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Author Topic: Valedictorian's speech cut short by school district because of reference to God
MightyCow
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Everyone in my HS and college graduating classes were required to attend the graduation ceremony. The Baccalaureate, which had a religious angle, was not required, because the school doesn't push religion on its students. Its really that simple.
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BaoQingTian
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Protest the caps and gowns as well, which the students are forced to wear. They have their roots in religion. I say tanktops, shorts, and flip flops for all!
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Rakeesh
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Required, or else what?

You mean to tell me your high school would have denied you your diploma had you not attended the ceremony?

Seems very unlikely given the number of people who do receive it without, you know, going to the graduation ceremony. It's really that simple.

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Dagonee
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Yeah, if one of the justifications for the kill switch is inadequacy of available sanctions for the speaker saying something wrong, I don't see how anyone can be forced to attend graduation.
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MrSquicky
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I'm not sure. Are people suggesting that all schools everywhere have the exact same policies? Because, while I think that that idea is obviously false, I don't see how some of these comments make sense otherwise.

My high school required graduation attendence. To be honest, I don't know what the consequences were, but we were told that we had to go.

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Dagonee
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Being told you have to attend and being required to attend are two different things entirely.
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MrSquicky
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I'd be interested to know why.
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Dagonee
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Only people with the power to enforce - that is, to issue meaningful sanctions for no compliance - can requires you to do so.

I can say, "Squicky, you have to vote for McCain next election."

I'm certainly not requiring you to do so.

Basic concept, really.

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rivka
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So if, say, the principal said, "All seniors must attend graduation," but did not specify potential consequences, what would that be?
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MrSquicky
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Yeah, see they have the power to do stuff to me if I don't comply. I don't remember what the actual consequences laid out were, but there were consequences.
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ketchupqueen
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I was told I had to participate in my graduation. I didn't. Nothing bad happened...
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Dagonee
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That would be an order to attend. It might nor might not ripen into a requirement.

Really, the word "require" only makes sense attached to something akin to "in order to..."

I was required to complete 86 credit hours in order to graduate law school.

The obvious implicit "in order to" phrase to attach to "you are required to attend graduation" is "in order to graduate."

Less obvious phrases would be "in order to graduate without doing X." If X is trivial, I wouldn't call graduation attendance a requirement.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
I was told I had to participate in my graduation. I didn't. Nothing bad happened...

*Jaws theme plays*

Until now!

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Dagonee
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quote:
Yeah, see they have the power to do stuff to me if I don't comply. I don't remember what the actual consequences laid out were, but there were consequences.
Which suggests that, at your school, there were alternative sanctions to the kill switch.
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MrSquicky
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Yes, however, many schools do not have the same policies.
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Dagonee
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Yes, and at those schools graduation is not required.

I've simply stated that two of the strongest arguments in favor of the kill switch policy - the requirement to be there and the lack of alternative sanction - don't both exist at a single school.

I honestly can't tell if you didn't honestly see that when you made your little comment about this not making sense.

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MrSquicky
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I don't see how the requirement to be there is one of the strongest arguments. I don't see how it's really an argument at all, to be honest.

How does attendence not being mandatory change the situation such that things like what this girl did aren't things they should protect against?

[ June 26, 2006, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]

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Dagonee
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Ask the people who made the argument.
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Glenn Arnold
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Today's Mallard Fillmore referenced this case. As usual, Tinsley treated it dishonestly.
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Jay
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http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/fun/mallard.asp

So.... tell me how this isn't true? It's 100% right on the mark.

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Scott R
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No, it isn't.

I don't know Tinsley's reputation, so I can't comment on whether this sort of thing is "usual" or not. However, the comic leaves out a lot of context that I think is important to the proper understanding of this case.

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kmbboots
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I am unaware of a case where the ACLU defended a student who used a school supported event to take the Lord's name in vain. Do you have references? Thanks.
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Jay
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ďBrittany McComb, Valedictorian of Foothill High School in Nevada had her microphone cut off during her graduation speech for thanking ďJesus ChristĒÖ.Ē

ďOf course if sheíd simple taken her Lordís name in vainÖ.
(picture of Britney ď@#ing !!***ERS!!Ē)
Ö. The A.C.L.U. would now be defending her instead of her schoolÖĒ

What is inaccurate? Her mic was cut off. It was cut off when she thanked Jesus.
If she would have taken the Lordís name in vain they would have come and said it was her civic right to do so. Itís how the ACLU works. You might not find it funny, but you really canít honestly say itís inaccurate in the least. Oh, and by the way, just you saying its dishonest doesnít make it so.

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TomDavidson
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Do you honestly want me to list the distortions, Jay, or were you speaking hypothetically?
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erosomniac
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quote:
What is inaccurate? Her mic was cut off. It was cut off when she thanked Jesus.
If she would have taken the Lordís name in vain they would have come and said it was her civic right to do so. Itís how the ACLU works. You might not find it funny, but you really canít honestly say itís inaccurate in the least. Oh, and by the way, just you saying its dishonest doesnít make it so.

How does your saying it's accurate make it any more so?
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Scott R
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quote:
You might not find it funny, but you really canít honestly say itís inaccurate in the least. Oh, and by the way, just you saying its dishonest doesnít make it so.
Who are you talking to, Jay?

quote:
If she would have taken the Lordís name in vain they would have come and said it was her civic right to do so. Itís how the ACLU works.
Saying so don't make it so. [Smile]

:echoes kmbboots:

My problem with the cartoon is that it leaves out CONTEXT. Things like the fact that Brittany knew the rules beforehand. Things like the fact that she didn't just thank Jesus Christ, but was proselyting from the stand to a (more or less) captive audience.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
If she would have taken the Lordís name in vain they would have come and said it was her civic right to do so. Itís how the ACLU works. You might not find it funny, but you really canít honestly say itís inaccurate in the least. Oh, and by the way, just you saying its dishonest doesnít make it so.

References, please? Thanks. I don't know what case you are talking about here.
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Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Do you honestly want me to list the distortions, Jay, or were you speaking hypothetically?

Yes please.

Go for it.

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Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
What is inaccurate? Her mic was cut off. It was cut off when she thanked Jesus.
If she would have taken the Lordís name in vain they would have come and said it was her civic right to do so. Itís how the ACLU works. You might not find it funny, but you really canít honestly say itís inaccurate in the least. Oh, and by the way, just you saying its dishonest doesnít make it so.

How does your saying it's accurate make it any more so?
Well, first off I list some facts. All the other side is doing is saying so.

Go figure.

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kmbboots
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Jay? References? Thanks.
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TomDavidson
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1) Her microphone was not cut off for talking about God. It was cut off for deviating from her pre-approved comments.

2) Had curse words not been in her pre-approved script, and had she deviated from that script, the ACLU would most likely have declined to support her.

3) The ACLU might well have chosen to defend her had she sued over requiring a pre-approved script; they've done such things in the past. To my knowledge, though, such suits generally lose.

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erosomniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
What is inaccurate? Her mic was cut off. It was cut off when she thanked Jesus.
If she would have taken the Lordís name in vain they would have come and said it was her civic right to do so. Itís how the ACLU works. You might not find it funny, but you really canít honestly say itís inaccurate in the least. Oh, and by the way, just you saying its dishonest doesnít make it so.

How does your saying it's accurate make it any more so?
Well, first off I list some facts. All the other side is doing is saying so.

Go figure.

Please indicate a single referenced fact in either of your posts.
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Glenn Arnold
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Tinsley basically labels anything he doesn't like as "liberal." He revels in drawing demeaning caricatures of liberals, but often the point he's making could just as easily be leveled at stupid conservatives, as stupid liberals.

He's got a big grudge against the expensive products that public schools sell for fundraising, but fails to mention that church groups, boy Scouts, private schools and others also use the same expensive fundraisers. He claims that fundraising is a liberal plot of some kind, but misses the fact that the fundraising products are a corporate product. Plus the fact that conservatives prefer that school taxes stay low, which makes fundraising necessary.

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Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
If she would have taken the Lordís name in vain they would have come and said it was her civic right to do so. Itís how the ACLU works. You might not find it funny, but you really canít honestly say itís inaccurate in the least. Oh, and by the way, just you saying its dishonest doesnít make it so.

References, please? Thanks. I don't know what case you are talking about here.
Hereís some of the evil ACLU cases:
http://www.stoptheaclu.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=1&id=15&Itemid=2
You can find all kinds of interesting stuff about them all the time on Google:
http://dianedew.com/aclu.htm
This one is pretty funny too:
http://www.aclusux.com/

Sure you might be able to find a case where they get it right once in a blue moon. Sort of like a blind squirrel finding a nut thoughÖ

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kmbboots
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None of those sites seem to reference a case where the ACLU defended a student for wanting to use a school sponsored event to use the Lord's name in vain. Maybe I am just missing it, though. Could you be more specific? Thanks.
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Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
1) Her microphone was not cut off for talking about God. It was cut off for deviating from her pre-approved comments.

2) Had curse words not been in her pre-approved script, and had she deviated from that script, the ACLU would most likely have declined to support her.

3) The ACLU might well have chosen to defend her had she sued over requiring a pre-approved script; they've done such things in the past. To my knowledge, though, such suits generally lose.

1. Because her comments involved thanking Jesus which she did not feel like was appropriate for them to edit out. I agree.

2. Who said anything about curse words? You donít have to cuss to take the Lordís name in vain.

3. Yeah, right. The ACLU defend a Christian. Ha. That would be like a liberal trying to stop an abortion.

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Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
None of those sites seem to reference a case where the ACLU defended a student for wanting to use a school sponsored event to use the Lord's name in vain. Maybe I am just missing it, though. Could you be more specific? Thanks.

Oh goodness graciousÖ. Itís just a dang analogy. The ACLU loves antichristian cases is the point.
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Scott R
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The bias on those sites disrupts my ability to give their information the benefit of the doubt.
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Glenn Arnold
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In fact, Brittany McComb was attempting to use the Lord's name in vain - a vain attempt to prosyletize. Is the ACLU on her side?
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Jay
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quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay:
quote:
Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:
What is inaccurate? Her mic was cut off. It was cut off when she thanked Jesus.
If she would have taken the Lordís name in vain they would have come and said it was her civic right to do so. Itís how the ACLU works. You might not find it funny, but you really canít honestly say itís inaccurate in the least. Oh, and by the way, just you saying its dishonest doesnít make it so.

How does your saying it's accurate make it any more so?
Well, first off I list some facts. All the other side is doing is saying so.

Go figure.

Please indicate a single referenced fact in either of your posts.
FACT #1: Her mic was cut off.
FACT #2: It was cut off when she thanked Jesus. (Yes Tom, this was off her the edited approved script, but this was when it was cut)

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kmbboots
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quote:
Oh goodness graciousÖ. Itís just a dang analogy. The ACLU loves antichristian cases is the point.


Like these?

ACLU of Rhode Island Files Appeal on Behalf of Christian Prisoner Barred from Preaching at Religious Services

http://www.aclu.org/religion/frb/23445prs20060112.html

ACLU of New Jersey Defends Second-Grader's Right to Sing Religious Song (6/5/2006)


http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/25799prs20060605.html


ACLU of Georgia and Baptist Church File Religious Discrimination Lawsuit (4/19/2006)


http://www.aclu.org/religion/discrim/25518prs20060419.html

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MrSquicky
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That's hardly fair, boots. You're using reality to refute Jay's fantasy world. Next you'll be shooting down passing Intelligent Design as science just because it isn't or criticizing President Bush's plan to provide for our energy needs using unicorns.

[ July 10, 2006, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]

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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
3. Yeah, right. The ACLU defend a Christian. Ha. That would be like a liberal trying to stop an abortion.
I think you'd better look back at the case of the microphone at the football game in Texas. The plaintiffs were a Mormon and a Catholic.
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TomDavidson
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quote:

1. Because her comments involved thanking Jesus which she did not feel like was appropriate for them to edit out. I agree.

Do you have any evidence that the school would not have cut off any other student who deviated from her prepared remarks? It sounds like your complaint is that they were not prepared to permit her to deliver a sermon to her class.

quote:

2. Who said anything about curse words? You donít have to cuss to take the Lordís name in vain.

The comic specifically uses curse symbols. In fact, if you examine the visible characters in the comic, there's no way you could insert the Lord's name into the characters standing for vulgarity in any semi-grammatical way. This is however irrelevant to the main point: that the ACLU would be unlikely to defend someone who deviated from their prepared script, except insofar as the ACLU might disapprove of prepared scripts at all.

quote:

3. Yeah, right. The ACLU defend a Christian. Ha. That would be like a liberal trying to stop an abortion.

The majority of cases addressed by the ACLU involve Christians. It is not an anti-Christian organization, except insofar as Christianity is the religion most likely to be accidentally and unconstitutionally legislated by our institutions.
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Stasia
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay:

3. Yeah, right. The ACLU defend a Christian. Ha. That would be like a liberal trying to stop an abortion.

Not to be contrary, but the ACLU does defend religious liberty (including but not limited to Christian expression). Blurbs from Las Vegas cases where Christian expression was defened by the ACLU:

"November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school."

"November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas."

from the website:
http://www.aclu.org/religion/tencomm/16254res20050302.html

edit: oops too slow! several people got there before me....

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kmbboots
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See, Jay, how easy it is to cite actual cases! Go ahead!
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Jay
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Like I said. Theyíll get one right once in a while. But the vast number of cases are antichristian.

How about this with ACLU Against Free Speech For Pro-Life Protesters:
http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/07/15/selective-civil-rights/

Oh geeÖ just what we need:
ACLU Policy To Legalize Child Porn Distribution
http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/07/17/aclu-policy-to-legalize-child-porn-distribution/

Gotta love this list:
http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2006/02/09/stop-the-aclus-one-year-blogiversary-blogburst-top-ten-myths-about-the-aclu/

Great site:
http://stoptheaclu.com/

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kmbboots
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Jay, we get that you love the Stop the ACLU web site. You might want to branch out a bit. Again, I'm asking you to site a case where the ACLU defended someone's right to use a school event to use the Lord's name in vain - as your original post suggested. I have listed a couple where the ACUL defended religious speech. So has Stasia. Come up with some actual facts.
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kmbboots
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Jay, what you don't seem to understand is that the ACLU is not against religion; it is against the government controlling religion. Surely, you don't have a problem with that, so you?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
But the vast number of cases are antichristian.
Give us some evidence on this one, please? When you say "vast number," are you comparing the number of cases each year which are "anti-Christian" to those which aren't even remotely related to religion, or those which are "pro-Christian" in some way?
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