quote:That's not quite the same thing, though, as actually rejecting God. "I believe that the Catholic God exists, but reject Catholicism" is hugely different in practice from "I believe the Catholic God exists, but still use a condom," even if you can logically connect one to the other.
I guess I'm not sure what kind of parameters you are setting up for your definition of "reject."
But to continue in your vein of cheerful pessimism, I can point out that the vast majority of people who "reject" something like a religion will, for the sake of their new belief, re-interpret their previous experiences in such a way as to make them acceptible to their new belief system. So it's entirely possible that there are people who have "rejected the Catholic God," for example, but would never admit it because it would conflict with their new epistemology. So we can't trust them, either.
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quote:So it's entirely possible that there are people who have "rejected the Catholic God," for example, but would never admit it because it would conflict with their new epistemology.
I'm not sure which of those hypothetical epistemologies would still include the existence of the Catholic God. Can you give me an example?
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quote: the sin of not believing “the truth” is punished (by the all-loving deity).
Explain "punished"? The "punishment" you talk about is to keep not believing the truth. Because you choose to.
I honestly thought that the “punishment” I was talking about was obvious from my post (i.e. “being sent to hell” – punishment that incidentally, is irrelevant for me). And as a note, when I used the term “the truth” (note the quotation marks) I was referring to any particular "property of/story about the deity".
A.
PS: dkw, I’m trying to communicate with people that I obviously don’t fully know. Your reaction makes me feel like I don’t belong here. If this is a generalized opinion, maybe I should stop posting.
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But what do you mean by "being sent to Hell"? Hell, in my belief, is the absence of God. Which one can choose or not.
A kid choosing to play in his room is not a punishment; the same as a kid being sent to his room - when he wants to be somewhere else - is. I suggest that "hell" is the former rather than the latter.
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quote:I'm not sure which of those hypothetical epistemologies would still include the existence of the Catholic God. Can you give me an example?
Nope, because that's not the point I was making with that particular example.
As it happens, I gave an example of someone who has rejected God but still believes in him, but you dismissed it. And I, being the shy, retiring, and non-confessional type that I am, have no particular desire to go into further explicit detail about it.
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posted
I've got to confess that I'm fascinated by this. If you don't want to discuss it publicly, would you shoot me an email? I'm interested more than I can possibly express in the worldview of someone who fully believes in a hostile God.
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quote:I'm interested more than I can possibly express in the worldview of someone who fully believes in a hostile God.
Whoa! Yeah, as much as I would love to think that I could excite such ineffable interest in you, we must have crossed some wires somewhere: I didn't mean to say or imply that I thought God was hostile.
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posted
Without going into the Christian side of things, it seems pretty clear to me that the Yahweh described in the Old Testament is highly hostile to anyone who is not a Jew, and not exactly friendly even to the Jews.
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posted
That doesn't mean that folks get to put words in Dante's mouth. "Hostile" was Tom's word.
KoM, you don't get to keep redefining the terms either. I think that you have sufficient indication of the variety of opinion regarding the nature of God. You don't get to pick one aspect (i.e."without going into the Christian thing") and pretend that it is representative.
My opinion of the Yahweh described in the Old Testament is that it is a description of a particular people's relationship with God written from their perspective. It is an important part of scripture for Christians because God choose to become incarnate as one of those people.
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To say the Yahweh of the old testiment in summation is "hostile to anyone who is not a Jew, and not exactly friendly even to the Jews" demonstrates a very hasty generalization and selective use of accounts concerning him.
Though I doubt you really want me to KOM, I would be willing to submit several situations that show Yahweh's loving side, both to Jews and to Gentiles.
If you believe God is the "Embodiment of all that is good, and perfection itself." One might postulate that a "Hostility" towards all that is evil is a neccesary attribute of that state.
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suminonA, I would hate for you to take anything I said as an opinion that you should stop posting here. I don't want you to leave.
I do want you to realize that the theists on this thread don't (all) have the opinions about hell and damnation that you seem to be attributing to us.
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quote:As it happens, I gave an example of someone who has rejected God but still believes in him, but you dismissed it.
In what scenario would this description not produce a hostile Judeo-Christian God (since I'm assuming we're talking about the JC tradition, here)? Are you hypothesizing a God who does not care whether or not you believe? IIRC, Mormon doctrine (for example) specifically states that the above situation is the ONLY condition under which God is hostile.
As I said earlier, a permanent conscious rejection of God is nothing like a temporary "Oh, God, I won't do this because I'm mad at you," or even "while I theoretically believe in God, I'm still going to use birth control because I think it's right and wonder whether the priests are really hearing Him clearly." That you've occasionally gone counter to what you half-heartedly believed was God's will does not mean you've rejected God.
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posted
Tom: I dunno, God could be hostile if you devoted your life to the persecution for others for their beliefs (i.e an Angel issuing a beat down to Alma the younger during his rogue days, and threatening him with destruction if he continued doing as he was, I am not sure if you are familiar with that story.)
Jesus seemed quite hostile to the pharisees and saducees for the intentional blindness and hypocrisy.
He had angry words for Peter when Peter tried to talk him out of sacrificing his life.
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quote:Do you think the only response God is capable of is hostility?
I'm not sure how that logically follows. But I believe Mormon doctrine is in fact fairly clear about the belief that people who knowingly reject God are "cast" into Outer Darkness. They don't jump; they're cast.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Do you think the only response God is capable of is hostility?
I'm not sure how that logically follows. But I believe Mormon doctrine is in fact fairly clear about the belief that people who knowingly reject God are "cast" into Outer Darkness. They don't jump; they're cast.
somebody who posesses such a character as to deserve to be sent there is probably willing to sprint to outer darkness when asked if they had to choose between heaven and hell. For somebody that evil, living with God is worse than living with God, they have a deep hatred for all that God is.
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quote:In what scenario would this description not produce a hostile Judeo-Christian God (since I'm assuming we're talking about the JC tradition, here)?
I honestly have no idea how you are defining "hostile."
quote:That you've occasionally gone counter to what you half-heartedly believed was God's will does not mean you've rejected God.
Well, sure--as everyone has sinned, obviously all believers have, at some point, done something they believe they shouldn't. However, my example said nothing about "occasional" or "half-hearted" belief.
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quote:However, my example said nothing about "occasional" or "half-hearted" belief.
So you were fully and completely confident that God's will was for you to act a certain way, and aware of God's desires, and you consciously acted counter to that will? Your thought process really went "God's watching me do this right now, and God definitely exists and definitely disapproves, but I'm going to do it anyway?"
Even Adam and Eve thought, in their ignorance, that they could hide.
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quote:So you were fully and completely confident that God's will was for you to act a certain way, and aware of God's desires, and you consciously acted counter to that will? Your thought process really went "God's watching me do this right now, and God definitely exists and definitely disapproves, but I'm going to do it anyway?"
I've done that before. Half a dozen examples immediately spring to midn - usually when I wanted to do something quite badly.
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quote:However, my example said nothing about "occasional" or "half-hearted" belief.
So you were fully and completely confident that God's will was for you to act a certain way, and aware of God's desires, and you consciously acted counter to that will? Your thought process really went "God's watching me do this right now, and God definitely exists and definitely disapproves, but I'm going to do it anyway?"
Even Adam and Eve thought, in their ignorance, that they could hide.
Not the best example, there are people who think God told them not to but fully expected them to do so. (ignore debating this topic, just pick a different instance please)
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: That doesn't mean that folks get to put words in Dante's mouth. "Hostile" was Tom's word.
KoM, you don't get to keep redefining the terms either. I think that you have sufficient indication of the variety of opinion regarding the nature of God. You don't get to pick one aspect (i.e."without going into the Christian thing") and pretend that it is representative.
Possibly you misunderstood my intent, which admittedly is easy to do from a hasty before-breakfast post. I meant to suggest, as a point of interest for Tom to consider, that the authors of the Old Testament apparently did believe in a not-very-friendly god.
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quote:I meant to suggest, as a point of interest for Tom to consider, that the authors of the Old Testament apparently did believe in a not-very-friendly god.
Oh, I'm aware of that one. But a God you obey because you're terrified of Him is still a God you don't consciously disobey. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tom, again you are leaping. One is not necessarily "terrified" of a not-very-friendly God. Even if one were "terrified" that may not be the reason one would obey such a God.
And we weren't even talking about a hostile God. That was your construct.
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quote:I meant to suggest, as a point of interest for Tom to consider, that the authors of the Old Testament apparently did believe in a not-very-friendly god.
Oh, I'm aware of that one. But a God you obey because you're terrified of Him is still a God you don't consciously disobey.
True, but the Israelites do disobey their god at many points in the Old Testament. Which, incidentally, suggests to me that either they aren't very bright, or their god isn't that convincing.
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quote:Tom, again you are leaping. One is not necessarily "terrified" of a not-very-friendly God. Even if one were "terrified" that may not be the reason one would obey such a God.
Why would YOU follow a God you don't particularly like or admire, if not fear?
quote:And we weren't even talking about a hostile God. That was your construct.
As described by pretty much every major Christian religion, the Christian God is hostile to those who do not believe, and especially hostile to those who believe but choose not to follow Him.
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quote:IIRC, even Satanists don't actually believe the Christian God exists as described in the Bible; if they believe, they believe He's just one of many. They don't believe they're in active rebellion against an omnipotent, omniscient foe.
There are different kinds of satanists. Laveyan satanists (from Anton LaVey) are actually atheists. They don't believe in a supernatural at all, and they operate under the assumption that Christianity is inherently evil. Therefore anything that opposes Christianity is worthy of praise or devotion. As such they simply define "Satan" as anything that opposes christianity. Satan is a concept, not a divine being.
Other satanists argue that based on the bible, all the death and destruction has been wrought by God, not by the devil. They see Satan as being the good figure, and God is the bad guy. After all, Satan mostly just tries to get people to think for themselves.
I don't know what they feel about who created what, or whether God is omnipotent.
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quote:So you were fully and completely confident that God's will was for you to act a certain way, and aware of God's desires, and you consciously acted counter to that will? Your thought process really went "God's watching me do this right now, and God definitely exists and definitely disapproves, but I'm going to do it anyway?"
posted
Wow. I'm trying to imagine ever making that choice in that situation, and it's completely foreign to me. Assuming I believed in God, and assuming that I believed that God were omniscient, and assuming that I also believed He were benevolent, it's absolutely unthinkable for me that I would knowingly do something contrary to His will, simply because His will would be definitionally better than my own judgement.
I could see doing something automatically, without particularly thinking about it, and only remembering after the fact that God would have disapproved -- but that's something entirely different. Consciously disobeying a deity I believe to be benevolent is something I honestly can't even comprehend. To countermand the will of God on any given issue is a blanket admission that I am wiser than God on that topic; it denies belief in His wisdom.
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posted
Um. Are you seriously claiming that you've never done something you knew was wrong? What, you never sneaked a smoke just to be cool?
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The whole point of being a God is that He would know -- know -- that it was wrong. I overeat now because I don't think about it and because some part of me, deep down, feels like I'll get away with it. If God were to descend and say, "Hey, seriously, Tom, don't have the second hot dog," it'd take a really huge -- and baffling, as far as I'm concerned -- effort of will for me to say "Up yours, God. I want another hot dog."
It's pretty much a whole order of magnitude, isn't it? It's like continuing to drive your car when it's making a funny noise versus trying to drive your car when your mechanic tells you "if you turn the key, your engine will blow up."
The fact that we don't see more of this is actually one of the biggest reasons I have for disbelief. Because if people really believed in God's advice even half as strongly, it'd be a dramatically different planet.
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posted
Then there's the idea of God's forgiveness. We're all sinners, and God doesn't expect perfection, just devotion.
In fact, there are Christians that like Christianity specifically because they feel they can get away with sinning and "backsliding," but then they get to repent and go through the whole "Born again" thing all over again. It's like taking another hit.
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posted
I think there are few people, even among the most devout Christians, who would suggest that their god micro-manages the lives of the faithful to the extent that you suggest here. Indeed, such an assertion would be rather absurd, since it plainly doesn't happen.
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quote:Consciously disobeying a deity I believe to be benevolent is something I honestly can't even comprehend. To countermand the will of God on any given issue is a blanket admission that I am wiser than God on that topic; it denies belief in His wisdom.
Tom, you're just not getting it. You've got to stop intellectualizing. I'm not saying that in those situations I think I'm wiser than God. I'm saying that in those situations, I'm more concerned with achieving my desired outcome than the one I know God wants.
Now, it's true I'm not claiming to have had some kind of temporal theophanic experience. And I'm glad, because while it would probably make it harder to resist God's will in the future, it would also definitely increase my own level of accountability.
quote:Because if people really believed in God's advice even half as strongly, it'd be a dramatically different planet.
Huge oversimplification. Do you know anyone, theist or a-, who fully lives up to his expectations? Frankly, I'm baffled by your continued refusual to recognize that it's possible to know what is wrong and still do it.
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quote:I'm saying that in those situations, I'm more concerned with achieving my desired outcome than the one I know God wants.
And, as I've said, I find that absolutely unthinkable. I can imagine caring about achieving your own outcome without thinking about what God wants, but knowingly doing something in direct opposition to God's desires just seems staggeringly foolish.
quote:Frankly, I'm baffled by your continued refusual to recognize that it's possible to know what is wrong and still do it.
I would argue that it's precisely our lack of real belief in God that makes this possible.
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quote:And, as I've said, I find that absolutely unthinkable. I can imagine caring about achieving your own outcome without thinking about what God wants, but knowingly doing something in direct opposition to God's desires just seems staggeringly foolish.
Well of course it's foolish. I'm not disagreeing with you on that. What I'm saying is that no one--not even intellectualizers like you (and often me)--makes decisions based solely on a dispassionate, ultra-reasonable calculation of potential short- and long-term pros and cons.
And it's not like I'm proud, morally or intellectually, of the times I've consciously gone against God's will. But not to admit it when it's the truth would be monumentally dishonest.
But, yeah, if you find what I have said to be my own experience "completely unthinkable," I'm not sure there's much further fertile ground for discussion.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: suminonA, I would hate for you to take anything I said as an opinion that you should stop posting here. I don't want you to leave.
Ok, I’m still here [btw, thanks kmbboots!]
quote:Originally posted by dkw: I do want you to realize that the theists on this thread don't (all) have the opinions about hell and damnation that you seem to be attributing to us.
I do realize that, and I didn’t try to imply that (any of) the theists on this thread/board have the particular opinion that I presented. Actually, that’s why I’m glad to be here, people here are a lot more open to discussion.
Nevertheless, I wanted to present that particular point, even if only to be refuted by everybody here. You’d be surprised how many (other) people I know who think that I deserve to go to hell (by their definition), and also take that as an argument to convince me of the benevolence of the deity they believe in.
To put it plainly, this is the paradox that I don’t really like about the religion in general, and the one I was brought up with in particular. If I was given the power of decision, and access to information/knowledge, and made a choice, based on what I understand to be good and morale, why would an all-loving deity punish me if I decided that I don’t need to believe in that particular deity (i.e. its existence) in order to be good? Maybe as the title of this thread puts it, “I’m not naturally inclined to believe in a deity”. Does that make me unworthy as a person? Am I inherently flawed? Why wouldn’t a (potentially existing) all-loving deity accept me even if I didn’t (as in “wasn’t able to”) believe in it?
Anyway, this is all rhetorical, I’m not “blaming” anyone here for this paradox, but at least keep in mind that there is at least one person here (i.e. myself) who was presented with it.
--------- As for the last posts above, I think the problem comes when deciding what is the deity’s will? If one cannot see it for oneself, who does one have to listen to? Who is to trust? Who knows really the deity’s will? Of course, these questions are relevant only following the premise of the existence of a willing deity.
quote:And it's not like I'm proud, morally or intellectually, of the times I've consciously gone against God's will.
I think it's the "conscious" bit that gets me. Because while I've unthinkingly done myself and others harm, I've never done so knowingly and can't imagine choosing to do so when I would know, from the mouth of God Himself, that no greater good would come of it.
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quote:Because while I've unthinkingly done myself and others harm, I've never done so knowingly and can't imagine choosing to do so when I would know, from the mouth of God Himself, that no greater good would come of it.
Cynic that I am, I have a hard time believing in someone who has never done something that may be morally questionable or inappropriate ("no greater good would come of it") but does it anyway because it is advantageous/fun/easier/pleasurable.
Of course, I also recognize the possibility that you're just a much, much better man than I.
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quote: As described by pretty much every major Christian religion, the Christian God is hostile to those who do not believe, and especially hostile to those who believe but choose not to follow Him.
The Christian God I believe in loves even those who believe and choose not to follow.
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posted
I think Tom's making a distinction between something that is "a bad idea" and something that causes "harm."
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posted
I think Tom is making a distinction between "knew it was probably a bad idea" and "knew, absolutely and completely, with the authority of God behind it, that it was a bad idea."
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posted
That's a self-cancelling proposition, because he doesn't believe in God according to him, so he would never have been in that position.
WHat about "knew, definitely, that it was a really horrible idea with probable bad consequences". I still can't believe that in 30 years, he's never done something like that. I think everyone has.
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posted
I think there's a distinction between those distinctions, dkw, and I'm not seeing things clearly enough to distinguish which distinction Tom is trying to make -- if indeed he is only trying to make distinct one distinction and not both.
He did state that he has never knowingly caused harm, and can't imagine choosing to cause harm when divine edict states that harm is bad. I've done things that I knew would have bad consequences, but I don't think that's the same thing as causing harm [added: which I have also done]. It depends on how broadly you want to define "harm."
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posted
Tom: I think you have set up a straw man. Countless people every day knowingly make poor choices for instant gratification, etc. Some of those people know that their God will not be pleased with their decisions. I posit that no person is capable of perfectly following their God (unless their God does not expect much). That is the whole reason for forgiveness or mystical rituals to get God's pleasure again.
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