posted
To set the scene, we live on a dead-end gravel road in the country. The doggies on our road run free (there are 9 of them) and that is acceptable to all who live on the road.
My neighbor called the other day. Seems that our dog and one of his dog friends got into his open garage. When the neighbor opened the smaller door to check on the noise, the dogs ran out, knocking him out of his (this is the terrible part) wheelchair. He says he thinks he broke his hip. But, this occurred on Monday, I got the call on Tuesday, and he hadn't been to a dr. yet.
He was incredibly kind, and pleaded with me NOT to tie our dog up and said that they were just doing what dogs do and that he'd most likely startled them. However, it appears he'd like help with his medical bills. The other dog owner, from what I gather, said no way.
I feel it's partially our responsibility to help with any medical bills, but Mr. Opera is unsure...after all, the neighbor is saying he broke his hip, but wasn't seeking any kind of medical care till this morning - 3 days later. I asked him when he called why he hadn't been to the dr. already, and he just replied that he had pain pills and would go later.
posted
If your dog was responsible for breaking his hip (he can only prove that by going to a Dr), then you are responsible for his medical expenses. I see this type of case on Judge Judy all the time. Its your fault because its your dog and your dog was on his property. The rest of the circumstances (such as no one ties up their dogs on your street) are not relevant.
The only complicating factor is the other dog owner. If you showed up in court as the sole defendant against this guy as the plaintiff (in a wheelchair, no less), I shudder to think what Judge Judy would do to you on broadcast television.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
My suggestion - offer to help out with the typical neighborly type things like bringing him some food while he is recovering. Do not admit liability or offer to help with any medical bills.
He has the burden of proof to establish that 1) he is actually medically hurt 2) the injuries were caused by dogs and 3) your dog was one of them.
Unless there is some hidden camera video that condemns your dog, then I would say he has a hard time proving that.
And, I know that you don't want to hear lectures, but get that dog in a fence ASAP. Not just for the dog's sake, but for your own. A loose dog is a walking liability, as you can now see.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Belle, she already admitted her dog was involved. That's all the liability that is required. If this guy fails to seek medical attention, then SO is off the hook and your advice to merely be "helpful" certainly applies.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Um, he needs to go to a doctor first. Then you'll talk. The other dog owner is equally as responsible as you are, and if the hip actually *is* broken, you shouldn't let them off the hook.
I would be quite surprised that he is walking (if he's walking) on a broken hip. And the fact that he didn't seek medical help right away is in your favor. The whole pain pills thing sounds fishy to me too.
It's not that you shouldn't be a good person, but you shouldn't let someone take advantage of your kindness either. But he's responsible for his own medical care and absolutely *don't* commit to anything until he's first seen a doctor.
He's got to prove it was your dog at the scene among other things, before I think he'd have a legal leg to stand on...
posted
I agree, although I would start tying my dogs up or only allowing them to run free while I was on scene.
HE says it was your dog, but you didn't see it, right? So SO has NOT admitted anyting of the kind, she was merely repeating what the neighbor said...read it again.
Sounds like he may be fishing, to be honest, although since I odn't know him myself I might be worng. He might also just use this to get MORE pain pills....
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Numinor West, I see where you're coming from, but I wasn't trying to use the excuse that everyone lets their dog run free to excuse our responsibility - it was just setting the scene, as I said.
I've offered to take him over some food, but he says he's fine. I'm just sooo torn here. Yep, it was our dog and he was on their property. But how in the heck do I know that's what really happened, since the neighbor has waited 3 days to go the dr.? I'm going to assume that if he has broken his hip that of course the medical bills will be higher now since he's probably made it worse every day that he didn't seek treatment.
Belle, I know. Looks like we'll be building a dog run this week.
posted
I don't see where SO admitted her dog was involved - all she said was "Seems that our dog and one of his dog friends got into his open garage." Seems that way according to who? The neighbor. All she is going on is his word.
There are a myriad of things that could be amiss about his statement. He could be making it up. It could have happened exactly like he said but have been two other dogs, and SO's dog is in the clear. Can he positively state with total certainty that it was her dog? How does he know that? It sounds like he only saw them for a moment, if they knocked him over while running out, so he could have been mistaken. How good is his eyesight?
These are all questions a good lawyer will be asking. SO is not automatically responsible for this guy's medical bill, not matter what you think Judge Judy would say.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I don't know that an informal admission that it was your dog via phone call, is the same thing as a legal admission. Either way the guy has to get to the doc first.
posted
What kind of dog is is that it can knock a guy out of a wheelchair? It would have to hit him pretty darn hard.
And is he positive it was your dog? Is it not possible that it was one of the other 9 dogs on the street and he made a mistake?
And he didn't go the doctor? Come on, if you break your hip, pain pills aren't enough. If he fell out of a wheelchair and broke his hip (and that doesn't sound entirely plausible anyway) then he would have been in such excrutiating pain that he would have had to call someone.
But you say he's a nice guy, so I guess I shouldn't be cinical and assume he's trying to rip you off. But is it at least possible that he could be?
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Asking for money before even heading to the doctor with what he said he suspected was a broken hip sounds very fishy to me.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Space: I can only speak for small claims court because the Judge has the discretion to base her ruling on believability. If she believes your dog was involved (and you admit it was), then you will be responsible whether or not the victim has rock-solid proof. His eye-witness testimony (as the victim) is all the proof that is required. I wish a legal expert would chime in because i'm only a Judge Judy expert. Sorry.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
For several years our Airedale was lose during the day, well actually our ten acre property is entirely bordered by fencing except for the exit of the driveway. Once she walked across the road and took an ear of corn out of the neighbor's garden that was way too close to the road (and this was December, so he couldn't use the excuse of planning to harvest it). He called Animal Control. Luckily all they did was come give us a warning, and my parents fenced a large area off for her (so that she couldn't leave). But the neighbor admitted this happened only once, and that when he had pet sat for us a year or so before that he had taken her on a walk over to his garden.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Mr. Opera is out of town till late tonight, and our neighbor knows this. Yesterday he called wanting to know if I'd talked to my husband and what he'd said. His words were, "Sometimes husbands aren't very nice about this sort of thing."
I just told him that Mr. Opera and I hadn't had a lot of time to talk (we haven't) and that Mr. Opera would call as soon as he got home.
To be completely honest, I think it's very likely that our dog and another *did* knock him down, and I have NO problem helping financially. I am VERY worried however that there could be something fishy going on, since he didn't go to the dr. right away and seems to have completely written off the other dog owner. I'm afraid he's going to want us to pay for everything, which I don't think is our responsibility.
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Belle, true it doesn't matter what I or Judge Judy would say. It matters what the Judge says that hears the case, if it goes that far. But I assume small claims courts are consistent in every state as far as burden of proof.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
It sounds very fishy. The statement "sometimes husbands aren't very nice about this sort of thing" sounds like he's trying to take advantage of the fact that you're more soft-hearted than Mr. Opera, and that just screams "scam." Don't offer financial assistance without talking to a lawyer first. [edit: not to get out of helping, but to make sure that offering to pay part of his expenses doesn't legally open you to liabilty for all of them.]
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Except if he has insurance he may still have to pay a copay, and this guy might expect her to pay that.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
When he called looking for money again, did he share the results of the doctor visit? Has he even been?
I think this is very fishy. Don't give him any money or any promises to give money until it's all been worked out.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
At this point I'd call a lawyer, just to be ready and to know what you can say.
I won't comment on specifics except to say that Numinor West's analysis is almost certainly woefully incomplete. Heck, in some states, a a dog owner is not negligent for a dog bite unless the owner has reason to know that the dog is prone to bite. (The common legal saying "every dog gets one free bite" is not accurate, but there's some truth in it.) If biting doesn't always lead to liability, then knocking over a wheelchair might not lead to liability, either. It's highly fact- and state- dependent. Further, if there is no leash law, then the fact that all the neighbors accept wandering dogs very well might be admissible in your favor, although it very well might not be. So at this point, make no assumptions about what you legally owe.
You might feel it's your responsibility to pay, anyway. You have to evaluate that based on your own judgment of this person's credibility AND taking into account the other dog's involvement.
I would talk to a lawyer before paying anything, to make sure you don't make any inadvertent admissions. Do be careful what you say to this man, and find out if your state is a one- or two-party conesnt to record state.
I'd be reluctant to pay ANYTHING without getting access to the medical records and doctor, so you can find out whether the delay in seeking treatment increased the costs. If you do pay, you want a waiver of liability from him, which your lawyer would need to draft.
Others have commented well on the credibility issue here.
quote:Also, if he has insurance, you are not responsible for medical bills.
This is flat out wrong in many states. He would have to pay back the insurance company anything he recovered that they had paid, but just because insurance paid the bill doesn't mean there wouldn't be liability.
However, if you decide to look at this simply from your own feeling of responsibility, you should certainly not be letting him double dip from insurance and from you.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
If he's not even worrying about the other dog owner then he's just taking advantage of your kindness. Since he's not trying to get them to pay, he knows that he doesn't have a leg to stand on.
(HAHA! get it, he's in a wheelchair; leg to stand on, its funny! I know someone already made that pun, but I wanted to too.)
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
He was supposed to go to the dr. this morning - I haven't heard from him yet. I'm guessing we won't know what the dr. said till Mr. Opera phones.
But yeah - I would have no problem at all paying a simple co-pay or two. He did say (now that I think about it) that he could just have his dr. bill our insurance. So it sounds like he's possibly wanting us to pay for everything.
I suppose if that happens we'll call an attorney. I just hate for it to get to that point. I want to be responsible if our dog caused injury, but I don't want to be taken advantage of, either.
Does your dog-bite analysis take into consideration where this takes place? Logically, it seems it should be a pertinent factor.
If a dog wonders into my yard and bites my child, I would be horrified to discover that has the same legal weight as if my child wandered into someone else's yard and got bit.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2006
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I'm just being very paranoid and want to make it clear that I have expressed no opinion as to whether it's legal or not. Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Last year, my son was jogging around town and he walked up to a dog that was tied up, barking viciously at him, and he tried to pet it. Yeah, he got bit. Nothing serious except for the possibility of rabis, but it never occured to me that those people might be liable for my son's stupidity.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Plain and simple fraud. The question remaining being whether the lawyer and physician he hires were in on the fraud. File a criminal complaint with the police, immediately. You are going to be defending anyway: might as well have your fraud charge on record.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Just one other thing to consider, though it may or may not apply: if the man is not able to walk and must use a wheelchair, it is entirely possible that he has limited sensation in the lower part of his body. He also may have a chronically dislocated hip or fracture history.
That is to say, I wouldn't be terribly surprised at that part of the story (namely, that he didn't seek medical assistance right away). I would have advised him to do so myself, but what holds true for someone of typical health does not necessarily hold true for someone with a chronic medical condition. If you or I broke a hip, the pain would be intense. It may or may not be (or have been) for him, and he may have preferred to wait until his own physician was in the office rather than, say, go directly to the ER. I can see why this decision might be made in this context, given certain assumptions, even if I don't think it was necessarily the best decision.
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Edited x 2 to add:
[If he is wheelchair-bound for mobility and prone to fractures (i.e., with atrophy-related bone loss), casting a broken bone might not be an option for him. Casting could -- in theory, just supposing hypothetically here -- make him more prone to pressure sores, and if the casting wouldn't lead to some improvement (like, say, mobility), he may have been aware that his regular physician wouldn't have done anything except control the pain anyway. Depends on the particulars of the case, and I don't have access to those to judge how likely this hypothetical may be.]
[Also recall that a "broken bone" can be a hairline fracture without displacement. It can be virtually undetectable on physical exam, apart from pain, which he might or might not have had to a greater or lesser degree. This sometimes can be picked up on x-rays, sometimes only on x-rays taken later (after the bone has had time to form a raised calcified callus), and sometimes only on a special bone scan. If he has limited sensation, he might just be aware that his bones fracture easily.]
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It's just a possibility. As for the rest of the behavior, it does raise my suspicious, cynical eyebrow. (That's the left one. The right one is for flirting. )
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
As a good neighbor I think you should offer to pay 1/2 of the copay on the insurance... and that he needs to take up the other half of that with the other dog owner. That just seems to be the ethical thing to do in my oppionion. If he seeks further than that, then you should consider a lawyer as suggested above. But, if it comes down to a lawyer, it might create some hostility in the nieghborhood. but you should also be aware that if it becomes a hostle argument then you might end up liable for more money than jsut bills, he could also sue for pain and suffering.
Posts: 104 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
A couple of things. I looked up Indianadog laws and it looks like you need to keep your dog off other people's property, no matter what you have all agreed on. And keep in mind that just because you have what I assume is an informal verbal agreement, it does not release you from liability resulting from your dog's actions and it does not mean that your neighbors cannot take legal action against you for said actions.
I think that you are safe in this case - your neighbor cannot prove that your dog attacked him and it seems that he had to report injuries within 72 hours and failed to do so. I would advise you to stop discussing it with him and contact a lawyer.
I also feel compelled to say that I think letting 9 dogs run around (what I believe is) a semi-rural area is wrong (not to mention against the law in your state). My mother and cousin were attacked by 3 of our neighbor's dogs and could have been killed if a police officer hadn't happened to be riding by (he had to shoot one of the dogs). Both of them had extensive injuries to their legs and hundreds of stitches - my cousin had 2 surgeries and had to give up track (and she had had a really good chance of going to State that year). Both of them are also now terrified of dogs. The animal control officer told us that when dogs are allowed to roam free in wooded areas, they tend to revert and become feral packs. I hope that you and your neighbors consider this a wake-up call and keep your dogs in your own yards for everyone's safety.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Haven't heard back from him, so I don't know what his dr. has said.
Mrs. M., I do appreciate what you have said. I feel the need to clarify though that I did not state, nor did my neighbor state, that he was attacked. Just wanted to make that clear! He said that the dogs knocked him over because they ran through the small garage door, which he was blocking. I don't think we are released from liability AT ALL, as I've said several times. Our dog, our fault. I was simply seeking advice as to the best way to handle the situation so that everyone (including myself) is treated fairly.
Again, in no way was the neighbor attacked. I'd hate for anyone else to get that impression from my posts. The tragedy that happened to your family members is terrible. As I stated several posts up, we are building a dog run.
posted
Oh my gosh Mrs. M! I just finally had the time to check your blog for the first time in a long while....Aerin is so gorgeous and glowing! I'm soooo happy to hear how well she's doing.
posted
SO, is your state one that has duel liability? That may not be what it's legally called, but it means that if anything you do contributes to your injury, the other party is not liable. I think I have that right.
In other words, blocking a door with charging dogs may well be considered as him contributing to his own injury.
I'm going to repeat what others have said and urge you not to talk to him at all if you can. My advice is to retain an attorney. When he calls again, tell him that you have legal representation and he needs to talk to your attorney from now on.
You keep saying you admit your dog was involved. Did you see it? You don't really know if your dog was in that garage or not. All you have is this man's word and he hasn't exactly proven himself to be completely on the up and up, what with that "I'll just have my doctor bill your insurance." That statement sent all kinds of alarms off in my head. If he is wanting to take advantage of you now, how do you know he didn't fabricate the whole thing?
Get an attorney, and not only should you be careful what you say around this man, especially on the phone, my advice is actually not to talk to him at all. Refer him to your attorney, instead.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:SO, is your state one that has duel liability? That may not be what it's legally called, but it means that if anything you do contributes to your injury, the other party is not liable. I think I have that right.
That's called the "doctrine of contributory negligence." If the plaintiff negligently contributed to the injury at all, then no recovery is allowed.
The other type is called "comparative negligence," and it states that the jury should assign a percentage of fault to each participant and adjust the award accordingly. The catch is that all the defendants are jointly and severally liable.
Example: Suppose the jury were to find the homeowner 20% at fault, and each dog owner 40% at fault, with damages of $100. Under contributory negligence, the homeowner recovers nothing.
Under comparative negligence, the homeowner is entiteld to $80, with each dog owner paying $40. However, if dog-owner 1 can't pay, dog-owner 2 has to pay the full $80. Dog-owner 2 will have a cause of action against dog-owner 1 for $40.
These are the paradigm examples. Some systems are a hybrid of the two, and there are many variations.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
SO, Does your homeowners insurance cover you for damages done by your dog which did not occur on your property? You need to find this out before Mr. Opera talks to the guy. If not, (and I would guess not), having "The doctor simply bill your insurance" wouldn't even be an option. If your insurace does cover this, the insurace company may require that you get rid of the dog as a condition of further insurance. Make sure you know all of this before you agree to or admit anything.
My guess, from what you've said, is that the neighbor is simply assuming that your insurace will cover things. If he finds out differently, it may change his actions.
There are several things you (or Mr. Opera) should tell this guy when you next speak to him.
1. You can't discuss any payments until you have a complete Dr's assessment of his injuries including whether the injuries are consistent with his story. To be polite, you may want to say something like "We are so sorry about your accident, can you please provide us with the doctor's report and an estimate of bills so that we can decide how best to help." If he is hesitant to comply with that request, then I'd get more forceful.
2. Ask him to provide some verification that the accident actually happened this way and that your dog was involved. I don't know how you can do this politely, perhaps you can claim your insurance needs this information.
3. Make it clear that liability needs to be shared with the other dog owner.
quote:In other words, blocking a door with charging dogs may well be considered as him contributing to his own injury.
From SO's story, I don't think the guy was intentionally blocking the door. He was opening the door. He is in a wheelchair so it was probably impossible for him to manouver out of the way of the charging dogs. In this case, I think its unlikely that any judge would find a man in a wheelchair to be even partially liable for the original injury. If, however, there were complications because he waited 3 days to see the doctor, then I can see some serious liability on his part.
Something about the story seems a bit strange from the get go. The dogs got in to the open garage, presumably through a large open garage door, but when the owner came to investigate the dogs charged out through the small door that was blocked by him rather than fleeing out the way they came in?
It just doesn't sound right to me. Had the dogs been shut into the garage? Maybe the door was closed by remote so this was an accident. Charging out the small door past the man would be understandable behavior if the dogs had been shut into the garage but it just doesn't make sense if the garage door was still open.
If the owner had shut the dogs into his garage, even by accident, then I think he would be at least partially liable for incident. I'd ask him again to explain what happened because the story just doesn't make much sense.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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This is a very important point - you'd be surprised what your homeowner's insurance will cover in terms of legal actions. But you'll have to look it over and maybe have a lawyer look it over as well.
Posts: 54 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Homeowner's insurance salesman here. Depending on what state you live in, your homeowner's liability will cover it up to whatever limits you selected on your policy. Find out how much the bills are though before you call them. If you file the claim your rates are bound to go up for 3-5 years, so just make sure it will be worth it.
Also by filing it that way it might be on some sort of state record. I remember in some law course I took in college something about 1 personal injury case per dog is allowed, after that it could be put down. That might just be biting though.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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