posted
Perhaps he draws a distinction between joy and virtue. Many of the greatest joys of my life were not remotely connected to the things I've done that I consider most virtuous.
quote:I think that utility and service are the by-products of dignity and self-respect.
A lot of people agree with you. That's the motivation behind all those "Black is Beautiful" and "I'm OK, You're OK" programs we saw in elementary schools in the '70s and '80s. But I submit that these programs intended to teach dignity and self-respect failed utterly, and suggest that expecting utility and service of our people would teach those same lessons much more effectively.
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quote:. Before we push practical skills, we need to study more issues concerning dignity and self-respect.
My problem with this statement is that this is the parents' responsibility.
In fact, I think that's the key to being a successful minority in this country.
Niki and I delivered food for the salvation army on Christmas, and the great part about doing this was being invited into people's homes and talking to them for a while.
The people we were talking to were all at the low end of the income spectrum (of course), and because of the region of Omaha we were delivering to, they were all black.
So we saw a lot of families, and a lot of depressing situations. But one family we absolutely loved. We were invited in, and made very welcome, and we had a long talk with the father of the house. He was a very proud and hardworking man, who was both respectful and deserving of respect. He was elderly, and had three college aged children living in the house with him. He had another two children living away from the home, and every single one of them either had a college education, or was recieving one at the time. He himself was uneducated, but had spent his whole life working hard in order for his children to be able to go to college. He was so proud of his kids he couldn't stop talking about them .
We met two of his children, and they were smart, bright eyed, and happy people. One of them was in college going to be a nurse, and they were very friendly. They also had class and dignity, and valued education.
I don't think their schools taught them that. I have no doubt in my mind that it was their father and mother who taught them that.
Which I think is the reason other minorities, such as asians, do so well. I think any family which teaches their children the value of an education, of hardwork, of having respect for yourself and for others, will be able to succeed in america.
Of course, when the father is absent, this becomes a lot harder for the mother to do alone.
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posted
If you haven't noticed, I'm not one of those, "I'm OK, You're OK," type of guys. I agree that those programs are too morally mushy. But throwing out the project of teaching dignity and respect prior to utility and service, seems to be an instance of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
quote:My problem with this statement is that this is the parents' responsibility.
This is another issue where I bristle with mainstream white America. We can add this as another, "Generally," statement. Cultivating dignity and self-respect is the parents responsibility and it is the school's responsibility.
My parents stopped being able to help me with math homework around 7th grade. And now that I'm older, I kind of understand why, because the math I learned in high school is superfluous unless I went into a specialized field. The school kind of expects that not all parents are going to be able to teach physics, and supplements the child's education.
I'm a little curious as to why we don't do the same with character. I find it a little bit shocking that we don't admit that there is a large percentage of parents, of all races, who are incompetent in teaching ethics beyond a fourth grade level. With all of the talk about our poor math and science scores, the real pit in our public educational system is that we are producing too many students who are morally retarded.
quote:But throwing out the project of teaching dignity and respect prior to utility and service, seems to be an instance of throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Well, they've tried this approach for thirty years, now. And I don't think it's working.
What changes would you make to this curriculum to more effectively teach people to respect themselves prior to expecting them to do anything worth respecting?
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posted
Thanks Xavier. That's exactly what I was thinking while reading some of Irami's arguments.
But I'm confused from the get go. Irami, are you suggesting schools actually teach dignity, pride, self respect, so on and so forth, to kids?
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posted
I think self-respect and dignity are things that cannot be mass-taught through videos or any classroom curriculum. They must be learned by each individual separately in his or her own way.
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posted
Well, then, there you go. Xavier, Tom, Tresopax, and Lyrawn, you all are in agreement. And I think that you all are wrong.
I think that dignity, character, and self-respect can be culitivated in the classroom by the thoughtful consideration and discussion of good literature and philosophy. It's in my bones.
I imagine that that's entire point of Sunday school, or at least, it should be.
Until this issue is settled, I think that getting black men to go to school and care about it is going to be a job.
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quote:I think that dignity, character, and self-respect can be culitivated in the classroom by the thoughtful consideration and discussion of good literature and philosophy.
How do you intend to have thoughtful discussions of philosophy with children who do not attend or care about school?
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posted
So your problem is with high school English teachers? or something much earlier in their education?
I don't see any reason why we need to formalize and for that matter institutionalize the teaching of something parents have been responsible for for literally thousands of years. Further, for someone who is against joining a society that stamps out carbon copies of people, you're surprisingly willing to give the state control over how our children are taught self respect and dignity.
You really think parents know less than lawmakers about respect and dignity? Have you HEARD of the US Government?
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posted
Start with literature. The drift starts being pronounced around second or third grade, and I think that all children of that age are hungry for stories.
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quote:The drift starts being pronounced around second or third grade, and I think that all children of that age are hungry for stories.
I suspect that what you're trying to do here is provide fictional role models in place of the real ones which should be playing a part at this age.
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quote:You really think parents know less than lawmakers about respect and dignity? Have you HEARD of the US Government?
Obama said this:
quote:The problem I had is that when I examined Judge Roberts' record and history of public service, it is my personal estimation that he has far more often used his formidable skills on behalf of the strong in opposition to the weak. In his work in the White House and the Solicitor General's Office, he seemed to have consistently sided with those who were dismissive of efforts to eradicate the remnants of racial discrimination in our political process. In these same positions, he seemed dismissive of the concerns that it is harder to make it in this world and in this economy when you are a woman rather than a man.
I want to take Judge Roberts at his word that he doesn't like bullies and he sees the law and the Court as a means of evening the playing field between the strong and the weak. But given the gravity of the position to which he will undoubtedly ascend and the gravity of the decisions in which he will undoubtedly participate during his tenure on the Court, I ultimately have to give more weight to his deeds and the overarching political philosophy that he appears to have shared with those in power than to the assuring words that he provided me in our meeting.
The bottom line is this: I will be voting against John Roberts' nomination. I do so with considerable reticence. I hope that I am wrong. I hope that this reticence on my part proves unjustified and that Judge Roberts will show himself to not only be an outstanding legal thinker but also someone who upholds the Court's historic role as a check on the majoritarian impulses of the executive branch and the legislative branch. I hope that he will recognize who the weak are and who the strong are in our society. I hope that his jurisprudence is one that stands up to the bullies of all ideological stripes.
In this one speech, Obama showed a level of courage, thought, and dignity that far outstrips most parents(even if you don't agree with his vote), and further, that's why he'll continue to get re-elected.
quote:I suspect that what you're trying to do here is provide fictional role models in place of the real ones which should be playing a part at this age.
There is a bit of that, and I'm not sure that's so bad.
_____________
quote:So is third grade reading the ultimate solution, or just step one?
quote:In this one speech, Obama showed a level of courage, thought, and dignity that far outstrips most parents...
And yet, as a teaching tool for dignity, that speech fails miserably on a number of levels -- including accessibility and relevance to the target audience. Whereas parents win handily in that category.
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quote: In this one speech, Obama showed a level of courage, thought, and dignity that far outstrips most parents(even if you don't agree with his vote), and further, that's why he'll continue to get re-elected.
If you're suggesting that Obama is represenative of the entire US Government, including the Education Department, and for that matter EVERY neighborhood school system across the country, I think you'll have a hard time proving it. I also think, that regardless of how good an idea you think it is, you'll have a hard time selling to parents across the country the idea that they are incapable of teaching their kids the basic principles of being a good human being but not to worry, because the US Government can fix it for them.
And quite frankly, I think your toughest audience will be minorities.
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There is a great scene in Hart's Hope where the street kid (Flea?) participated in the dangerous activity of snake dancing. Orem asked him why he did it, and I can't remember his answer, but it had something to do with dignity and self-respect. I wish I had that book here.
posted
Since this is starting to look more and more like a dog-pile, I just want to mention that I do agree with Irami that teaching self-respect and dignity is important.
I also wouldn't be opposed to trying to bring this teaching into the public education system.
I'm not quite sure how this would go, however.
What, exactly, would this entail?
When I was going through the public school system, the big push was for "self-esteem". We had some classroom talks about it, and a couple presentations to the whole school, but I don't think it effected even one single student.
The best way I can think of to have the education system teach self-respect and dignity is through charity work, but then we are back to teaching service.
Can you explain how we would bring this goal into the education system Irami? Perhaps that would make it more palpable for those of us who are skeptical.
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quote:The best way I can think of to have the education system teach self-respect and dignity is through charity work, but then we are back to teaching service.
*steeples his fingers* Yes. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I think that dignity, character, and self-respect can be culitivated in the classroom by the thoughtful consideration and discussion of good literature and philosophy. It's in my bones.
I imagine that that's entire point of Sunday school, or at least, it should be.
Teaching character and teaching self-respect are two different things.
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posted
In the beginning, it starts with fables, and then as the children become older, the issues are more complex and the decisions less obvious, thereby cultivating morality and a sense of humanity and character in the student.
In theory, this is what all humanities and social science classes should be doing constantly. In fifth grade, you can do an entire day on the first ten pages of Ender's Game. The goal is two-fold, to wrestle with these decisions in an engaging manner before they present themselves in real time. And secondly, to develop a sense of individuality and compassion that literature is uniquely suited to cultivate. Martha Nussbaum wrote a book called, Poetic Justice where she describes why and how literature is uniquely suited and necessary for cultivating some parts of judicial reasoning.
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posted
I agree with a great deal of what Irami has posted, in particular:
quote:Cultivating dignity and self-respect is the parents responsibility and it is the school's responsibility.
quote:I think that dignity, character, and self-respect can be culitivated in the classroom by the thoughtful consideration and discussion of good literature and philosophy. It's in my bones.
More later, Aerin just threw up on me. Again.
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posted
This is a little off the current discussion, but keeping with the main gist. Just this morning a friend of mine told me of what happened to her husband today. He bought a bus for their business (a non-profit rehab house for recovering addicts). When he went to the local tag office to get tags for the vehicle they refused to give him one, even though he had all the signed paperwork in his hands. Their reasoning: he is a black man and black men don't own businesses in this area. Here's where it gets worse. They had him escorted out. This was in Lee county Georgia. So, for the record, racism is definitely not dead in the south. I told her if I was him I would sue.
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quote:In theory, this is what all humanities and social science classes should be doing constantly.
Most of the great dictatorships of the past century agreed with you, too. But I'm not comfortable with using our public schools for moral instruction at that level, Irami, for precisely that reason.
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posted
I don't think anyone has said that racism is dead in the South. I'm a Southerner and I know it continues to be a problem. I think what frustrates us is that there is racism everywhere, not just in the South. Also, the efforts of those of us who are working to correct it are either ignored or belittled.
And Lee County does not represent the entire state of Georgia. I'm from Gwinnett County and there are many black business owners there.
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posted
Getting kids to wrestle with the issues is not the same as narrowly inculcating dogma. I'm talking about promoting dialogue and stimulating thought, not the Hitler youth.
Granted, I do think once this is done, more kids will, of their own volition and out of a sense of humanity, choose to become more engaged in school, not to steal cars, not to do drugs, and not have unprotected sex.
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quote:Getting kids to wrestle with the issues is not the same as narrowly inculcating dogma. I'm talking about promoting dialogue and stimulating thought.
How would you do that with third-graders, again?
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posted
Irami, I have to say as I'm reading through this thread that although I'm not in agreement with all of your ideas, I really do admire the way you've thoughtfully responded to the questions and criticisms without becoming defensive (or more importantly, offensive).
I have started typing responses in this thread several times, but I'm slow and the thread is moving fast, so by the time I have a post typed out, the salient points have already been addressed and passed by, and that will probably be true of this one but I won't hit refresh this time and peek before I post!
My fear and my experience is that children who are not getting the parental reinforcement and consistency at home are not equipped to care about discussions of moral dilemmas in literature. There are clearly exceptions, and just giving up is not an option. So we must try, as you have said, to teach self-respect and dignity in the schools. But as it has been said on here already, skill aquisition and success are the best tools for aquiring this basic self-respect. And I think it is blind to say that it is not the parents' primary responsibility; yes, it does become the role of society to step in when parents fail. But society does not have the primary responsibility for instilling dignity in children just because parents have abdicated their role. Society is then forced to come up with stopgap measures are.
I don't know what the answers are. How do we help parents understand their responsibilities when THEIR parents didn't teach them?
I personally feel that faith is the best answer--that it has a transformative power absent from any government or curriculum program. I know many will disagree with that, and in the meantime we have to work together as a society to come up with secular solutions. I'm just not sure what those solutions are. Most programs I've seen that have been successful in instilling self-respect have been extracurricular. I'm not impressed with the trends I've seen in education lately for rigidly imposing whatever curriculum program has been adopted by the state or community, without leeway for the teacher. I think it takes away the ability of the teachers to use their judgment and talents to the best of their ability. I do feel a caring teacher can work miracles, but as far as I can tell they're not being given a lot of leeway to do so.
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quote:n the beginning, it starts with fables, and then as the children become older, the issues are more complex and the decisions less obvious, thereby cultivating morality and a sense of humanity and character in the student.
But again, how do you go from teaching character and a sense of humanity to teaching self-respect and dignity? The two are not the same. I have known plenty of people with excellent character and poor self-respect - and even more with a lot of self-respect but who don't have correspondingly great character.
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quote:But again, how do you go from teaching character and a sense of humanity to teaching self-respect and dignity?
Well, if you have a strong and unbecoming character, you shouldn't have self-respect, you should change. Just as if you have a strong and unbecoming odor, you should bathe.
I imagine that part of being willing to change has to do with humility, but then again, a certain amount of humility is part of having shining character.
_________
Mrs. M,
I don't think I'm off base here. Your husband is a legal ethics professor, right? If ethics weren't able to be taught in the classroom, it would reduce his job to teaching manners. Instead of cultivating morality, his job would be teaching behavior.
Behavior can explain why we drive on the right side of the road as opposed to the left side. Behavior explains why women should not wear white shoes between labor day and memorial day. I think that the reasons as to why we shouldn't abandon children are deeper than mere behavior.
__________
Uprooted,
Faith is great, if you believe, but if you don't, it doesn't do too much. I actually think that one of the problems with black communities and leadership is that they rely too much on the influence of church.
posted
My mother couldn't even help me learn fractions.
I am honestly bewildered by all the opposition to Irami. Discussions about the humanities have always led to discussions about morals and ethics, especially literature. This starts at a very early age - Grimm's fairy tales were actually morality tales collected by the brothers.
Dang, I have to run out, but I have lots more to say on this subject. Until I get back (and have time), Irami, I'm behind you, friend.
quote:Mrs. M,
I don't think I'm off base here. Your husband is a legal ethics professor, right? If ethics weren't able to be taught in the classroom, it would reduce his job to teaching manners. Instead of cultivating morality, his job would be teaching behavior.
Behavior can explain why we drive on the right side of the road as opposed to the left side. Behavior explains why women should not wear white shoes between labor day and memorial day. I think that the reasons as to why we shouldn't abandon children are deeper than mere behavior.
Absolutely. Incidentally, his manners aren't stellar. I've been slowly transforming him into a Southern gentleman. Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs.M: Discussions about the humanities have always led to discussions about morals and ethics, especially literature.
I guess I don't see that those discussions have been abandoned. I would never want to see that happen -- in my brief foray into the public schools as an English teacher, having those discussions was my favorite part of the job, and I loved watching those kids work through their beliefs. I always talked about the moral dilemmas--but the kids brought with them their own inherent sense of right and wrong and how those dilemmas should be handled. I do believe in the humanities and their place in the curriculum, and will fight to keep them there, so that's not my beef. I just don't think it is the most effective way to teach dignity or self-respect.
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quote:Discussions about the humanities have always led to discussions about morals and ethics, especially literature.
Sure. But to propose that we integrate black men into the "mainstream" by teaching children more literature in second and third grade seems to me like a horribly, horribly holistic "solution" to the wrong problem.
quote:I think that the reasons as to why we shouldn't abandon children are deeper than mere behavior.
Irami, one of the things I can't quite understand is why you're equating teaching utility and service with "abandonment," whereas adding more literature to a curriculum is seen as a concrete solution.
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quote:Irami, one of the things I can't quite understand is why you're equating teaching utility and service with "abandonment," whereas adding more literature to a curriculum is seen as a concrete solution.
I think you are just putting the cart before the horse. I worry that you want to teach kids what to do before having the kids figure out why to do it.
By the way, isn't this the plot of a third of the science fiction stories that end up with some monster or bomb created.
Here is what I see, when you teach utility and service before literature, we end up with MBA students who are very good at being useful and serving to all of the lowest and profitable appetites of man. When we put skills and service ahead of literature, we run the risk of cultivating a society of personal assistants and marketing execs. It may even be a profitable society. But I think I'd rather live in a ghetto.
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posted
Irami, I don't think the majority of humanity truly wants answers to "why" questions in the way you are talking about. I think the people who ask the "why" questions are *always* in the minority, whether they be orange, blue or purple. I agree overall that getting people to ask "why" is a good thing. BUt I don't think it will solve the problem you think it will solve.
quote:I worry that you want to teach kids what to do before having the kids figure out why to do it.
That's EXACTLY right. That's EXACTLY what I want to teach. Because when you're teaching your kid not to touch a stove, you teach them NOT TO TOUCH THE STOVE even if they've never experienced a burn, even if they have no idea what real "heat" feels like, even if they've never even felt real pain. You tell them that they don't touch the stove for any reason, and then add the "why" later, once they've internalized the command. When you're teaching your kid to look both ways when crossing a street, or to stop when you yell "stop," you can go ahead and explain "why" -- but it's more important to teach the lesson first.
Understanding of "why" makes the appreciation of the lesson deeper, and makes it possible for the subject to personally advance beyond the teacher in the future. But it's more important to make sure you've got the "what" and the "how" really, really down before you move to "why."
Consider murder. I don't want to have to explain to my kids why they shouldn't kill people. I want them to know that we don't kill people -- I want them to absolutely internalize this standard -- and cover the "why" later. They might even come up with their own "whys" later, different ones from my own; I don't particularly care, to be honest, as long as the "what" doesn't change.
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posted
No, racism isn't dead in the South. But it's definitely not dead in the NORTH, either, and as I said, one of my huge problems with Chicago (and my classmates' probles in New York) was that for some reason, the people we met seemed to think that WE were all racist and THEY were more enlightened and advanced.
A lot of them would later make "towelhead" comments that made me wish I had a sword that could shoot out of my hand a la Ultraviolet. They made all kinds of racist comments...off-handedly, and for some reason what they were saying didn't occur to them. Perhaps because they weren't lynching tumbleweeds and gays, or something.
The big ones are, "Why should I keep going to school?" I do think that the majority of black kids do think about this. And too often, the answer that comes back isn't morally compelling. _____
As an aside, there are quite a few people who do what their parents and their community tells to do, right up until their 20s, 30s, 40s, or 50s, and by the time they think about the moral worth of school or their lucrative job and why they do what they are doing, they already have personal responsiblities, habits, or debt that keep them in line feeding the cycle. The problem is that these people are too often billed as role models or success stories.
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Here is what I see, when you teach utility and service before literature, we end up with MBA students who are very good at being useful and serving to all of the lowest and profitable appetites of man. When we put skills and service ahead of literature, we run the risk of cultivating a society of personal assistants and marketing execs. It may even be a profitable society. But I think I'd rather live in a ghetto.
So MBA students (apparently, especially white MBA students) know nothing beyond...what, business?
Are you aware of the range of knowledge one needs to be truly effective in business?
quote:I do think that the majority of black kids do think about this. And too often, the answer that comes back isn't morally compelling.
Which is why the lesson you teach is "you go to school, period, because mommy and daddy tell you to and you do what we say." College is when the little dears get to worry about what's "morally compelling;" it's the parents' job to make sure the kids don't even get to choose whether to get a basic education or not.
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quote:So MBA students (apparently, especially white MBA students) know nothing beyond...what, business?
Are you aware of the range of knowledge one needs to be truly effective in business?
Yes, I do. Ph, good luck in the music business. I'm probably not going to like what you do, but I'm sure you'll be good at it. I hope you get your Phaeton, and your private jet with the hot tub.
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quote:I am honestly bewildered by all the opposition to Irami. Discussions about the humanities have always led to discussions about morals and ethics, especially literature. This starts at a very early age - Grimm's fairy tales were actually morality tales collected by the brothers.
Yes, but why is it specifically "white people" that Irami blames for that lack of discussion? I don't see how any of this supports Irami's earlier claims.
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Yes, I do. Ph, good luck in the music business. I'm probably not going to like what you do, but I'm sure you'll be good at it. I hope you get your Phaeton, and your private jet with the hot tub.
My point was that GOOD businesspeople aren't profit-centered robots. You HAVE to be a well-rounded person, and I don't think that you can become a well-rounded person unless you WANT to be one. You can't just know about whatever field you're going into in business. You have to know about literature and music theory and science and random things that no one ever thought you'd actually need to remember.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I can't figure out why it's more moral to sell wireless internet access than music.
Because people who sell music are evil corporate whore sellouts. See, you aren't REAL unless you're barely able to support yourself in a minimum standard of living.
posted
An anecdote supporting the statement that racism is still a problem in the south:
Some friends of my brother's at LSU had a MLK day BBQ, with 40s, dice, and rap music. One of my friends from Montana went to it, and had a blast. He called me later that week and, in the course of recapping, asked me why we'd never thrown a party like that in Butte. To which I replied, "People in Montana aren't that racist."
He said, "That barbeque was racist? How so? Everybody was having a good time, and no one was ripping MLK."
"Yeah," I said, "but it's not as if the point of the bbq was to honor MLK and his contributions to the civil rights movement, was it? It was mocking the day, and the stereotypical version of the people who really celebrate it."
That hadn't occured to him at all, that there was some underlying animosity towards black people for how big MLK day has become to them. Of course, in Montana the Indians were the designated whipping boys.
And it's not that any of these guys really hate all black people. They don't fly the confederate flag, or call every black person a n-----; they just did it because they thought it would be a funny idea for a party on a Monday where no one has class. But the underlying tensions are all still there, if you know what to look for.
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quote:I worry that you want to teach kids what to do before having the kids figure out why to do it.
You kinda have to do this, for this reason:
quote:Because when you're teaching your kid not to touch a stove, you teach them NOT TO TOUCH THE STOVE even if they've never experienced a burn...
It seems like half of educating children is keeping them from stupidly killing themselves before they're even aware that some things are dangerous. When you move into murkier territory like politics, this gets orders of magnitude harder. Try explaining "hate crimes" to an 8-year-old... hell, I can't explain why it makes any sort of sense to myself, let alone to a kid, I can simply promise what the consequences are.
Try to remember BEING a kid. You had to depend on adults for a LOT... they knew shit you didn't know, like why you shouldn't touch a hot stove, or why you shouldn't jump off the roof using an umbrella for a parachute.
If you try to have every kid learn every thing the hard way, you're going to wind up with two things: (1) kids that didn't learn much, other than that hot stoves burn your fingers, and (2) kids that don't trust adults for squat, because the adults KNEW ALL ALONG that touching a hot stove would burn your fingers, but didn't say anything.
Now, I understand that reflexively you think that if children are being taught things you think are WRONG, you want to take away the teaching altogether. I would strongly encourage you to rethink this position.
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posted
JT, it sounds similar to a white trash party. I've never heard of one here, but I know they have them in Florida and Chicago. Everybody wears wifebeaters, and the girls wear gstrings with the strings above their pants and bad makeup and I don't even know what else and drink beer.
posted
Both fine industries. I believe in internet access. People should have music, and people should have internet access. But you aren't going to see me lauding the rigors and rewards of business administration. Even if it is hard, labor intensive work, it is still small compared to the dignity in teaching literature well, or writing a morally engaging story.
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