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Author Topic: Funny Da Vinci line
The Pixiest
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Doesn't it say in the bible that Judas was his favorite desciple? His Best Bud? Which is why the betrayal was all the more awful?

(or am I mis-remembering a book I haven't read in 20 years?)

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katharina
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I believe you are remembering references to John as the beloved disciple.
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TomDavidson
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The idea that Judas was Jesus' best friend is a bit of post-Biblical apocrypha. It makes for a better and edgier story, so many people prefer that version.
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The Pixiest
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Ah, I think both you guys are right.

Senile Pix

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Belle
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You know, I don't really think that finding out for certain that Jesus was married on earth would completely shatter my faith, my problem with the claim is that there doesn't really seem to be any real evidence for it.

I see nothing in the Bible that remotely hints that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. I wonder if he were, why he made no provision to care for her after his death like he did for his mother. I wonder why, if he were married to her, his bride is referred to as being the church, and his earthly marriage to her is not mentioned. And, I'm not going to buy in to a hasty generalization that just because the majority of Jews were married, it naturally follows that Christ must have been.

While it would not crush me to believe that Christ was married, I honestly think his mission when he came to earth was not about starting a family, but rather getting about his Father's work - the atonement.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Doesn't it say in the bible that Judas was his favorite desciple? His Best Bud? Which is why the betrayal was all the more awful?

(or am I mis-remembering a book I haven't read in 20 years?)

I think that may have been I, Judas.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Doesn't it say in the bible that Judas was his favorite desciple? His Best Bud? Which is why the betrayal was all the more awful?

(or am I mis-remembering a book I haven't read in 20 years?)

I think that may have been I, Judas.
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The Pixiest
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Lisa: Don't think so =) I've never read that
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Synesthesia
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I kind of think the bible has been altered a few times, but that's just me. It would be nice to get my hands on an unedited version...
But there are a few legends floating around according to Tori Amos from better sources. I just know that movie will be dippy. Hollywood just cannot help making dippy movies.

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pH
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What is the Apocrypha?

And why do Catholics have it in the Bible?

-pH

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Synesthesia
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Probably extra stuff in the bible.
Makes me think of DVD extras, things that were cut out.

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erosomniac
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quote:
What is the Apocrypha?

And why do Catholics have it in the Bible?

The Apocrypha are several sections of the Bible removed for any number of reasons.

I do not know for certain why the Catholic Bible contains some (but not all) of the Apocrypha.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
What is the Apocrypha?

And why do Catholics have it in the Bible?

The Apocrypha are several sections of the Bible removed for any number of reasons.

I do not know for certain why the Catholic Bible contains some (but not all) of the Apocrypha.

The Apocrypha are books that didn't make it into the canon. That doesn't mean that they were in the canon and then removed, as you're implying.

There are also books known as Pseudepigrapha, which, as their name suggests, are books that were purportedly written by biblical characters, but obviously were not.

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pooka
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There are two accounts of a woman giving Jesus ointment in the Gospels. In one story it is Mary Magdalene, in the other it is the adultress.

Not that I am more or less comfortable with Jesus being married to an adulteress if he was married. His forgiveness is absolute.

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Dante
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quote:
I believe you are remembering references to John as the beloved disciple.
Not exactly. The "disciple whom Jesus loved" only shows up in the fourth gospel but is never named. Tradition makes the connection between John and beloved disciple.
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erosomniac
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quote:
The Apocrypha are books that didn't make it into the canon. That doesn't mean that they were in the canon and then removed, as you're implying.
You're right, although my description certainly does apply to several of the books.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by pooka:
There are two accounts of a woman giving Jesus ointment in the Gospels. In one story it is Mary Magdalene, in the other it is the adultress.

Not that I am more or less comfortable with Jesus being married to an adulteress if he was married. His forgiveness is absolute.

Three. In two accounts (Matthew and Mark)it is an unnamed woman; in the third (John) is is Mary of Bethany (Martha's sister).
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
The Apocrypha are books that didn't make it into the canon. That doesn't mean that they were in the canon and then removed, as you're implying.
You're right, although my description certainly does apply to several of the books.
Depends on which canon you refer to. I don't think there were any books that were in the Jewish canon and then later removed.
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Bean Counter
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Why should Jesus need to provide for Mary Magdelene? It was she who financed his ministry so it was quite the other way around. She and her Bethany group were substantial women. The one fact I see missing in all the evidence is the conection to John the Baptist, with the John Gesture being very important to the line of supposition and appearing in the Last Supper in a self portrait of Di Vinci.

BC

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Olivet
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Meh. There are many reasons why planning on dying shortly after marrying someone is a raw deal for the someone in question, besides money. I mean, not that I care, really. If she was cool with it, then whatever. There are a lot of women in the world whose choices seem kind of dumb to me (only in that I don't see the appeal.)

Like these people.

From my perspective, personally, I would not want to be married to anyone with a mission that was more important to them than me and our family. I realize that is not a veiw shared by everyone, obviously. Like that guy who climbed MT Everest (and died there) when his wife was seven months pregnant? I'd be totally kicking myself for hooking up with THAT guy, but his wife probably loved him, in part, because he was a risk-taker and likely to let his passion for adventure superceed his responsibility.

So, while I wouldn't want to marry a man I knew was going to sacrifice himself for all mankind in a couple of years, It doesn't bother me that someone else might.

I'm kind of speaking to this hypothetically, because I find it more likely that Jesus was just a really great man than a deity, but if he was a deity and began a family knowing he was going to abandon them... that would suck. [Frown]

Severely edited for clarity.

[ May 20, 2006, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Olivet ]

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pH
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When my old youth pastor proposed to his (now) wife, he asked her first if it was okay that he would always love God more than her, and that God would always take priority over her in his life.

-pH

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ElJay
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I would have responded that of course God should always take priority, but that doesn't mean that his job would always take priority.

Who am I kidding? I wouldn't have been dating the guy. It sounds like a brilliant way to make sure that he's always in control of the important decisions in the relationship, because God is leading him and God is more important. I could just be cynical and he could be a wonderful man and they could have a wonderful relationsip. But that sounds like a huge old red flag to me. Not saying that God shouldn't be the most important thing in someone's life. Just saying there seems to me a difference between saying that and explicitly saying God will always take priority over you.

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Olivet
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This is the big reason it sucked dating the pre-seminary boys. If a guy had asked me that question... I don't know what I'd say, and at one time I would probably have said "okay." But, being the person that I am now, the way it plays out in my imagination seems to involve me saying, "Kneel down and kiss my boot" at some point. [Evil Laugh]
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MightyCow
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That would be cool with me if my girlfriend said that God would always come before me, as long as she's cool with my computer always coming before her. Come on, fair is fair. If one person gets a "higher power", the other person does too.

Maybe I'll switch from computer to cake. So many choices.

Maybe that's why Jesus and Mary weren't married. Jesus said, "I'm God baby." and Mary said, "I love Cake!"

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ctm
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
While it would not crush me to believe that Christ was married, I honestly think his mission when he came to earth was not about starting a family, but rather getting about his Father's work - the atonement.

This is what I think too.
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dkw
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While it wouldn't crush me to find out that Jesus was married, I'm highly suspicious of "research" that traces his decendents to a particular royal family who happened to be funding the research.
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raventh1
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Olivet: Judas sold him for a reason. I believe the is a book of the Gospel of Judas, which I haven't had time to look at. In this book they talk about how Judas was doing Jesus a favor by selling him and getting him on with his 'eternal' quest.

I would think that if Love is such a high priority for Jesus as it seems, that he would have had a wife, and children. This idea has never bothered me.

ctm: Did Jesus go around letting everyone know what his work was? This also may bring other light to the words "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

I find that as was said in the movie, Anything that allows you to gain more faith is a good thing. Jesus tried to teach in many ways for many different people.

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Amanecer
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raventh1, I believe that the Gospel of Judas is a gnostic text. It is very much not in line with mainstream Christianity.

quote:
Perhaps it is not only the married thing. Perhaps it is the assertion that instead of dying on the cross and atoning for all mankind, Jesus ran off to France.
I only saw the movie, so maybe what you're saying came from the book, but in the film it says that Mary was pregnant at the crucifixion and that after Jesus died she went to France.
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pH
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quote:
It sounds like a brilliant way to make sure that he's always in control of the important decisions in the relationship, because God is leading him and God is more important.
Yeah...and he's the minister, so even if she says that God is leading him somewhere, his God-feelings take precedence.

-pH

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Olivet
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Raventh1: The who what now? I never said anything about Judas. That may have been Pixiest you were talking to. (I still think it's a selfish bastard who'd start a family knowing he was going to crap out on them, not that I care whether or not any figure of religious significance (to whoever) did so.)
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raventh1
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Olivet: I apparently didn't read the second page... Sorry for the confusion.

I was replying to this:
"Gee, Mary, I love you and all, but I've gotta go die for the sins of all mankind, leaving you to fend for yourself. Sorry."

Amanecer: The Da Vinci Code isn't gospel either; I'm merely suggesting how things could work.

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katharina
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I wouldn't mind someone loving and wishing to obey God before me, but my religion says that his primary method of following God would be by being a great husband and father, so that works out for everyone.
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dkw
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Right. It's him saying, "now you know I'm always going to put God before you, right?" that's a possible warning sign. (Depending on how he said it, context of the discussion, etc.) Possibly he's a sincere, devout guy who just wants to make sure she knows that he can't love her more than God. But possibly he has an ego problem and is going to confuse his own plans with God and use the God card to trump her opinions. (Kind of like the "God told me to marry you," which I think you have some experience with, neh? [Wink] )
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katharina
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quote:
But possibly he has an ego problem and is going to confuse his own plans with God and use the God card to trump her opinions. (Kind of like the "God told me to marry you," which I think you have some experience with, neh? )
I've had experience with ALL of that. It seems like there's nothing so good that someone won't try to use it in a crappy way.

I think that Jesus, however, wouldn't do that. I think the infinite capacity for patience, strength, and love would provide for compensation. If he had that divine calling and was also married, I'm sure that he would be equal to all that is asked of him.

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Scott R
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In thinking this over, briefly-- wouldn't Jesus' marriage been arranged?

That throws a whole new spin on things. Would there have been a courtship in this case? If Joseph was still around, what would have been his role? What about Mary's?

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Artemisia Tridentata
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quote:
You know, I don't really think that finding out for certain that Jesus was married on earth would completely shatter my faith, my problem with the claim is that there doesn't really seem to be any real evidence for it.

I know it seems like kind of a stretch, but the two bible stories often used by persons who do beleave in a married Christ, are:
The Marrage at Cana (John 2:5). Mary the mother of Jesus was the hostess, as indicated by her involvement with problem of the wine . Since she was the hostess, the wedding was for her son. And Jesus, as the oldest son, was therefore the bridegroom.
And, At the tomb of the resurection, Mary Magdline was the first person to whom he appeared (John 20:14) showing her to be the most important (or most loved) of his mortal aquaintences.
Of course this would then mean two wives. Take that you traditionalists.

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kmbboots
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Although there is some difference if we assume Jesus knew what was going to happen (and the Garden of Gethsemene cast some doubt), I don't think that marrying someone with a higher calling is all that unusual. Soldiers, for example, firemen, astronauts, certain civil rights leaders, all of these people know that they are at least risking the possibility of abandoning their families by dying.
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Scott R
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AT- The logic you used isn't necessarily complete; Mother Mary may have had other children getting married, for example-- not just Jesus. Of course, this explanaton bites into another early Christian tenet that is under dispute: the Ever-Virginity of Mary.

quote:
At the tomb of the resurection, Mary Magdline was the first person to whom he appeared (John 20:14) showing her to be the most important (or most loved) of his mortal aquaintences.
[Smile] Still isn't indicative of a marriage. Even if you believe the logic (which I'm not convinced of).
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Olivet
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I didn't say it was unusual, just that I would personally find it disagreeable. Like the guy who died on Mt. Everest before his child was even born? *wince* I don't like the idea of being in a committed relationship with a risk-taker (or the exterem physical variety). I take enough risks on my own, and (until I had children to care for) was very much okay with risking my life. I even thought it would be cool to be martyred.

But, when I heard the song "Major Tom" (or whatever it's called) as a child, I immediately thought "What the heck was he doing out there if he really loved someone?" and marked astronauts off my list.

I have no investment in the historical/religious figure of Jesus, other than thinking that his life probably was quite different than most people who worship him might assume, separated as they are by time and somewhat obtuse writings. So it's an interesting hypothetical.

I remember hearing a story about Simon Bolivar in which he said he'd never have come to South America if his wife had lived. With her, he would have been more than happy to raise a family and quietly retire to the countryside. So, if his wife had lived, would South America have been a very different place? Almost certainly. Sometimes personal unhappiness is a tool of god (or the universe or whatever) in people's lives to put them where they need to be, to do what they need to do.

So, really, I find the (possibly factual, possibly not) choices made by Jesus, much more admirable and moving if he really didn't know what was coming or wasn't, himself, a deity in any way.

*shrug* Don't be mad at me, please. I'm not saying this out of an emotional investment in any of it, and I'm not trying to diss anyone's beliefs. I was only trying to explain my personal reaction to the idea.

The only orthodoxy I try to keep is that of respecting other people's deeply held beliefs, so I definitely did not mean anything I have said to offend anyone.

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pH
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
Right. It's him saying, "now you know I'm always going to put God before you, right?" that's a possible warning sign. (Depending on how he said it, context of the discussion, etc.) Possibly he's a sincere, devout guy who just wants to make sure she knows that he can't love her more than God. But possibly he has an ego problem and is going to confuse his own plans with God and use the God card to trump her opinions. (Kind of like the "God told me to marry you," which I think you have some experience with, neh? [Wink] )

IIRC (this was probably 7+ years ago), he asked her in front of the youth group one Sunday. Or he announced that he had asked her in front of the youth group. Either way, I clearly remember that the first thing he did in said proposal was pretty much say, "You know God's always going to come before you, right?"

-pH

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kmbboots
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Olivet honey, never mad at you! Your personal reaction is perfectly valid. Mine would be different - but that is likely because I am a hopeless romantic, have the luxury of it being pure speculation, and am conditioned to the idea of great love that ends in tragedy and death. I sing Irish music for heaven's sake!
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kmbboots
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Slight derail: I loved the way our parish addressed the DVC controversy. The only thing said was in the Prayer of the Faithful. Without "naming any names" we thanked God for art and imagination and the wisdom to recognize it.
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Ozymandias
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I'm not sure if this has already been said- I only read about half of the other posts- but this is why I believe Jesus was married and had a child:

Back then, it was the norm for men to be married. If not, they we're seen as a social outcast. There is evidence that Mary was a somewhat wealthy, stand-alone woman- enough so that there has been question that she was a widow. If Jesus was an outcast, he probably would have had an extremely difficult time getting that many followers, let alone a respected wealthy woman in the amount of time the Bible says he did.

Also, the Catholic Church cleared Mary's name of being a whore.

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Scott R
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Jesus WAS an outcast, at least in his own city:

quote:
St. Matthew Ch. 13:

54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Notice the lack of the mention of a wife, though they mention everyone else in his family...

I'd wager that Jesus' ideas on publicans and Samaritans garnered more critiscism than his marital state.

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