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This was included in the Manhigut Yehudit newsletter that I received by e-mail today. Manhigut (the name means "Jewish Leadership") is an organization in Israel which has as one of its slogans: "Turning the State of the Jews into a Jewish State."
quote:Is There Any Way to Stop the Madness?
"So what is your solution?" a Leftist once asked me.
"I don't have a solution," I answered.
"So what do you want?"
"I don't have a solution to your problem, but I do have a solution to my problem."
Our entire country knowingly marches toward its own destruction because it has decided that its problem is that it has no place among the nations (as Binyamin Netanyahu named his book, "A Place Among the Nations"). A Jewish country cannot exist in the Land of Israel if it is estranged from its past, its identity and its destiny. We do not have a place among the nations. We do have a place apart from the nations. Our problem is not how to become like the nations. Our problem is how to be Jews who fulfill their destiny -- to perfect the world in the kingdom of Heaven -- in the Land of Israel.
"For me," said authoress Dorit Roynyan in an interview to Israel TV a year after the Oslo Accords were signed, "Oslo means forgetting that I am Jewish."
So if your problem is peace and security -- in other words, "Give me some peace and quiet and let me forget the Jewish hump on my back," I have no solution for your problem. You will become more and more enmeshed in trouble and reel ever closer to destruction. Every time you attempt to run away, reality -- a.k.a. G-d -- will force you back to yourself. You will then vent your anger and frustration on your brothers who have remained faithful to their destiny -- the settlers.
I have no solutions for the imaginary world that you have created so that you can fulfill your dream of assimilation. You have created a virtual reality -- one that is not synchronized with G-d. It can't work and it won't work, and I can't help you. Until you face reality as the Creator has defined it, the Kassams will fall and the collapse will continue.
But I do have a solution for my problem. I have a way to fulfill my dream. I have a way to advance toward a completely different goal. My destiny dictates a solid solution to our current situation.
My goal and destiny is to perfect the world in the kingdom of Heaven. I strive to create a state in the Land of Israel (that includes Gaza), an exemplary Jewish society that illuminates the world with its morality and G-dly conduct. As soon as we re-set our moral coordinates, as soon as we restore our sense of justice, as soon as it is clear to us who the good and bad guys are in this story (when we know, we'll easily be able to explain ourselves to the world), everything will be simple.
We won't need major military offensives, we will not need targeted killings and we will not need fences. All we will need is some perseverance and everything will work out. When we return to our appropriate place and proportions, our enemies will also return to their appropriate place and proportions. The question is not what we will do with them, but what we will do with ourselves.
Only Jewish leadership for Israel can provide the answer. Because only Jewish Leadership asks the right question.
quote: I strive to create a state in the Land of Israel (that includes Gaza), an exemplary Jewish society that illuminates the world with its morality and G-dly conduct. As soon as we re-set our moral coordinates, as soon as we restore our sense of justice, as soon as it is clear to us who the good and bad guys are in this story (when we know, we'll easily be able to explain ourselves to the world), everything will be simple.
We won't need major military offensives, we will not need targeted killings and we will not need fences. All we will need is some perseverance and everything will work out. When we return to our appropriate place and proportions, our enemies will also return to their appropriate place and proportions.
And then we can all have milk and cookies, and ride off into the future on our pretty ponies!
Just a trifle idealistic. Was this written before or after Israel gave up Gaza?
edit: what I mean to say is, does the author really believe that Palestinians will give back Gaza, just because Israel becomes more moral in some undefined way? I don't get it.
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I Believe in the right of my people, the Celts, to occupy large amounts of land not given to them by international agreement either! We will be invading Israel soon, I hope that is okay.
Alright, I admit that was unfair. The actual history of Israel would be to say that they took what they were suposed to share as their own and then proceeded to invade neighboring territories.
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Morbo, it was written this past week. And no, it's not a trifle idealistic; it's extremely idealistic.
It's depressing to hear the term "idealistic" used to mean "unrealistic". Idealism means holding fast to an ideal and working to achieve that ideal. You won't always succeed, but it's a hard fact that you won't achieve it if you don't hold fast to it.
Playing realpolitik hasn't worked. And it never will for Israel. We're not supposed to be like every other country.
This is a link to Manhigut Yehudit's "Jewish Road Map". That's what needs to be implemented. Not more of the same.
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quote:Originally posted by Morbo: edit: what I mean to say is, does the author really believe that Palestinians will give back Gaza, just because Israel becomes more moral in some undefined way? I don't get it.
I think his point is that once we stop worrying so much about what the rest of the world will say, we'll simply repatriate them to Arab countries and move back onto our own land.
Edit: It's fascinating, really. I'm reading a book that takes place during the late '50s or early '60s, and the same nonsense was going on about the Cold War. The Soviets were open and above-board about wanting to conquer the whole world, but people of a certain bent refused to hear it. They demanded one concession after another, and called anyone who wanted to stand firm against Soviet aggression a "warmonger".
If you'd told any of these folks during the '70s or '80s that standing firm was exactly what was needed, and that the Soviet Union would break apart without a war, they would have thought you were crazy.
People went absolutely berserk when President Reagan came right out and called the Soviets an "evil empire". But that's what they were. And most of the hysteria came from the fact that people didn't want to acknowledge it, and were terrified that saying it would get the Soviets riled.
When the situation in the Middle East is resolve, I suspect it'll be in a way that would surprise the hell out of people right now, just as the end of the Cold War was surprising.
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"We're not supposed to be like every other country." Yes, you bloody well are. All countries are bound by the same rules, and most countries break them. Israel is not held to a diferent standard than Sweden or the Sudan. In terms of meeting this standard, it falls between those two countries but the fact that Israel is mostly Jewish, Sweden mostly Lutheren, the Suden mostly Muslim, or Bhutan mostly Budhist is of little concern to me. The rights of a Muslim child or a Muslim woman are no different from the rights of a Hindu, a Sikh, a Jain or a Jew.
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Lisa, why don't we all stop worrying about what others "think" and do whatever we please. How liberating to know that theft and murder arn't wrong, just unpopular.
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edit: what I mean to say is, does the author really believe that Palestinians will give back Gaza, just because Israel becomes more moral in some undefined way? I don't get it.
I read a story recently, though I honestly couldn't tell you how true it is.
Basically it involved this big name Palestinean terrorist sitting in Israeli prison. He was truly tired of it all, he went so far to tell all of his comrades that Israel will never be defeated.
Then Passover comes along. This prisoner witnesses one of the guards eating pita bread, and asks him why he can do such a thing when his religion forbids it for the holiday. The guard said something about not feeling it necessary to follow rules set by his ancestors thousands of years ago.
The prisoner again goes back to his comrades and tell them to forget what he said. That these people don't really take their covenant seriously, and if the Palestineans stick to their faith they shall prevail.
I'm probably off a bit on the wording, but I do think that it shows how the increase in secular Jews in Israel might just give the Palestinean terrorists more hope.
[ June 30, 2006, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: "We're not supposed to be like every other country." Yes, you bloody well are.
No, Pelagius, we bloody well are not. And despite what you wrote further on, I'm not talking about the rules you are. In fact, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than those rules, and always have. I'm referring to our internal issues.
Repatriating the Arabs currently living in occupied Jewish lands to Arab lands is not an infringement of anyone's rights. On the contrary; it is the righting of a current wrong.
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Um... while there are a lot of other things I could comment on, the whole "repatriate them to Arab countries" that they were there in the first place. They weren't. From m-w.com
quote: Main Entry: re·pa·tri·ate Pronunciation: (")rE-'pA-trE-"At, -'pa- Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing Etymology: Late Latin repatriatus, past participle of repatriare to go back to one's country -- more at REPAIR : to restore or return to the country of origin, allegiance, or citizenship
None of the above apply to Palestinians with regards to other Arab countries.
Plus who says they other Arab countries will take them? None of the countries bordering Israel let the Palestinians assimilate in their country before, why would they do it now?
AJ
btw, I thought the article was actually restating Rabbi Hillel...
quote: What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary. Go and learn it. Hillel, Talmud, Shabbath 31a
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Well, if you want to have different rules from everyone else, splendid. We can always stop subsidising you, and watch that nice little military machine crumble into dust. On sheer size, Israel can support about as much army as Sweden. Let's see you hold off the Egyptians without outside support.
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Um... while there are a lot of other things I could comment on, the whole "repatriate them to Arab countries" that they were there in the first place. They weren't. From m-w.com
quote: Main Entry: re·pa·tri·ate Pronunciation: (")rE-'pA-trE-"At, -'pa- Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing Etymology: Late Latin repatriatus, past participle of repatriare to go back to one's country -- more at REPAIR : to restore or return to the country of origin, allegiance, or citizenship
None of the above apply to Palestinians with regards to other Arab countries.
Sure it does. Jordan is more than 3/4 of Palestine. And their occupation of Israel, even if it started 13 centuries ago (not that many of the current self-identified Palestinians have been there nearly that long), was never legal.
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Plus who says they other Arab countries will take them? None of the countries bordering Israel let the Palestinians assimilate in their country before, why would they do it now?
For the same reason that Israel exists. The Arab countries would prefer that not to be the case either, but it is. And they live with it.
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: btw, I thought the article was actually restating Rabbi Hillel...
quote: What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary. Go and learn it. Hillel, Talmud, Shabbath 31a
With respect, Rabbi Hillel was Hillel the Elder's g'g'etc'grandson. The above was stated by Hillel the Elder, who was never called "Rabbi Hillel". Also, "all the rest is commentary" is a poor (albeit common) translation. Better would be "the rest is the explanation". Lastly, "neighbor" is definitely a bad translation. The word is "chaver", or "friend" or "comrade". It certainly does not include those who would kill us.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: I think his point is that once we stop worrying so much about what the rest of the world will say, we'll simply repatriate them to Arab countries and move back onto our own land.
Fine, you could do that and reoccupy Gaza.
But it most definitely is unrealistic and idealistic to think that that would happen because "All we will need is some perseverance and everything will work out," without any messy "major military offensives."
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Lisa, why don't we all stop worrying about what others "think" and do whatever we please. How liberating to know that theft and murder arn't wrong, just unpopular.
Theft and murder are very wrong. I hope you aren't going to stoop to what Lyrhawn did the other day and try and claim that I'm saying something other than what I'm really saying.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I'm probably off a bit on the wording, but I do think that it shows how the increase in secular Jews in Israel might just give the Palestinean terrorists more hope.
"We won't ever learn, will we?", by Jonathan Rosenblum. The original story was in Hebrew, written by Aharon Barnea, an extremely left-wing journalist in Israel.
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quote:Originally posted by Morbo: But it most definitely is unrealistic and idealistic to think that that would happen because "All we will need is some perseverance and everything will work out," without any messy "major military offensives."
As I said, I think you'll be surprised. And I think you overestimate the difficulty we'll have with it.
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Interesting... so much for the "golden rule" actually being found across faiths then. I'd heard that touted by Jewish people themselves, although they probably weren't the most orthodox variety of Jew.
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Interesting... so much for the "golden rule" actually being found across faiths then. I'd heard that touted by Jewish people themselves, although they probably weren't the most orthodox variety of Jew.
Probably. We have a statement that says, "When one comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first." That would contradict what Hillel said if he was talking about just anyone, but he wasn't.
But we also have a rule that there are three things where one must die rather than transgress them. One is certain sexual transgressions. One is idolatry. And one is murder. If someone hold a gun to my head and tells me I must commit murder or he'll kill me, I can try and take the guy with the gun down, but I can't commit the murder and claim that the duress I was under excuses me.
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quote:All countries are bound by the same rules...
Israel is not held to a diferent standard than Sweden or the Sudan.
What utter nonsense. Israel is frequently held to a standard different than that of its primary enemy, Palestinian terrorists. In fact I would say 'almost constantly'. As for Sweden? It bears no similarity whatsoever, and so comparing Israel to Sweden-a nation without a tenth of the problems facing Israel-is foolish.
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quote:All countries are bound by the same rules...
Israel is not held to a diferent standard than Sweden or the Sudan.
What utter nonsense. Israel is frequently held to a standard different than that of its primary enemy, Palestinian terrorists. In fact I would say 'almost constantly'. As for Sweden? It bears no similarity whatsoever, and so comparing Israel to Sweden-a nation without a tenth of the problems facing Israel-is foolish.
quote:We won't need major military offensives, we will not need targeted killings and we will not need fences. All we will need is some perseverance and everything will work out. When we return to our appropriate place and proportions, our enemies will also return to their appropriate place and proportions. The question is not what we will do with them, but what we will do with ourselves.
I kinda like the idealism in this peace, but it's a little scary. I'm an idealist myself, although I disagree with much of what this author has to say.
I would say that targeted killings, fences, and major military offensives are not necessary now. If you're going to be idealistic, you must follow the ideals. The golden rule, "be the change you want to create in the world," and the goal of creating "an exemplary Jewish society that illuminates the world with its morality and G-dly conduct" dictate that Israel must adopt moral and "Godly" policies right away. Yet, today Israel threatens the assassination of the Hamas PM unless a kidnapped Israeli soldier (kidnapped by a group separate from the Hamas leadership, a kidnapping that was denounced by that Hamas leadership).
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Please, O King, stop subsidizing us.
The author of this piece is very wrong in many of his unattributed assertions. One example: he asserts that military aid is 50% higher than economic aid, but it is actually almost ten times the amount of nonmilitary aid. Read Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer's paper "The Israel Lobby" (PDF) for a very thorough explanation of Israel's strategic and tactical importance to the US that directly refutes what your link offers (this paper is not without flaw, but its conclusions are drawn on an extensive body of unquestioned facts).
quote:With respect, Rabbi Hillel was Hillel the Elder's g'g'etc'grandson. The above was stated by Hillel the Elder, who was never called "Rabbi Hillel". Also, "all the rest is commentary" is a poor (albeit common) translation. Better would be "the rest is the explanation". Lastly, "neighbor" is definitely a bad translation. The word is "chaver", or "friend" or "comrade". It certainly does not include those who would kill us.
oh I guess the golden rule really isn't a good one then. :sigh:
I don't know if you should call it "UN bias" if the UN passes security counsel resolutions against Israel for specific offenses this often. I don't see why a body so consistently opposed to Israel should allow it a spot on the security counsel, for example (your link's first example of bias). If you have a problem with the UN rules that it accuses Israel of breaking, that's one thing, but if you believe those rules/norms are just, then what?
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quote:What utter nonsense. Israel is frequently held to a standard different than that of its primary enemy, Palestinian terrorists. In fact I would say 'almost constantly'. As for Sweden? It bears no similarity whatsoever, and so comparing Israel to Sweden-a nation without a tenth of the problems facing Israel-is foolish.
I guess this is the part I don't get. Problems or no problems. Why compare yourselves to your enemies? PArticularly as far as moral conduct goes. Saying "I'm more moral than my enemy" is irrelevant.
Shouldn't you want to be conducting yourselves to the highest standard of good behavior regardless of the problems involved with doing so?
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quote:Originally posted by Nato: I would say that targeted killings, fences, and major military offensives are not necessary now. If you're going to be idealistic, you must follow the ideals. The golden rule, "be the change you want to create in the world,"
Heh. Now Immanuel Kant is the source of a "Golden Rule"? With all due respect, Nato, the ideals Moshe Feiglin is talking about in his article are very different from yours. It's quite possible to be idealistic even when the ideals you're holding firm to differ from Nato's.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: and the goal of creating "an exemplary Jewish society that illuminates the world with its morality and G-dly conduct" dictate that Israel must adopt moral and "Godly" policies right away.
Indeed. And although I actually haven't read past this point in your post yet, I have the distressing feeling that you're going to go ahead and tell us what "moral and Godly policies" would be. Before I get there, I just want to reiterate that "moral and Godly" are determined, for us, by the laws God gave us. And not by the moralizing of Nato.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: Yet, today Israel threatens the assassination of the Hamas PM unless a kidnapped Israeli soldier (kidnapped by a group separate from the Hamas leadership, a kidnapping that was denounced by that Hamas leadership).
Denounced. Right. Hamas is the organization that has people calling Fatah "moderate" by comparison, even though Fatah still sponsors and applauds terror attacks and the incessant firing of rockets into Israel from Gaza. A comparison with Nazi Germany would be appropriate here. Germany as a whole was at war with the Allies. But members of the Nazi party were particularly odious. And members of the SS were the filthiest of the lot. While the analogy isn't a perfect one (and what analogy ever is), comparing the Palestinians to the Germans, Fatah and all its associated forces with Nazi party members, and Hamas with the SS is pretty close to the truth.
I would hope that so long as their war against Israel continues, not a single Hamas member would consider himself or herself safe.
quote:Originally posted by Nato:
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Please, O King, stop subsidizing us.
The author of this piece is very wrong in many of his unattributed assertions. One example: he asserts that military aid is 50% higher than economic aid, but it is actually almost ten times the amount of nonmilitary aid. Read Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer's paper "The Israel Lobby" (PDF) for a very thorough explanation of Israel's strategic and tactical importance to the US that directly refutes what your link offers (this paper is not without flaw, but its conclusions are drawn on an extensive body of unquestioned facts).
We're willing to take the chance. Please. Eliminate aid to Israel. It'll be like cutting a junkie off cold turkey, but the end result will be every bit as much worthwhile.
quote:Originally posted by Nato:
quote:With respect, Rabbi Hillel was Hillel the Elder's g'g'etc'grandson. The above was stated by Hillel the Elder, who was never called "Rabbi Hillel". Also, "all the rest is commentary" is a poor (albeit common) translation. Better would be "the rest is the explanation". Lastly, "neighbor" is definitely a bad translation. The word is "chaver", or "friend" or "comrade". It certainly does not include those who would kill us.
oh I guess the golden rule really isn't a good one then. :sigh:
You mean the "Do unto others" one? No, I don't think it is. The world would have been a much nicer place without people constantly doing unto others. If that rule is redeemable at all, it would be by changing it to "Do unto others as they would have you do unto them." And even that is far from ideal.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: I don't know if you should call it "UN bias" if the UN passes security counsel resolutions against Israel for specific offenses this often. I don't see why a body so consistently opposed to Israel should allow it a spot on the security counsel, for example (your link's first example of bias). If you have a problem with the UN rules that it accuses Israel of breaking, that's one thing, but if you believe those rules/norms are just, then what?
As usual, Nato graces us with an anti-semitic site. Note the use of quotation marks around "Israel". And the link to the story about Mohamed Durra, whose death was falsely attributed to Israel.
What can you expect from a site that doesn't even recognize the existence of the State of Israel?
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quote:What utter nonsense. Israel is frequently held to a standard different than that of its primary enemy, Palestinian terrorists. In fact I would say 'almost constantly'. As for Sweden? It bears no similarity whatsoever, and so comparing Israel to Sweden-a nation without a tenth of the problems facing Israel-is foolish.
I guess this is the part I don't get. Problems or no problems. Why compare yourselves to your enemies? PArticularly as far as moral conduct goes. Saying "I'm more moral than my enemy" is irrelevant.
Shouldn't you want to be conducting yourselves to the highest standard of good behavior regardless of the problems involved with doing so?
Sure. But the question is, what's the highest standard of good behavior? Some would say that killing is always wrong, and that if someone tries to kill you, you should still try not to kill him. We, on the other hand, hold it to be not merely permitted to kill him if necessary, but obligatory. We consider that the moral imperative.
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Any time some person or group wants to use religion as an excuse to kill people, subjugate them, or take their property, it scares me. No matter who's doing it, or what their religion.
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Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious # obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member # states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of # two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the # council's order not to deport Palestinians".
Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide # by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its # claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported # Palestinian mayors".
Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's # nuclear facility".
Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan # Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and # allow food supplies to be brought in".
Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions # and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia # in attack on PLO headquarters.
Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw # its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students # at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices # denying the human rights of Palestinians.
Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly # requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians # and calls for their immediate return.
Now my original question: do you reject the UN rules/norms that these resolutions condemn Israel for breaking? Do you think Israel should be exempt for some reason? (why?) Or what?
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quote: Sure. But the question is, what's the highest standard of good behavior? Some would say that killing is always wrong, and that if someone tries to kill you, you should still try not to kill him. We, on the other hand, hold it to be not merely permitted to kill him if necessary, but obligatory. We consider that the moral imperative.
This makes me sad. It also shows why a man like Ghandi would never cut it in the middle east.
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I reject them. I reject their application to Israel. I reject their analysis of the situation that led them to issue these condemnations.
Take Resolution 799, for example. We took 413 monsters with blood on their hands and deported them. And for this, the UN condemned us. That condemnation condemns the UN; not us.
A goodly number of those condemnations were while Israel was in Lebanon. We went into Lebanon because the government of Lebanon was unwilling or unable to prevent rockets from being launched on a daily basis into Israel from Lebanese territory. That's an act of war. We tolerated it for years. And I don't notice any UN condemnations of the shelling of Israel towns by Arabs in Lebanon. Because that's not something that really interests the UN.
The Arabs in Gaza have been shelling the town of Sderot and other nearby areas ever since Israel pulled out of Gaza. Where are the UN condemnations for that? Or is that not against the "rules" you're talking about, Nato?
Seriously. The point Rakeesh made was that Israel is treated differently than anyone else. The fact that Israel gets condemned for such things when no one gets condemned for doing them to Israel simply proves Rakeesh correct.
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quote: Sure. But the question is, what's the highest standard of good behavior? Some would say that killing is always wrong, and that if someone tries to kill you, you should still try not to kill him. We, on the other hand, hold it to be not merely permitted to kill him if necessary, but obligatory. We consider that the moral imperative.
This makes me sad. It also shows why a man like Ghandi would never cut it in the middle east.
There's an interesting What If? story about if the Nazis had succeeded in taking Britain, and then, consequently, India. It describes the attempt of Gandhi and Nehru to use the same techniques against the Nazis that they did against the British. Needless to say, the results were a great deal less pleasant for the Indians.
Implacable malice can't be treated like simple opposition. The British, for all that they were colonialist, were civilized. There were limits on what they were willing to do in response to a rebellious colony. I'm sure the Indians would have preferred those limits to be other than they were, but in the end, limits did exist. The Nazis lacked the compunctions held by civilized peoples. So do, at the very least, the leaders of the Palestinians. They do not recognize any limitations whatsoever if those limitations interfere with their goal of destroying Israel.
Implacable malice. It can't be negotiated with. The Allies learned that during WWII. The NATO countries learned it during the Cold War. And Israel... well, God willing, Israel will learn it sooner, rather than later.
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I hear you, AJ. I think that it is. That they've made it more than abundantly clear that it is. And that we'd be foolish to doubt it at this point.
I also think that they can change it. And that they can convince us that they have. But they seem stunningly uninterested in doing so.
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Indeed. And although I actually haven't read past this point in your post yet, I have the distressing feeling that you're going to go ahead and tell us what "moral and Godly policies" would be. Before I get there, I just want to reiterate that "moral and Godly" are determined, for us, by the laws God gave us. And not by the moralizing of Nato.
I won't tell you some absolute standard of moral action. I am not a moral authority, although I do have many objections to Israel's actions on a moral register. I don't recognize the laws God gave you as legitimate moral authority either, as I am not religious, but I won't quarrel with them as long as they produce what I believe to be moral action. The international community rejects Israel's actions (through security council resolutions as one example) because Israel's actions breach international standards for treatment of refugees and civilian populations, among other things.
quote:The Arabs in Gaza have been shelling the town of Sderot and other nearby areas ever since Israel pulled out of Gaza. Where are the UN condemnations for that? Or is that not against the "rules" you're talking about, Nato?
The difference is that the people shelling those settlements are not affiliated with a state government. Since March, more than 8,000 Israeli artillery shells have landed in Gaza (UN statistic). That is the action of a state. The UN governs states, not individuals, and so a condemnation of individual actions is not in their purview.
quote:I reject them [UN regulations/international laws/norms]. I reject their application to Israel. I reject their analysis of the situation that led them to issue these condemnations.
Your position is very inconsistent. You don't want Israel treated on the same standards that other nations must abide by. And by your standards, getting hit with shells must be met by returning fire (over 100 shells landing in Gaza per day on average since March), yet you don't think Arabs returning fire meets the same standard? (note: I do not support rockets/shells being fired from either side) The kidnapping of one person is met with the destruction of the source of water and power for 10,000 and you consider it justified? What then is the justified response to the destruction of the source of water and power for 10,000 people?
quote:The Nazis lacked the compunctions held by civilized peoples. So do, at the very least, the leaders of the Israelis. They do not recognize any limitations (UN security council resolutions, international law) whatsoever if those limitations interfere with their goal of establishing of an Arab-free Israel as they want it.
Don't use overblown rhetoric please, it doesn't help the discussion at all.
posted
Rakeesh, it is by no means held to a different standard than the Palestinian State. The war between the two states is not only tragic in the way which all wars are but made more tragic by the fact that both sides openly and willingly target civilians as much as or more than military targets.
quote: No, Pelagius, we bloody well are not. And despite what you wrote further on, I'm not talking about the rules you are. In fact, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than those rules, and always have. I'm referring to our internal issues.
Oh, very noble, I might even take it seriously if there were any sign of Israel acting on these high standards. I have often been ashamed of my country's actions, but the immorality of the U.S. and other western powers pales in comparision to the tactics used by Israel in its war against Palestinian militants. No other Western industrialized democracy has, in the post-Cold War era, displayed the same flagrent disregard for international standards on human rights as has Israel.
quote: Theft and murder are very wro
I am glad you think so. The IDF, despite the nobal aims expresed in the Purity of Arms Code, has been known, on more than one occasion, to commit murder and property destruction.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Nato: The international community rejects Israel's actions (through security counsel resolutions as one example) because Israel's actions breach international standards for treatment of refugees and civilian populations, among other things.
I reject the judgement of this "community". They have no authority, moral or otherwise. Israel needs to do the right thing. Not what some community of bias tells us to do.
quote:Originally posted by Nato:
quote:The Arabs in Gaza have been shelling the town of Sderot and other nearby areas ever since Israel pulled out of Gaza. Where are the UN condemnations for that? Or is that not against the "rules" you're talking about, Nato?
The difference is that the people shelling those settlements are not affiliated with a state government.
I disagree. And so does the State of Israel. And the fact that the heads of the Arabs in Gaza do nothing to prevent the shelling would make it their responsibility even if they were not behind the shelling in the first place.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: Since March, more than 8,000 Israeli artillery shells have landed in Gaza (UN statistic). That is the action of a state. The UN governs states, not individuals, and so a condemnation of individual actions is not in their purview.
In fact, the UN does not govern states. It does not govern anyone. Again, contrary to what you might wish, it is not a World Government. It does not carry that sort of authority.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: Your position is very inconsistent. You don't want Israel treated on the same standards that other nations must abide by. And by your standards, getting hit with shells must be met by returning fire (over 100 shells landing in Gaza per day on average since March), yet you don't think Arabs returning fire meets the same standard?
They aren't "returning fire". Israel targets military and criminal sites. They fire at innocent townspeople, in order to foment terror.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: (note: I do not support rockets/shells being fired from either side) The kidnapping of one person is met with the destruction of the source of water and power for 10,000 and you consider it justified?
Parroting Arab propaganda only makes you look silly, Nato. And frankly, you don't need the help.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: What then is the justified response to the destruction of the source of water and power for 10,000 people?
The correct response is to start behaving responsibly. But we don't actually expect that.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: Don't use overblown rhetoric please, it doesn't help the discussion at all.
It's not rhetoric, and it's not overblown. And your reversal was on the same level of maturity as "I know you are, but what am I?"
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:They aren't "returning fire". Israel targets military and criminal sites. They fire at innocent townspeople, in order to foment terror.
And the recent shelling of the public beach that killed a civillian family in Gaza was what? (Israel called it a "work accident" and then the result of a "Hamas mine" --not likely)
quote:I reject the judgement of this "community". They have no authority, moral or otherwise. Israel needs to do the right thing. Not what some community of bias tells us to do.
I don't think Israel is doing the "right thing." Shelling/invading Gaza is very wrong in my opinion, and in the opinion of the UN/world community that you don't want to recognize.
quote:In fact, the UN does not govern states. It does not govern anyone.
You're right; I'm sorry I used the word "govern." I was explaining that the actors the UN is concerned with are primarily states, which are viewed in most schools of international relations as independent but unitary actors. If the UN had the power to "govern" Israel, you would see police action instead of constant resolutions stating that Israel is in breach of international norms/regulations.
a "norm" is not a law, but a standard convention for acceptable behavior that we expect civilized countries to adhere to. Israel's disregard for the human rights of Palestinians is in flagrant violation of these norms, and the many UN resolutions seeking to change Israel's behavior seek to bring Israel back within international norms for civilized government.
Here are some examples of recent Israeli behavior that goes against international norms:
quote:Chicago court hears chilling tales of torture March 14, 2006 - In federal court in Chicago Tuesday, chilling stories about the torture of political prisoners by Israeli police. Testimony came during a hearing in the case against Muhammad Salah, who is accused of laundering money for Palestinian terrorists.
quote:Israel murders, maims more children in Gaza At least one Palestinian child was killed and seven others injured when an Israeli warplane Tuesday fired an air-to-ground missile onto a busy street in northern Gaza, Palestinian sources said.
Medical sources said a seven-year-old boy was killed instantly and seven other children sustained varied injuries when the hellfire missile hit a crowded street at the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza.
quote: New evidence raises questions about Israel's role in beach explosion BEIT LAHIYA, Gaza Strip - Two weeks after an explosion on a Gaza Strip beach killed eight picnickers and turned images of an 11-year-old Palestinian wailing over her dead father into an icon of the Arab-Israeli conflict, new evidence is raising questions about the Israeli version of what took place.
The Israeli military cleared itself of responsibility for the deaths, saying that whatever exploded on the beach June 9 wasn't an errant shell fired by Israeli soldiers during a barrage of the waterfront. Based on video clips from one of its ships, Israel concluded that the explosion came at least 10 minutes after the military had stopped shelling.
But medical logs, cell phone records and other evidence reviewed by Knight Ridder suggest that the explosion took place during the barrage and probably was due to an artillery round.
quote:They aren't "returning fire". Israel targets military and criminal sites. They fire at innocent townspeople, in order to foment terror.
And the recent shelling of the public beach that killed a civillian family in Gaza was what? (Israel called it a "work accident" and then the result of a "Hamas mine" --not likely)
We actually apologized for that before we investigated it. We were that eager to take responsibility if we'd done something wrong. But then we did investigate it, and it turned out not to have been our doing.
quote:Originally posted by Nato:
quote:I reject the judgement of this "community". They have no authority, moral or otherwise. Israel needs to do the right thing. Not what some community of bias tells us to do.
I don't think Israel is doing the "right thing." Shelling/invading Gaza is very wrong in my opinion, and in the opinion of the UN/world community that you don't want to recognize.
But then, I don't recognize them or you as having any moral authority. Quite the contrary.
quote:Originally posted by Nato: a "norm" is not a law, but a standard convention for acceptable behavior that we expect civilized countries to adhere to. Israel's disregard for the human rights of Palestinians is in flagrant violation of these norms, and the many UN resolutions seeking to change Israel's behavior seek to bring Israel back within international norms for civilized government.
Not really. And again, the UN seems very unconcerned with the atrocities carried out by the Palestinians. Why should we take the double standards of such an organization seriously?
quote:Originally posted by Nato:
quote:Israel murders, maims more children in Gaza At least one Palestinian child was killed and seven others injured when an Israeli warplane Tuesday fired an air-to-ground missile onto a busy street in northern Gaza, Palestinian sources said.
We don't target children. But we also don't concentrate our military presence in the middle of civilians. The fact that the terrorists use civilians as human shields (generally with the full consent of the civilians) isn't our problem. Our lives are more important to us than theirs are. As it should be.
quote:The international community rejects Israel's actions (through security council resolutions as one example) because Israel's actions breach international standards for treatment of refugees and civilian populations, among other things.
Why is the UN Security Council deemed a moral authority? Seriously. Give me one good reason besides they're the status quo. The simple fact of the matter is that although the aims of the United Nations are moral, the means they utilize frequently are not. They're like...well, they're a tool. The tool is only as worthwhile as its wielder and its application.
quote:The difference is that the people shelling those settlements are not affiliated with a state government. Since March, more than 8,000 Israeli artillery shells have landed in Gaza (UN statistic). That is the action of a state. The UN governs states, not individuals, and so a condemnation of individual actions is not in their purview.
HAMAS is the current leadership in the government of Palestinians. Did you miss this 'trivial' fact? And what is one of the things Hamas is most famous for? Why, I'll be! Targeting Israeli civilians for murder to achieve political ends!
Aside from that, again, just because Israel uses military force in a populated area against military targets does not mean they are targeting the population. Even if the population, if the duration of rocket attacks is any indicator, must tacitly approve-whether out of fear or agreement-of the attacks.
quote:The kidnapping of one person is met with the destruction of the source of water and power for 10,000 and you consider it justified? What then is the justified response to the destruction of the source of water and power for 10,000 people?
Another trivial detail: the issue is not just one person's kidnapping. There were two other IDF personnel killed in this kidnapping-at least you're not saying 'arrest'-and then there was the other hostage murdered, who was not military.
Perhaps if the Palestinians did not make it their primary method of effecting political change to target civilians for death, Israel would not retaliate with disrupting their power and water (yeah, guess what...that's not death!)
quote:Don't use overblown rhetoric please, it doesn't help the discussion at all.
Given that in discussions involving Israel and Jews you have frequently brought forth the fairly irrelevant and unnecessary tidbit that the Holocaust was 'exaggerated', I don't see how you're some sort of authority on what helps the discussion.
quote:And the recent shelling of the public beach that killed a civillian family in Gaza was what? (Israel called it a "work accident" and then the result of a "Hamas mine" --not likely)
It's enlightening that you view IDF reports as suspect, without applying that same level of skepticism-that I've ever noticed-to their enemies.
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Pelegius,
quote:The war between the two states is not only tragic in the way which all wars are but made more tragic by the fact that both sides openly and willingly target civilians as much as or more than military targets.
Yes, well, that's a lie and a stupid one at that. Any fool can tell that if the IDF made a policy of targeting civilians to the extent you're claiming, there would be a metric s*&t-ton more civilian deaths amongst Palestinians.
But there is no real way to prove this, for or against. So you'll be left with your belief that it's fact, and I'll be left with my belief that it's a stupid belief. If the IDF targeted civilians as thoroughly and as frequently as their enemies did, Palestinian casualities with each incident would number in the hundreds and thousands, and not the dozens and scores. Seeing as how they're using tanks and air strikes and conventional military-grade explosives in populated areas, instead of rocks and molotov cocktails and suicide bombers and AK-47s and homemade rockets.
quote:I am glad you think so. The IDF, despite the nobal aims expresed in the Purity of Arms Code, has been known, on more than one occasion, to commit murder and property destruction.
IDF's enemies have been known, constantly, to commit wilful murder of civilians. It's in their freaking charter. There are daily telecasts honoring 'martyrs'. There are streets named after them. They're revered as heroes.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:These are UN security counsel resolutions against Israel 1955-1992:
I'd appreciate it if you could link the UN condemnations of the surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria during 1973 and the shelling of Israeli villages from inside Syria prior to the 1967 war.
quote:The actual history of Israel would be to say that they took what they were suposed to share as their own and then proceeded to invade neighboring territories.
"How I bought into one-sided propaganda" or "How to rewrite history in one sentence," by Pelegius.
The history of the region is not as simple as either Lisa or you are making it out to be, but this is orders of magnitude beyond anything else happening in this thread.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Lisa, why don't we all stop worrying about what others "think" and do whatever we please. How liberating to know that theft and murder arn't wrong, just unpopular.
Theft and murder are very wrong. I hope you aren't going to stoop to what Lyrhawn did the other day and try and claim that I'm saying something other than what I'm really saying.
If you're going to call me a liar behind my back, the least you could do is quote me.
Please point out where I misrepresented you.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Why is the UN Security Council deemed a moral authority? Seriously. Give me one good reason besides they're the status quo. The simple fact of the matter is that although the aims of the United Nations are moral, the means they utilize frequently are not. They're like...well, they're a tool. The tool is only as worthwhile as its wielder and its application.
I'll grant you that. I don't think the UN is perfect at all, although I trust the majority opinions of the UN to better represent world norms than the statements/actions of a single state. The UN is perhaps a weather vane we can use to determine international standards
quote:It's enlightening that you view IDF reports as suspect, without applying that same level of skepticism-that I've ever noticed-to their enemies.
:shrugs: Did you read that news article I posted where Knight-Ridder reporters determined it was likely to be an Israeli shell?
Also, The Mossad motto is, "By Way of Deception, thou shalt do War"
quote:HAMAS is the current leadership in the government of Palestinians. Did you miss this 'trivial' fact? And what is one of the things Hamas is most famous for? Why, I'll be! Targeting Israeli civilians for murder to achieve political ends!
I believe the election of Hamas was more a rejection of the complete failure of Fatah to help the Palestinian people with their day-to-day problems: how to find enough food, how to travel between towns to conduct business, etc. I think that the election may have turned out quite different if a non-Hamas non-Fatah party had been viable. I am saddened by Hamas' history and ideals, but I don't believe that they truly represent the wishes of majority of the Palestinian people, which I believe merely want to live their lives in peace.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:The UN is perhaps a weather vane we can use to determine international standards.
You've dodged the question. Why then should international standards be a moral compass? You're essentially saying, "Enough people are saying it so it's good." I believe there's a term for that.
quote:Also, The Mossad motto is, "By Way of Deception, thou shalt do War
Is it possible you are so naive that you believe the Mossad is somehow unique in this? Especially in that region in the world?
quote:Did you read that news article I posted where Knight-Ridder reporters determined it was likely to be an Israeli shell?
You'll not be able to quote me making any statements about whether or not I believe Israeli claims that it was not a shell of theirs, recently fired or a dud or whatever. The fact of the matter is I believe both sides would be very willing to exploit this and twist forensic evidence to frame their enemies, thus I am extremely skeptical of both sides' position.
Whereas you focus exclusively on Israeli deception and misdeeds at almost every turn.
quote:I believe the election of Hamas was more a rejection of the complete failure of Fatah to help the Palestinian people with their day-to-day problems: how to find enough food, how to travel between towns to conduct business, etc. I think that the election may have turned out quite different if a non-Hamas non-Fatah party had been viable. I am saddened by Hamas' history and ideals, but I don't believe that they truly represent the wishes of majority of the Palestinian people, which I believe merely want to live their lives in peace.
Beliefs are nice. Your belief and $1.06 and Palestinian politics get you nothing, a double cheeseburger at McDonald's, and a stunning victory for a world-famous terrorist organization, Hamas. In other words, maybe-just maybe-it was a rejection of Fatah and an endorsement of Hamas terrorism tactics. Since, you know, they're called 'martyrs' over there and celebrated and revered and have things named after them. Oh, and they're commonly believed to be in Paradise an instant after murdering civilians.
So you can believe what people want. It's stunningly hypocritical that you hold the Israeli government to such a high standard, yet you blithely exonerate Palestinians of their election of an organization which plays a major part in the targeting and murder of civilians for political goals.
Israel: Needs to be nicer, because they have an obligation to be...umm...the international community says so.
Palestinians: Need to be treated more nicely, even when they elect Hamas as their government. Israel needs to, like, read their minds to know their intent is actually warm and fuzzy.
I have a very difficult time refraining from heaping scorn on such nonsense, as you can see. Maybe when you truly apply a level standard of judgement, I'll find it easier.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I have to say, Rakeesh makes some very good points here, Nato old boy.
While it's very true that Fatah and the PLO in general was infamously corrupt and incompetent, that doesn't excuse the Gaza Palestinians for voting in a freaking active terrorist group as their government. I'll leave aside whether the PLO is an active terrorist group (factions of it have been in the past, I assume some are still actively promoting terrorism), but they still had some tattered shreds of international credibility--which you've argued for on this thread, calling for Israel to comply with "international norms" and "international standards." If Israel must, then why, pray, do the Gazans get carte blanche, a free pass to elect terrorists??
quote:Originally posted by Nato: I believe the election of Hamas was more a rejection of the complete failure of Fatah to help the Palestinian people with their day-to-day problems: how to find enough food, how to travel between towns to conduct business, etc. I think that the election may have turned out quite different if a non-Hamas non-Fatah party had been viable. I am saddened by Hamas' history and ideals, but I don't believe that they truly represent the wishes of majority of the Palestinian people, which I believe merely want to live their lives in peace.
Hamas' history and ideals may not represent the wishes of majority of the Palestinian people, but Hamas certainly does represent the Gazan Palestinians politically, so what's your point? Hamas was elected, and now the Palestinians have absolutely no deniability or credibility regarding terrorism. I hope ousting Fatah was worth that.
posted
Dag, it is very much that simple. Under the British/U.N. mandate the idea was very clear that Israel was suposed to be a place where Jews could come from all over the world, but not a soley Jewish state, which would involve deporting an Arab majority and an Armenian minority. Israel had every right to counter-attack during various wars, but not to hold territory for decades after the peace treaty had been signed.
Rakeesh, as I waqas quite clear in my condemnation of both sides of the conflict, your anti-militant rhetoric, no matter how justified, can do no damage to my argument as I have never defended terrorist attacks. Your claim that the IDF does not systematicly target civilians is laughable:
quote:Under the British/U.N. mandate the idea was very clear that Israel was suposed to be a place where Jews could come from all over the world, but not a soley Jewish state, which would involve deporting an Arab majority and an Armenian minority. Israel had every right to counter-attack during various wars, but not to hold territory for decades after the peace treaty had been signed.
Which peace treaty are you speaking of? By the time of the Camp David accords in the late 70s, 70s, only Egypt, of all the Arab countries, had recognized Israel. You don't make treaties with countries that don't even recognize you as a country and who regularly promise to annihilate your entire population.
Israel didn't deport people in 1948 to make the state exclusively Jewish. People left so that Arab armies could drive the Jewish settlers into the sea. Oops. Bad choice on their part.
(And note I haven't said Israel never deported people. I'm saying they've never engaged in a policy of deporting people for merely being non-Jewish.)
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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