posted
This Video linked in the comments thread is actually just as good. Much more sharply executed, although it's very obvious the actors have lots of martial arts training where the teenagers look more like they took fencing classes.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Oh, thank you erosomniac! I saw that vid several years ago, and have been looking for it ever since. I was just about to ask if anyone knew of it, and then I saw your comment. Yay!
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Both those duels had some good moments, but I kind of liked the first one better. While the kids in both films seemed to have mad skillz (and, just for the sake of being anal, fencing is a martial art), the fighting in the first seemed more utilitarian and less unnecessarily flashy. It was also filmed better, it had some really creative and amusing touches, and it left out the weepy music and the Ken Burns Civil War letter to home scene.
Still, both were quite remarkable for homemade fan-films. Rock on.
Posts: 563 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Baron Samedi: Both those duels had some good moments, but I kind of liked the first one better. While the kids in both films seemed to have mad skillz (and, just for the sake of being anal, fencing is a martial art), the fighting in the first seemed more utilitarian and less unnecessarily flashy. It was also filmed better, it had some really creative and amusing touches, and it left out the weepy music and the Ken Burns Civil War letter to home scene.
Still, both were quite remarkable for homemade fan-films. Rock on.
To be anal, fencing is not a martial art.
Martial Art (Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th Ed., 2006): various forms of self-defense, usually weaponless, based on techniques developed in ancient China, India, and Tibet.
Fencing doesn't fall under that category, having been developed in Europe and the Middle East.
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posted
Eros, that's a fairly narrow, colloquial, and, IMO unrealistic definition, even if it is from an encyclopedia.
That having been said, I liked both films and there was a lot of extraneous flash in both, really... (warning, waxing philosophical ahead... skip the rest unless you are really into martial arts).
I preferred the Chinese one because, well, I study a Chinese style for one. But, while the one was well choreographed and performed and had a neat twist ending, the Chinese guys (I'm calling them that because it was distinctly Wu Shu and not Kendo, not as a comment on the actors/fighters) showed a lot more prowess and, even though it was flashier, gave more credence to the need for good body mechanics in the fight (not to say that the other guys were *bad* at all-- I'm not so much being critical of them as I really dug the Chinese guys).
This might be less important with lightsabers, which apparently cut through anything, in any direction, without effort, but, in a real sword (or even knife) fight, striking properly is the difference between making your opponent say "ow" and making him bleed to death.
The other thing I was gonna say was that there seems to be this idea that two really great fighters would have some kind of epic battle... I think the long battles... the most fun to watch, would be between two evenly matched, moderately skilled fighters. Really effective fighters would dispatch each other quickly. In recorded duels between Myamoto Mushashi and other master swordsmen of his time, it was typically parry, counterattack, other guy falls. I don't think this was just him being that much more skilled, but really more the level of both fighters showing through.
quote:Eros, that's a fairly narrow, colloquial, and, IMO unrealistic definition, even if it is from an encyclopedia.
<shrug> The idea that fencing is a martial art basically suggests that all forms of melee combat are martial arts, which defeats the purpose of the term. A precise (or, if you prefer, narrow) definition is far more useful.
quote:The other thing I was gonna say was that there seems to be this idea that two really great fighters would have some kind of epic battle... I think the long battles... the most fun to watch, would be between two evenly matched, moderately skilled fighters. Really effective fighters would dispatch each other quickly. In recorded duels between Myamoto Mushashi and other master swordsmen of his time, it was typically parry, counterattack, other guy falls. I don't think this was just him being that much more skilled, but really more the level of both fighters showing through.
Makes sense, given that the entire point of kendo is to dispatch your opponent with one attack.
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posted
Martial means fighting or war, derived from Mars, the Greek god of war. Any art that codifies fighting styles is a martial art. If you want a more narrow term, feel free to add modifiers like "Asian" to it. But martial arts have been developed all around the world, and if you exclude things like Capoeira, Sambo, freestyle wrestling, boxing, fencing, kickboxing (Thai or American), savate, quarterstaff, and even archery and gunplay, you've got a very insular view of the subject.
Posts: 563 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: The idea that fencing is a martial art basically suggests that all forms of melee combat are martial arts, which defeats the purpose of the term.
I'd modify it to say that all systematic study of melee combat is Martial Arts.
Some drunk swinging away at a bar, may not be.
but it doesn't really matter as long as everyone knows what the other person means when they say the words.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Some drunk swinging away at a bar, may not be. [Wink]
CLEARLY you have not seen Drunken Master.
quote:Martial means fighting or war, derived from Mars, the Greek god of war. Any art that codifies fighting styles is a martial art. If you want a more narrow term, feel free to add modifiers like "Asian" to it. But martial arts have been developed all around the world, and if you exclude things like Capoeira, Sambo, freestyle wrestling, boxing, fencing, kickboxing (Thai or American), savate, quarterstaff, and even archery and gunplay, you've got a very insular view of the subject.
Call it whatever you want - it's still just a difference in semantics, and I still find your definition useless.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Those kids will be like Rich once they get outta college. All the special effects studios will try to get their hands on them. That type of computer animation is hard to do. I was really impressed even if some of the acting was a little sour.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Your definition is hopelessly limited, making it nearly useless. We can specify geography with an adjective (European, Asian, South American).
Otherwise, we need a whole new word for many (possibly most) of the "things that we would be calling martial arts but aren't because you are for some reason limiting it to a single continent."
And once and for all, will people please stop trying to minimize a distinction by calling it "just" semantics. Semantics aren't "just." They are important. There is a category of thing to which karate, aikido, kendo, wrestling, boxing, savate, fencing, Krav Maga, and many, many others all belong. The important things about them have nothing to do with Asia.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Your definition is hopelessly limited, making it nearly useless. We can specify geography with an adjective (European, Asian, South American).
Otherwise, we need a whole new word for many (possibly most) of the "things that we would be calling martial arts but aren't because you are for some reason limiting it to a single continent."
Words and phrases for these things already exist. We don't need whole new words for anything - just precision of language.
quote:And once and for all, will people please stop trying to minimize a distinction by calling it "just" semantics. Semantics aren't "just." They are important. There is a category of thing to which karate, aikido, kendo, wrestling, boxing, savate, fencing, Krav Maga, and many, many others all belong. The important things about them have nothing to do with Asia.
The important things about them have nothing to do with what they're called, either.
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quote:Words and phrases for these things already exist. We don't need whole new words for anything - just precision of language.
Exactly. So please stop muddling it up.
quote:The important things about them have nothing to do with what they're called, either.
No, but when someone wants to refer to those things with a single phrase, it would be nice to not have that phrase encumbered with meaningless restrictions.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I'm not getting involved in the argument above, but I thought all of the videos were amazing. I personally liked the one with the teenagers better. It just felt more geeky to me, and that made me happy. Posts: 1789 | Registered: Jul 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Sounds like you need a lozenge, Orincoro.
When you say lozenge, I don't agree that your not using the archaic use of the word:
----------------------------------------------- Jo-shmoes Ancient Dictionary: lozenge (n) 1. the swift deportation of all people who do not subscribe to the weekly update of Webster's Mega-complete 21st century Dictionary on microdisk. 2. A swift kick in the pants -------------------------------------------
Given that that is my definition of the word, I take your comment as a grace insult.
*Challenges Dag to a Kirk/Spock style duel to the death, on a sandy plain with a red sky*
Du du du du du DUUUU!!!!! Du du du du du DUUUUUUUU!!!!
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posted
and Ray Park's Duel of the Fates was better than either of these... except for the ending (which I bet dollars to donuts wasn't his doing). So, of course, Lucas fired him and had the decent but comparatively weak and choppy choreography of II and III instead.
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posted
Good stuff. The chronicles of Pink Five are hilarious, too. "What do you mean, he takes every girl there?!"
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: and Ray Park's Duel of the Fates was better than either of these... except for the ending (which I bet dollars to donuts wasn't his doing). So, of course, Lucas fired him and had the decent but comparatively weak and choppy choreography of II and III instead.
Oh George Lucas, why must you punish success?
Though I should add that I thoroughly enjoyed the Anakin/Obi-wan duel at the end of III.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
It was better than the Grievous fight; that one kind of let me down. I was all hyped up about him from seeing Clone Wars. Though honestly, the part when Obi-wan and Anakin were fighting while clinging to that huge piece of falling machinery was pretty funny. And then when Obi-wan says, minutes later, "don't try it, Anakin. I have the high ground," I just burst out laughing. After all that, I'm to believe that a foot or two on a stable slope made all the tactical difference in the world?
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Though I should add that I thoroughly enjoyed the Anakin/Obi-wan duel at the end of III.
I did as well... and it's not like I could have done better,either.
But the fight between Darth Maul and the two Jedi in Ep I is far superior, especially on repeated viewings. Don't the endings all suck, though?
The endings on these two homemade films are both far superior to the ends of any of the Ep I-III fight endings.
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quote:don't try it, Anakin. I have the high ground
He was talking about the moral high ground. And having declared that he was taking the high road, he automatically lost the capacity to BE on the high road. And in despair, lopped off Anakin's limbs instead of doing something more useful, like throwing a boulder at him and knocking him out to take him prisoner.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: And in despair, lopped off Anakin's limbs instead of doing something more useful, like throwing a boulder at him and knocking him out to take him prisoner.
or actually, like, killing him or something...
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: The endings on these two homemade films are both far superior to the ends of any of the Ep I-III fight endings.
Well that's a problem inherent in the jedi-fight concept, isn't it?
After seeing these two guys twirl around in the air touching sabers in all manners imaginable, fighting eachother backwards, and jumping off gangways while swinging sabers around themselves and never getting singed... Its just a tad unbelievable that one of them will eventually actually hurt the other, since they both seem fairly invincible. The way Quigon gets it in the end is just pathetic compared to his skills isn't it? And how does Darth Maul get through a drawn out fight with TWO jedis, and then last 18 seconds against one?
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posted
It's really not that hard to believe at all. Lightsaber fighters aren't invincible. Sometimes a simple mistake, a misstep, a loss of concentration, or just an outwitting can cost them their life in a match where a single mistake can give the enemy the chance to slice off your head.
I honestly don't see it as a problem at all.
Darth Maul can't see the future. Obi-wan came up with a clever move and it worked. Why's that so hard to believe?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Well, isn't it basically the same move anakin tried on him, except from a much weaker position?
I don't have a problem at all with QUi-Gon's death-- he got smacked in the face and then taken...
Maul's death was just stupid, especially when the World's Greatest Jedi(tm) utterly failed to do the same thing.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Darth Maul can't see the future. Obi-wan came up with a clever move and it worked. Why's that so hard to believe?
I believe I was just trying to offer a little jab at Lucas for making his characters quick enough to fight impossible complex saber battles, only to die by the old "sword lying near the fallen soldier" trick. It really is a weak way to end a great fight.
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quote:He was talking about the moral high ground. And having declared that he was taking the high road, he automatically lost the capacity to BE on the high road. And in despair, lopped off Anakin's limbs instead of doing something more useful, like throwing a boulder at him and knocking him out to take him prisoner.
Maybe I need to watch the movie again (AAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA) because I have no idea what you're talking about.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:And in despair, lopped off Anakin's limbs instead of doing something more useful, like throwing a boulder at him and knocking him out to take him prisoner.
Or, you know, walking down the slope, stabbing Anakin through the head, getting back together with Yoda, rounding up the rest of the surviving Jedi, and going back to kick Palpatine's wrinkly butt. Instead of foisting the burden on two 1-day old kids.
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