quote:Carr [a former school teacher] was arrested Wednesday morning and has confessed to certain elements of the crime that are unknown to the general public, KUSA reported.
After 10 years, finally that poor family might get some justice. I admit, like many others, I suspected someone in the family.
Also, Carr is being extradited from Thailand, a notorious child sex destination. I don't mean to ofend any Thai, but I don't know how to phrase that without giving some offense.
edit:like Rivka said, it's sad JonBenet's mother didn't live to see justice served.
posted
If I had a nickel for every time someone swore that it was the father, or the mother covering for the father....
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quote:Originally posted by Morbo: After 10 years, finally that poor family might get some justice. I admit, like many others, I suspected someone in the family.
Ditto. Too bad Patsy didn't live to see this.
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If he is convicted, then what a victory for law enforcement. And I must admit, I too did suspect someone in the family. I'm sure all that suspicion caused additional hurt to the Ramsay's. I'm sorry for my part in it. I would like to see some apologies from the people in the media and those that wrote books accusing the parents if this guy turns out to indeed be the killer.
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posted
Eek. Given the particulars of the crime, it kind of figures that you would have to travel to Bangkok to find him.
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I hope they do catch whoever did it... and in some ways I hope it is this guy, so that she (well, I guess they - mom and daughter) can finally rest peacefully.
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I hope we can someday move beyond the belief that catching someone's killer helps them rest any more peacefully.
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I don't necessarily mean that the capture helps the people who've passed. Their family having closure to the issue might, TomDavidson, although I cannot speak from experience on this matter. I’d imagine that since you’re posting, you can’t either.
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quote:I hope we can someday move beyond the belief that catching someone's killer helps them rest any more peacefully.
Why?
Seriously, you cannot possibly have any idea whether or not catching someone's killer helps them rest any more peacefully, so why hope to move past it?
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posted
I never suspeced the parents. Of course that's because I didn't care (any more than I would about any other murder) then and I don't care now. I don't see how the kid being killed being cute or the media hyping it up make a murder any more significant than any other.
I think that makes me unAmerican.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I hope we can someday move beyond the belief that catching someone's killer helps them rest any more peacefully.
My plan if I'm ever assaulted, raped, or murdered is to make sure that they go to jail for it for a good long time. And maybe it makes me a bad person, but I think I'd be happier as I died knowing my killer was going to suffer for what he'd done to me. If it turns out I have an awareness after death, I think my killer being caught would bring me joy then as well.
And by plan, I mean I have a specific list of things I should do in that situation if I have the chance to give the culprit the greatest chance of being aprehended and convicted.
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quote:And by plan, I mean I have a specific list of things I should do in that situation if I have the chance to give the culprit the greatest chance of being aprehended and convicted.
I'm assuming you wear a dye pack?
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I was in Boulder High School the year that it happened. The media circus surrounding the event is a warm and cherished childhood memory.
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You know, the more I hear about this the more I think it's waaaaay too early for speculation. The guys sounds like he might just be a wacko who's confessing. He's originally from Alabama, and the local TV news said they spoke with his ex-wife who says he was in Alabama when this murder took place.
Mr. Ramsay had some poignant words to say - he said after what happened to him and his wife, he hoped everyone would just withold judgment and wait and let the justice system work.
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quote:Originally posted by TMedina: The problem is, this guy has confessed to details not generally released to the public.
According to the police, at any rate.
-Trevor
Acording to the article he also did a very extensive study on the JonBenet under the encouragement of a teacher, its possible he found information that most of the general public was unaware of.
I think there is too little information right now for me to be sure he isnt just admitting to it, because something is wrong with his mental state.
But I too can't believe that was 10 years ago when all this way going on. I still lived in Malaysia then for crying out loud.
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Not necessarily. One of the stories mentions the arrest may have moved up because of the possibility he might flee, and because he was about to start work as a 2nd grade teacher.
Me, I'm waiting for the DNA tests.
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posted
There have been at least two investigators that wrote tell-all books after the murders. What possible details could still be concealed? A person who underwent an extensive study of the case could probably sound darn convincing.
I thought the DNA was a mixed sample and not reliable. I heard that somewhere. But there may be even bigger problems - the family said they're checking photo albums and records but that they're pretty sure he was in Alabama that Christmas, so the police are going to have to place him at the scene. Might not be easy to do.
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posted
He could be in Alabama on Christmas and be somewhere else later the same day. Just saying, is all. If he has a picture of himself holding a newspaper with the relevant date/city... But yeah, I remember that guy they arrested in the Elizabeth Smart disappearance. I was so happy when he died in custody, and it turned out he wasn't involved.
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Would I be a terrible cad to wonder how many lives might have been saved if the manpower and money used in investigating and reporting over this strange, sad little case that has so captured people's attention had instead been used in New Orleans, post-Katrina? Or East Asia, post-typhoon?
Children die every day; this one was photogenic. Does this fascination make us more sympathetic to all the others? Or does it just distract us, having so many sensationalistic elements?
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No, Sterling, you're not a cad. It's true. For example, how many poor kids have died in the same time frame, and did they get the same efforts and attention toward finding their killers? It's a sad fact that the media hype was the major reason so many resources were devoted to this case, and the media hype was all because she was a beauty queen.
But I have to say I don't begrudge the efforts spent finding JonBenet's killer. I just wish the same level of effort were available to everyone.
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: If I had a nickel for every time someone swore that it was the father, or the mother covering for the father....
If this is true, then the guilt is over many people's heads for concluding he was guilty all these years and ruining his life, even after his daughter died.
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posted
Earlier this summer I read the book, Dead Man Walking, by Helen Prejean. In this book, Sister Prejean details not just her relationship with Death Row in mates, but also her efforts to assist victims families. Her story was the first thing that came to mind when I read JonBenet's name in the new once again.
In the book, Helen Prejean works with two victims support groups. One is a group of white middle class parents whose children have been murdered. The other is a support group Sister Prejean starts in a predominantly black inner city neighborhood in the poorest part of New Orleans. The thing that struck me in her desciptions is how similar the two groups were in their grief, their anger and their stuggles, yet how utterly different they were treated by the criminal justice system.
The murderes of poor blacks, were almost never investigated by the police in more than a very superficial way. Most of the black families would never see anyone charged, never see a trial or any punishement for the murder of their loved ones.
While I find relief in the fact that JonBenet's murderer may have been arrested and hope that this will bring some closure for her family. I am deeply saddened that we continue to have a different commitment to justice for the rich, the famous, and the white, than we do for the poor minorities who are the victims of most violent crimes.
I hope that the day will eventually come, when American school children can do more that recite the credo "justice for all", but can also look around them and see justice for all people regardless of wealth, fame, education, status or race.
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posted
Rabbit, I agree with you, but I must point out that often the law enforcement officers are just as frustrated that so many inner city crimes go unsolved, yet they are unable to solve many of them because they don't get the cooperation of the community.
My husband isn't in law enforcement, but even as a firefighter, if he rolls up on someone injured in the inner city and asks the dozens of witnesses standing around "What happened?" he's met with hostility at worst and indifference at best.
Most cases are broken open in the first 48 hours by witness testimony or information given to the police by family members and friends. When no one, not even the family will talk to the police and the community is completely hostile and will not assist the investigation, it's hard to get things done.
I understand that there is inequity, and that people deserve our best efforts for obtaining justice no matter where they live or what their race or socio-economic status is, but we need to be fair and recognize that many times, it's not entirely the fault of the law enforcement community.
I was a cop's daughter, and I know many of them and I've never, ever met an investigator who didn't want to solve the cases he was given. Never. But I've met many who expressed frustration that the community wouldn't aid their investigation and in some cases worked against them.
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The Rabbit: I agree that this is a highly admirable goal and wish.
I think some significant progress has been achieved in this regard since 1981 (25 years ago). I think its significant that the justice system she was analyzing was within the state of Louisiana. It would be interesting to know if Louisiana is still unfair in which races it meets out justice to.
All I can say is we must have gone somewhere because only 12 years ago in 1994 a black man commited murder (and DNA evidence proved it) and yet we found him innocent in a court of law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._J._SimpsonPosts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:While I find relief in the fact that JonBenet's murderer may have been arrested and hope that this will bring some closure for her family. I am deeply saddened that we continue to have a different commitment to justice for the rich, the famous, and the white, than we do for the poor minorities who are the victims of most violent crimes.
I have one year's worth of anecdotes only, but, in a small Virginia city, I saw more prosecutions of murders of black victims than white, far out of proportion of the population. I don't know how it related to the proportion of victims by race though.
I do know that there are many officers and prosecutors who take every killing in their jurisdiction seriously and dedicate long hours to finding and prosecuting the murderers.
That says nothing about whether what you described happens or not, and I know that it does happen in some places. Some is undoubtedly caused by people caring more about the murder of whites than blacks. But there are many places where this is not true.
There is also a lot of difficulty investigating murders of blacks because of the distrust between many blacks and police. Without going into how deserved this is, it is a real problem and prevents police officers who genuinely want to find the murderer from doing so.
Finally, though, I am heartened to see others discussing crime prevention and prosecution as a civil rights matter. Too often, this is ignored. Justice Thomas's dissent in Morales is good reading on how civil liberties depend on good law enforcement.
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I hope that you are all correct and that things have improved in the past two decades.
Dag, I don't know what the specific rates are for Virgina, but nation wide Blacks are 6 times more likely to be murdered than whites (2004 data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics).
I also noted reading through the Bureau of Justice statistics that 42.7% of black murder victims are felony murders where as 54.8% of white murder victims are felony murders. On the flip side, 59.3% of black murderer, were charged with felonies but only 39.1% of white murderers were charged with felonies. This is despite the fact that 94% of black's murdered are murdered by blacks and 86% of whites were murdered by whites.
I can only see one way to resolve these statistics, and that is that blacks who murder whites are far more likely to be charged with felony than either whites who murder whites or blacks who murder blacks. The data strongly suggest that the racial biases that existed in the 1980s have not been eliminated from the system.
On an encouraging note, during the last half of the 90's the murder rate for blacks dropped dramatically.
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BlackBlade, This is a genuine case on an exception that proves the rule. The real issue in criminal justice is not primarily race, it's poverty. Poor criminals or every variety are far more likely to be convicted than wealthy or middle class criminals. The uber-wealthy, rarely ever go to prison. While OJ is black, he is (or perhaps was) also extremely wealthy, wealthy enough to by the criminal justice system.
I think its also true, although I have no statistics, that racism in America is very tightly linked to poverty. We no longer have blanket prejudice against all people of color, our prejudices are more refined to poor people of color.
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quote:I also noted reading through the Bureau of Justice statistics that 42.7% of black murder victims are felony murders where as 54.8% of white murder victims are felony murders.
Could you link this? The terminology is critical to understanding this.
"Felony murder" is death that results from the commission of a felony. For example, accidentally pulling the trigger while robbing a bank is murder, even without intent to kill. It's a very precise term.
There is no form of "murder" which is not a felony, although there are misdemeanor homicide crimes in some or most states.
So I'm not sure what you mean when you say "42.7% of black murder victims are felony murders."
It could mean "42.7% of black homicide victims die in crimes that result in felony murder charges." Even this interpretation wouldn't account for manslaughter, also a felony.
Or, it could mean ""42.7% of black murder victims die during the commission of felonies and their deaths are prosecuted as the crime called 'felony murder.'" The second interpretation, which seems more likely to me, does not tell you how many black homicide victims die in crimes that are later charged as felonies.
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quote:I think its also true, although I have no statistics, that racism in America is very tightly linked to poverty. We no longer have blanket prejudice against all people of color, our prejudices are more refined to poor people of color.
This plays right into something I've long thought - and perhaps it might be food for another thread - that what we suffer from the most in this country is not racism but classism.
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If so, the line marked "felony murder" almost certainly does not mean what I think you think it means. The heading "Circumstances" seems to refer to the events of the crime, not the type of charges. The rest of the line items under that heading (drug related, argument, etc.) bears this out. This conclusion is strengthened by the lack of any other description that could apply to charge in the entire table.
So I don't think the table (if it is the one you referred to) supports your conclusion, and the sentence "On the flip side, 59.3% of black murderer, were charged with felonies but only 39.1% of white murderers were charged with felonies" seems to not be supportable at all from the table.
There is much evidence that the death of a white victim is far more likely to result in capital punishment. I don't know how generalized this effect is across the various grades of homicide.
posted
Has anyone seen the movie "Little Miss Sunshine?" (it is fabulous)
I saw it last night, and I thought, wow, how strange that this movie(about a child's beauty pageant)(on the surface) came out at the same time that this man was caught. In the midst of tears of laughter, I kept seeing her face. It was a bit surreal. The movie showed some little girls who were all dolled up as mini adults, just like JonBenet was, and I thought, how sad, on so many, many levels, this whole story was.
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