved on; they just didn't necessarily come to the same conclusions you wish they'd drawn.
posted
Irami - ? I was just making a goofy comment, and hope it didn't come across wrong. But I don't understand what you mean - I wouldn't be white no matter what you wrote? I would be white no matter what you wrote? Something else?
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Why does who YOU are depend on a morally bankrupt church, an equally morally bankrupt public education system, and somebody else's money?
I don't think that the church is morally bankrupt, just inadequate. I fear public education is morally bankrupt. And this makes me sad. And regarding money, it doesn't matter whose money it is, money won't change the underlying issues.
I guess I was being unclear again. For black men to drift back into mainstream, it is going to take fundamental changes in the mainstream. And if the mainstream doesn't come willingly, it'll have to be ripped from its foundations.
Now it may the case that it doesn't ever get better. It doesn't have to get better, you know, it could just keep getting worse. There is no breaking point. We could keep going like this until the sun burns out. There will always be percentage of blacks who take to the mainsteam without moral qualm, Condoleeza Rices and J.C. Watts, the percentage will ebb and flow. There will be the Booker T. Washingtons of varying degrees, but again, I don't think that black men will come willinging into the mainstream if the mainstream doesn't adjust.
Since I'm laying my cards on the table, the best scenario is for a guy like Barack Obama, a man who could very well be the Hegelian synthesis, a sort of half-vampire half-werewolf, who is just wise enough to move the mainstream over by tinkering with American institutions and priorities, such that issues of character will be spoken about with a little more care, and issues of economics will be considered a little bit less, but done with such deep wisdom that he could foment a bloodless revolution that'll bring estranged black families into this new mainstream. That's the hope, anyway. That's a whole lot of pressure to put on one man's skinny shoulders.
quote: For black men to drift back into mainstream, it is going to take fundamental changes in the mainstream.
Why? Why not make the changes in the black men? I don't see Barack Obama changing the mainstream in any appreciable way -- but I DO see him selling the mainstream more effectively to black men who're intuitively afraid of it.
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posted
rotfl.... like Barak Obama had the upbringing you are describing of the "black man" or even half of it.
Plus he's from the Chicago Machine. He may be less corrupt but he's still from the Chicago Political Machine.
AJ
quote: OBAMA, Barack, a Senator from Illinois; born in Honolulu, Hawaii, August 4, 1961; obtained early education in Jakarta, Indonesia, and Hawaii; continued education at Occidental College, Los Angeles, Calif., and Columbia University, New York City; studied law at Harvard University, where he became the first African American president of the Harvard Law Review, and received J.D. in 1992; lecturer on constitutional law, University of Chicago; member, Illinois State senate 1997-2004; elected as a Democrat to the U.S. Senate in 2004 for term beginning January 3, 2005.
quote:Why? Why not make the changes in the black men? I don't see Barack Obama changing the mainstream in any appreciable way -- but I DO see him selling the mainstream more effectively to black men who're intuitively afraid of it.
It'll take both. I figured the changes in the black men part was obvious.
BannaOj, it's not a matter of sharing the same upbringing, but rather, an issue of having insight into the issues. W.E.B DuBois didn't grow up as slave on a southern plantation, but he did have compelling insights into the problem of blacks in America in the twentieth century.
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posted
Incidently, if people of any particular skin color willingly choose not to be part of the mainstream (whatever exactly that is supposed to mean), they should not consider it racism when they, individually, are viewed as outside the mainstream.
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quote:I have pretty much lost patience with negative generalizations about the South after going to Chicago and having nearly everyone I met ask me if we lynch blacks and gays.
I've said this before, Pearce, but it bears repeating: somehow, you met all the stupid people who live in Chicago.
Maybe it's because I was brought up in the suburbs (the north suburbs), rather than in the city, but I never even knew there was such a thing as prejudice based on skin color until I was almost 12. I knew very few black kids, and I definitely saw them as different, physically, but it simply never occurred to me that it mattered. I wasn't raised to think that it mattered.
And Tom, unless you've worked helpdesk at a company here in Chicago, you can't imagine the number of stupid people in Chicago.
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Generally comfortable with democracy and majority rule.
So... black people are what... more into totalitarianism or communism or something? Or do you mean that people who have a problem with democracy and majority rule are generally black?
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Generally think that education is a means to get a job.
As opposed to... what? Thinking that jobs are a right that should be granted regardless of education?
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Generally think that only bad people are in prison, and that the conditions therein aren't something that good people need to pay too much attention to. Generally "tough on crime."
So are you saying that black people are generally "easy on crime"? Or that white people should be?
quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Generally believes that education should consist of practical skills above all.
Hmm. Which probably accounts for the overwhelming of white college students who get ridiculous liberal arts degrees.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'd be interested in hearing you describe "being like a black person" in a similar vein, Irami. I think it's very revealing of your biases.
quote: For black men to drift back into mainstream, it is going to take fundamental changes in the mainstream.
Why? Why not make the changes in the black men? I don't see Barack Obama changing the mainstream in any appreciable way -- but I DO see him selling the mainstream more effectively to black men who're intuitively afraid of it.
Speaking of Barack Obama (or maybe not), why is it that if you have three black grandparents and one white one, you're black, but having three white grandparents and one black one doesn't make you white?
It's kind of funny that racists once thought of a drop of black blood (though blood is actually red) was enough to treat someone badly, and now a drop of "black blood" is enough to demand special privileges.
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quote:What changes do you think would be necessary on their part?
With a more relevant curriculum, the anti-education trend could be appropriately addressed. Before we push practical skills, we need to study more issues concerning dignity and self-respect. I think, but I am not sure, this affects problems in communication. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but if one doesn't feel comfortable in the environment, I believe that language acquisition is somehow adversely affected. Again, I'm speaking off of the cuff.
Of course there is an issue with children. It's not even that we are having too many too young, it's that the parents are too hemmed up with confusion, distrust, fatigue, and ignorance that it really doesn't matter how old the parents are, the children are still going to end up with issues.
The problem with black men is only loosely concerned with money and work. The problem is chiefly a matter of dignity, otherness, and a real reluctance to be slave, then on top of those issues, there are problems of money and employment.
starLisa,
What I say doesn't matter, just keep on doing your thing.
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posted
I think the real problem is that the onery black grandmothers that would kick their grandchildren's behinds if they misbehaved is on the decline.
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posted
What constitutes misbehaving? Because the jails are doing a decent job of butt-kicking, and the result is more criminals.
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quote:Before we push practical skills, we need to study more issues concerning dignity and self-respect. I think, but I am not sure, this affects problems in communication. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but if one doesn't feel comfortable in the environment, I believe that language acquisition is somehow adversely affected.
I think teaching dignity and self-respect is a project doomed to fail, and that these things are generally acquired as a consequence of utility and service. We should, IMO, concentrate our efforts on providing opportunities to serve and be useful, and parents should focus their efforts on promoting these activities.
(And as a side note, I guarantee you that if black women stopped having so many children so young, things would improve. As you point out, there are other issues to address -- but not having an additional child when you're already relying on my tax dollars to support your existing children seems like an obvious and effective solution to at least one problem.)
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Well let's just say that if Steve or his father had descended into anything remotely criminal, Grandma Jones (although she was a tiny woman) would have been dragging them by their ear with her thumb and forefinger and giving them what for. Her husband was a truck driver in the Carolinas and New York, she worked low-paying positions her entire life. She sent Steve's father to military school, when he appeared to be getting involved with some unsavory adolescents. All 6 of her children are college educated, and Steve was the oldest grandchild, and she was as proud as could be he got a college scholarship.
quote:I think teaching dignity and self-respect is a project doomed to fail, and that these things are generally acquired as a consequence of utility and service.
See, this is tricky. Because you are right. Utility and service are intricately tied to dignity and self-respect. There is a section in Up From Slavery where Booker T. Washington says,
quote:the Negro shall prosper in proportion as we learn to draw the line between the superficial and the substantial, the ornamental gewgaws of life and the useful. No race can prosper till it learns that there is as much dignity in tilling a field as in writing a poem. It is at the bottom of life we must begin, and not at the top.
The problem is that I'm just not sure it's true. I think that Washington is too casual about the usefulness of a poem.
Up From Slavery is an interesting work. Throughout the entire book, Washington expounds on the virtues of a practical education, of making bricks, cleaning, building houses, and tilling fields, and then he says that the greatest joy he has had in his life was when he was away from school talking about Tuskeegee at receptions and banquets. There is the conflict. Shouldn't his greatest joy be in making bricks?
Tom, you said this:
"I think teaching dignity and self-respect is a project doomed to fail, and that these things are generally acquired as a consequence of utility and service."
I think you have it backwards. I think that utility and service are the by-products of dignity and self-respect.
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Which is not New Orleans.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
But I am in favor of the free market, so maybe that makes up for it.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
