quote:An early Christian manuscript, including the only known text of what is known as the Gospel of Judas, has surfaced after 1,700 years. The text gives new insights into the relationship of Jesus and the disciple who betrayed him, scholars reported today. In this version, Jesus asked Judas, as a close friend, to sell him out to the authorities, telling Judas he will "exceed" the other disciples by doing so.
posted
I found that story to be interesting. I struggle with my own faith. I have a hard time reconciling the bible as being divinely written and all of the evidence that early Christians played a huge role in what was included and what was left out. This certainly furthers my curiosity about how much personal opinion went into writing down the Bible and including various sections.
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posted
This is interesting, and it's certainly a significant find, but it's worth noting that there are scads of gospels from the first couple of centuries CE that offer a different take on Christ and Christianity than those that became canon.
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posted
That goes along with a sort of pet theory a friend had, that Satan was not the "great betrayer" but the most trusted of God's angels, even now - he's just "doing the job" God asked him to do, filling a loathsome role because someone had to do it.
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quote:"This gospel," he said, "has a completely different understanding of God, the world, Christ, salvation, human existence—not to mention of Judas himself—than came to be embodied in the Christian creeds and canon."
Which is probably why it was regarded as non-canonical.
Theresa, here's a quick layman's summary of where the bible came from. There are probably inaccuracies, but it's fairly correct.
The books in the Christian Bible were chosen in a series of Ecumenical Councils in the 4th and early 5th centuries, AD. Some books were not in all canons and these were refered to as "deuterocanonical". Many of these from the Old Testament were not availible in any translation other than the (Greek) Septuagint and these were not part of the Jewish Canon of the time. At the reformation, many, if not all, Protestants also removed these books from their canon as well.
LDS have added scriptures, notably The Book of Mormon, to the Christian Canon, but I'm not sure which Old Testament Canon they use.
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posted
That would be the Protestant Canon, then, correct? IOW not the books of Tobit, Sirach, 1 & 2 Maccabees, etc?
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posted
Hmm, thats not really how I meant my statement to be taken but I am having problems finding a way to clarify it. I don't mean that I am confused as to how the books were chosen. I am aware of the historical aspects. I guess for me it is more an uncertainty about how influenced those events were by a divine source. In other words, is the Bible today what God intended it to be both in what is included and what is not included, or did it wind up that way based on the votes of early religous figures? I don't think this is something that can ever be known. It is a matter of faith. So, I guess I wasn't looking for an explanation. Simply sharing that I felt that new books surfacing is interesting and makes me wonder how much influence the divine had in choosing what was included.
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As an aside, I was always fascinated by the way the betrayal was played in the movie "Jesus Christ, Superstar"
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posted
No problem. I realize that the orignal post did come across that way when I reread it. I just wanted to clarify.
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posted
Kung fu matters not when your opponent is undead, 2000 years old, and capable of using his magical vampiric powers to force people to bend to his will.
Oh, and he can also have sex on the ceiling.
That alone is a sure sign that he can kick your ass.
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Well, Jim, I'm sorry. I was totally planning to jump your bones, but you know, I just need my lovers to be able to have sex on the ceiling. I'm a woman; I have needs!
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So Jesus really did want to be turned in. like a jaded mandarin, like a jaded faded jaded faded jaded mandarin. Intriguing.
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The one on your bookshelf -- are those books marked as apocrypha, or as just other books in the bible?
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Oh, they're separated apart, meaning they're not incorporated with the other portion of the Old Testament. There are very few English translations that merge them together - such as the Catholic NAB and New Jerusalem Bible. (And at least the NJB , while instegrasted, still includes the old KJV Chapter system for the 'additions' books -like Additions to Esther- Where later chapter numbers are inserted in the middle of the text to restore them to their proper position. Remnants of the proliferation and standardization of the KJV of the text)
But the Apocrypha were part of the original KJV translation, and also were a part of the Revised Standard Version. They are not any more separated than the Old or New Testaments are - a single page with the text, "The Apocrypha - Translated out of the original tongues: and with the former translations diligently compared and revised, by his majesty's special command" - While it's true that nearly all modern publications of the KJV are sans Apocrypha (I don't believe the KJV even holds a Catholic imprimatur), the original publications of it, and many thereafter, included that portion within the binding of 'The Holy Bible: Authorized King James Version'.
Not that it's really worth an argument Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
It's not that big a deal to me... gnosticism is very low on my choices of worldviews, so it's not like I'll be revising any beliefs based on this.
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posted
Awww, and I thought Jim waas teasing me with his JCS comment immediately after my quoting the same piece.
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posted
Thing is, this text has been known to have existed forever. We have a nice denunciation of it by Iraenius in the second century, including a brief summary of its contents. It's neat and nifty to have the actual text of it, but I don't think it's as big a deal as they're making it out to be.
I still don't get all the hubbub about Gospel of Thomas. Apart from that final saying in Thomas (which IMHO seems very out of place in the text), that text is actually very much in line with what I do believe. ho hum.
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posted
No, Goody, I remembered *that* section, which was very powerful and inspired my comment... I just don't remember the "jaded faded Mandarin" line at all... Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Yeah, I'm sure it's a forgery. It fits *modern* sensibilities too well. It showed up in a burglary, rather than in a crypt.
There was another hoax I was very interested in: the shroud of Turin. The maker seemed to know things medeivals wouldn't. (That face thing was weird -- a cloth wrapped around a real human face would show a distorted image; but this wasn't distorted.) Later they tested it: sorry, it only dates back to around 1200 I think it was.
Seeing it reminded me of the real suffering Christ endured. But it was still a fake.
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posted
"I still don't get all the hubbub about Gospel of Thomas."
The hubbub is that the Gospel of Thomas is considered by some to be more authentic than the Four Gospels. Not that it is older as is, but that it contains older material all in one handy fragment. And that is important because some argue that it is proof that all that "Jesus as Divine" stuff was later additions and not to be trusted. The teachings themselves are not that special, although with a Gnostic flavor.
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quote: "This gospel," he said, "has a completely different understanding of God, the world, Christ, salvation, human existence—not to mention of Judas himself—than came to be embodied in the Christian creeds and canon."
I would be more impressed if it wasn't written by Judas. Anyone can write about how essential and good they are.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by pH: Jim, everyone KNOWS that Judas is still roaming the earth as a vampire. The movie said so. Duh.
-pH
I hadn't realized this.
Think of the parallels though... Ender the xenocide ranges the cosmos for 3 thousand years before he finally reveals himself. Judas, the Judas, ranges earth for 2 thousand years before revealing himself... Spooky?
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