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" You don't get to decide that a horrible crime perpetrated against us was "good for us" Your inferiority complex is quite intersting. Every ethnic group has been forced to move for some reason, hence the fact that the world is populated by a single race from central Africa. Bear this in mind, I too am descendant of a nation displaced by the Romans, pushed outward onto barren craigs at the edges of Europe, then the known world.
And, yes, I do maintain that the diaspora was beneficial, without it there would be no Rabbis not Synagogues, no glorious tradition of Jewish scholarship throughout Europe and North America.
"Israel is, indeed, a nation-state, and the fact that there are non-Jews living there makes not a whit of difference to that fact." Do you understand the term "nation-state?" I would love to hear your definition as it most clearly bears no relation to what I learned in Human Geography.
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quote:And, yes, I do maintain that the diaspora was beneficial, without it there would be no Rabbis not Synagogues, no glorious tradition of Jewish scholarship throughout Europe and North America.
Certainly there can be good that would not exist but for the commission of some evil. It makes the evil no less evil for all that. I think Tolkien sums this up well in the Silmarillion:
quote:'Thus even ... shall beauty not before conceived be brought into [the world], and evil yet be good to have been.' But Mandos [guardian of the dead] said: 'And yet remain evil.'
Edit: I'm not commenting as to whether there were good effects at all from the Diaspora. I'm merely stating that even if there were such effects, what Rome did is no less wrong because of them.
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quote:"Israel is, indeed, a nation-state, and the fact that there are non-Jews living there makes not a whit of difference to that fact." Do you understand the term "nation-state?" I would love to hear your definition as it most clearly bears no relation to what I learned in Human Geography.
Since apparently you define 'nation-state' as a country which has almost no signifigant minority population, I'd say what you learned in Human Geopgraphy has little to nothing to do with what I've learned in the Real World.
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I did not deny that what Rome did was wrong in intent, only that it was the best thing that could have happened to Judaism, which would otherwise be a semi-obscure regional religion like Zoroastrianism, rather than a major world religion.
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quote:I did not deny that what Rome did was wrong in intent, only that it was the best thing that could have happened to Judaism
I think you have no knowledge upon which to base this, because you have no idea what would have happened had the Temple not been destroyed and the other losses associated with that destruction occurred.
quote:which would otherwise be a semi-obscure regional religion like Zoroastrianism, rather than a major world religion
Without venturing an opinion on your conclusion, are you so sure that Jews would consider a smaller size and more concentrated locality a bad thing?
Judaism seeks no converts, and I doubt a credible case can be made that there would be more non-observant Jews had the Diaspora not occurred.
And, while concentration would have rendered Jews more vulnerable in some ways to mass attacks and a single disaster, it wouldn't have made them as vulnerable to the many pogroms and the Holocaust. It's very hard to say what would have happened.
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Anyone who actually practices internation relations or similar field can tell you there is no accepted, objective definition of nation-state or nation. Many incorrect things are taught in high school.
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Just because there is no single widely accepted definition for those terms does not mean that any nation with a signifigant minority population is not a nation or nation-state.
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It just makes it nearly pointless to try talking about groups in those terms for the purposes of political discussions. State is a nice, useful, fairly well defined, mostly objective term.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: " You don't get to decide that a horrible crime perpetrated against us was "good for us" Your inferiority complex is quite intersting.
Oh, do grow up, Pelegius. Recognizing a crime that was committed against us is an "inferiority complex"? Believe me, kid, I'm not the one I view as inferior here.
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Every ethnic group has been forced to move for some reason, hence the fact that the world is populated by a single race from central Africa.
None have ties to their original homelands. None except us. And we will not acquiesce to the robbery of our land. This is not some sort of reconstruction of ancient history, where we were quite happy living elsewhere and suddenly decided to pick a place where we used to live. You need to learn a little about the subject before you start pontificating. The Babylonian exile didn't get us to give up on our home, and we returned. The Roman exile didn't either, and we returned. And we will always return. Because that's our home. It belongs to us, and it is a sacred responsibility.
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Bear this in mind, I too am descendant of a nation displaced by the Romans, pushed outward onto barren craigs at the edges of Europe, then the known world.
Oh, who cares? Your people never maintained their claim on their original home. My people never went a fraction of a day without recalling it. Every wedding, every celebration, for thousands of years, has included mention of the reason why we can't ever celebrate fully. Because we aren't in possession of our homeland.
And you compare that to your history?
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: And, yes, I do maintain that the diaspora was beneficial, without it there would be no Rabbis not Synagogues, no glorious tradition of Jewish scholarship throughout Europe and North America.
Then I suppose you don't realize that there were rabbis and synagogues long before we were exiled from our lands. You disgust me, Pelegius. You're the kind of person who would tell a rape victim that she should be glad she went through an experience that made her stronger. Who are you to tell us what's good for us and what's not?
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: "Israel is, indeed, a nation-state, and the fact that there are non-Jews living there makes not a whit of difference to that fact." Do you understand the term "nation-state?" I would love to hear your definition as it most clearly bears no relation to what I learned in Human Geography.
Yes, I do. And I look forward to the day when you "look back on all the crap you learned in high school" and realize that there's more to life than the pap you're being fed.
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Lisa, either explain your view of a nation-state, with some authority to back it, or be quite. As of now everyone, except those of us lucky enough to be, like you, in direct communication with the linguistic deity who defines things, define a nation-state as being something totaly different from what you see it as. To me, and everyone else I know, a nation-state is a state inhabited almost exculisivly by members of one nation. I admit I learnes this in Secondary School, and I am sure my School, like everywhere else, was a indoctranation lab for anti-semites like me.
You know who I really feel sorry for, all the Jewish students who learned about nation-states never knowing that this was an anti-semetic doctrine.
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P.S., "Before the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, communal prayers centered around the korbanot ("sacrificial offerings") brought by the kohanim ("Jewish priests") in the Holy Temple. The all-day Yom Kippur service, in fact, was an event in which the congregation both observed the movements of the kohen gadol ("Jewish high priest") as he offered the day's sacrifices and prayed for his success." From the Wikipedia artical on Synagogues. Yes, I know that Wikipedia is run by anti-semites like me and all those people I went to school with.
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The Wikipedia artical focuses on the concept of an ideal nation-state, then pointing out that such an example does not exist.
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Exactly. And yet it applies the term "nation-state" to lots of nations that all ideal. Stop insisting that others draw the line in the same place you do. And definitely stop insisting that everybody else agrees with where you draw the line. They don't.
There's no such thing as an ideal "free market," either, but that doesn't stop us from using the term to describe real world markets.
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I just read this thread. I really have nothing to add to the current discussion, but I wanted to comment on this:
quote:Our problem is how to be Jews who fulfill their destiny -- to perfect the world in the kingdom of Heaven -- in the Land of Israel.
I find that a little scarey. If they are just talking about Israel, I am ok with it. Having a religion I don't believe have a goal to perfect me scares me. I know some religions, like Mormons, have that as a stated goal, but it feels like a Jewish theocracy (which is how I am reading this) would be a lot more intrusive in what I consider to be personal rights.
Maybe that is not a reference to a Jewish Theocracy. After all they just want their own state-not a world state. The quote just rubbed me the wrong way.
Can you shed light for me StarLisa? Would they change laws to reflect Jewish tradition/morality to try and perfect the world? I hope not.
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quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: P.S., "Before the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, communal prayers centered around the korbanot ("sacrificial offerings") brought by the kohanim ("Jewish priests") in the Holy Temple.
They still do, Pelegius. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I guess. Note that the vast majority of Jews prior to 70 CE didn't live anywhere near the Temple or Jerusalem. The essense of Jewish worship was always to worship God. The sacrifices were and are a requirement (conditional on it being possible to offer them, of course), but they were never the essense of worshipping God. That was the error that people had fallen in which the prophets spent so much time and energy clarifying.
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: The all-day Yom Kippur service, in fact, was an event in which the congregation both observed the movements of the kohen gadol ("Jewish high priest") as he offered the day's sacrifices and prayed for his success."
So what?
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: From the Wikipedia artical on Synagogues. Yes, I know that Wikipedia is run by anti-semites like me and all those people I went to school with.
I'm trying to figure out why you're raising the issue of anti-semitism. I don't think you're an anti-semite. I think you're a child.
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quote:Originally posted by lem: I just read this thread. I really have nothing to add to the current discussion, but I wanted to comment on this:
quote:Our problem is how to be Jews who fulfill their destiny -- to perfect the world in the kingdom of Heaven -- in the Land of Israel.
I find that a little scarey. If they are just talking about Israel, I am ok with it. Having a religion I don't believe have a goal to perfect me scares me. I know some religions, like Mormons, have that as a stated goal, but it feels like a Jewish theocracy (which is how I am reading this) would be a lot more intrusive in what I consider to be personal rights.
Maybe that is not a reference to a Jewish Theocracy. After all they just want their own state-not a world state. The quote just rubbed me the wrong way.
Can you shed light for me StarLisa? Would they change laws to reflect Jewish tradition/morality to try and perfect the world? I hope not.
God has a plan for the world. But we need to get our house in order first. We're meant to be teachers. We're the ones who can tell everyone else what God really wants from us. Every nation is supposed to run their own business. They'll just come to us when they want to know what the right thing is to do. God can take care of those nations who don't want to do the right thing without any help on our part. We are not intended to be the world's police force, God forbid, and we will never even consider such a role.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: God has a plan for the world. But we need to get our house in order first. We're meant to be teachers. We're the ones who can tell everyone else what God really wants from us. Every nation is supposed to run their own business. They'll just come to us when they want to know what the right thing is to do. God can take care of those nations who don't want to do the right thing without any help on our part. We are not intended to be the world's police force, God forbid, and we will never even consider such a role.
I can't make logical sense of this. A group who intends to teach the world can't get its own act together. A God who will take care of nations who won't do the right thing without help isn't.
The idea that ANY single, small group of people have all the answers for the entire world frightens me. How many different groups, all believing that God wants them to be in control/have all the answers/occupy the holy land/be His chosen people can be correct?
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: God has a plan for the world. But we need to get our house in order first. We're meant to be teachers. We're the ones who can tell everyone else what God really wants from us. Every nation is supposed to run their own business. They'll just come to us when they want to know what the right thing is to do. God can take care of those nations who don't want to do the right thing without any help on our part. We are not intended to be the world's police force, God forbid, and we will never even consider such a role.
I can't make logical sense of this. A group who intends to teach the world can't get its own act together. A God who will take care of nations who won't do the right thing without help isn't.
There are phases in history. The current one is one in which God's presence is "hidden". Far less obvious that it has been in the past and will be in the future. You might say that God's giving us all enough rope to hang ourselves, if that's what we want to do.
As far as us getting our act together, we're working on it.
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: The idea that ANY single, small group of people have all the answers for the entire world frightens me. How many different groups, all believing that God wants them to be in control/have all the answers/occupy the holy land/be His chosen people can be correct?
Why would it frighten you? It's not like we're going to roam the world forcing the truth down your throats. We'll be a resource. You won't have to listen to us. Any consequences of your choosing wrongly won't come from us. That's not our job.
See, that's one of the differences. Other people have insisted, wrongly, that they have the truth, and have "offered" it to you with a gun in one hand. No wonder you're skittish about the whole idea of there being a real Truth. But you don't have to worry about that from us.
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quote: Judaism seeks no converts, and I doubt a credible case can be made that there would be more non-observant Jews had the Diaspora not occurred.
This interests me. It was my understanding that at least around the time of Christ there were to some extent Jewish missionaries who strove to convert gentiles to the faith. Hence Jesus' comment about the a Pharisitical convert being "3x the child of hell he was before he met you."
As for the benefits of the diaspora. I think its extremely hard to judge whether it was beneficial or a terrible disadvantage as we simply do not know all the factors or the results as Dagonee has said.
Certainly even according to their own scriptures the Lord has used dispersion as a way to save the Jewish nation from corruption and other evils. See the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities for details.
I really cannot say with any sort of certainty had the diaspora not happened, what the state of the Jewish nation would be today. Certainly it was an evil act by the Roman empire, but I am always open to the idea that SOMETIMES adversity strengthens faith and resolve, while prosperity often breeds pride and corruption.
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quote: Judaism seeks no converts, and I doubt a credible case can be made that there would be more non-observant Jews had the Diaspora not occurred.
This interests me. It was my understanding that at least around the time of Christ there were to some extent Jewish missionaries who strove to convert gentiles to the faith.
There were many Romans at that time who converted to what we would call Noachidism. To many people, this was considered similar to converting to Judaism, even though it didn't actually make the people involved Jewish, or obligate them in all of the commandments Jews have to obey.
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