quote:I think that finding a private place, or using a blanket *is* a realistic expectation.
I believe this is the heart of our cultural difference. I can accept that this is the norm where you live. But please accept that this is not the norm where I live.
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Don't often see women breastfeeding around here, but it wouldn't be too out of the ordinary if it did happen.
C-sections are considered a last resort here as well. Considering how dangerous they are, I'm surprised they are considered the preferred option ANYWHERE.
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quote:I think that finding a private place, or using a blanket *is* a realistic expectation.
I believe this is the heart of our cultural difference. I can accept that this is the norm where you live. But please accept that this is not the norm where I live.
What you quoted is out of context. If you review the entire post, it's ver clear that, to accurately reflect the meaning without the quote Scott responded to, it needs to have an implict clause added:
"I think that finding a private place, or using a blanket *is* a realistic expectation if one wants privacy.
I still don't see how that's unrealistic, and none of the explanations given so far seem to have dealt with the realisticness of the expectation in the context of a mother who wants privacy.
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posted
Speaking of cultural differences, how pathetic is the individual that gawks at or objects to public breast feeding because of its "sexual nature." How desparate/repressed do you have to be in order for that responce to kick in?
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I think there is a level of difference between pretending someone isn't there and refraining from staring, gawking, making comments/judgements etc. I don't think that the latter should be unreasonable to expect in polite society. "Out of the ordinary" may be a reason people stare; it is not an excuse to do so.
I think that people have a right to decide what is best for their child within certain limits regarding abusive situations and that, unless those decisions directly impact them, they should stay out of it. We don't get to approve or disapprove whether one breast or bottle feeds.
I do think that the militant behavior of some breast feeding advocates is at least partly a result of a deliberate movement to get people to stop breastfeeding. This is especially troublesome in developing countries and among poor people who have been encouraged to become dependent and spend money on formula rather than breastfeed.
This in no way excuses the bahavior of anyone accosting a mother and baby.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Speaking of cultural differences, how pathetic is the individual that gawks at or objects to public breast feeding because of its "sexual nature." How desparate/repressed do you have to be in order for that responce to kick in?
I think is has nothing to do with being desperate or repressed. I think it has much to do with having been conditioned to view the breast as a sexual object and with being unaccustomed to breast feeding.
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quote:I think there is a level of difference between pretending someone isn't there and refraining from staring, gawking, making comments/judgements etc. I don't think that the latter should be unreasonable to expect in polite society. "Out of the ordinary" may be a reason people stare; it is not an excuse to do so.
I'm not sure what this is in reply to or if it's just a general comment.
I think it's clear that Scott would agree with this statement. He said something very similar a page ago.
What I don't get is the hostility I'm sensing to Scott's comments (not from your particular post, though). It's seems far greater than that which would have occurred if this were only about different definitions of "privacy."
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What do you call that area around and including the nipple on a man when not refering to the whole chest or to just the muscle?
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I've never seen a formula ad that didn't explicitly state breast feeding is better for the baby. The hospitals push breastfeeding, the nurses push it, the pediatricians push it, and people who don't do it like me are treated badly. I'm curious, what else should be done? Do the breastfeeding advocates want formula outlawed or something? I mean Good gracious, I fail to see what other pressures could have been put on me besides out and out holding me down and forcing the baby to my breast.
I do think how you were treated was despicable, Belle. No,I don't think formula should be banned, but I do think all sampling and advertising of formula should be banned.
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Dag, I'm glad you didn't mean my particular post - I was just trying to narrow down where the misunderstanding might be.
edit to add:
I also think that saying "one should expect" that people will" do something is different from saying "you should find it acceptable" that people do something. And that may be where we are getting hung up.
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quote:I do think all sampling and advertising of formula should be banned.
I have too much respect for the principle of free speech to support something like this.
Advertising for formula should be honest, but it seems awfully paternalistic to ban truthful speech on the subject.
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It's interesting how this thread went a totally different direction than the one I was thinking.
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quote: I think is has nothing to do with being desperate or repressed. I think it has much to do with having been conditioned to view the breast as a sexual object and with being unaccustomed to breast feeding.
I think it absolutely has something to do with being desperate and repressed, if not puerile, to *gawk* because there is conditioning out there in society that *staring* at women's boobies, at anyone different from whatever someone is used to in BFE, is low and uncultured.
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posted
I know this is waay late in the conversation (somehow I missed it the first time around) but Belle: Hopefully you don't take this as the universal view of LLL. I'm sad that you had such a negative experience with the organization, but I think it varies a lot from person to person and place to place.
I like to think that my family members who are involved do their best to be supportive of a mother's right to choose either route. They're obviously going to try to push breastfeeding because they believe it to be the superior answer, but if their techniques of persuasion were enough to make you cry, then obviously something isn't right.
Just realize that not everyone in the organization is a "breastfeeding nazi."
secondly, I just want to put in one more story to point out regional differences, because my sister's experiences seem to have been almost the opposite of yours in terms of hospital responses: All of them have been strongly encouraged by hospital staff to a) formula feed, b) avoid midwifes at all costs, and c) steer away from completely natural childbirth (no drugs)
So it definately varies from individual to individual and from place to place (largely why the "cultural norms" are hard to define for the whole country).
Lastly, while this doesn't excuse any poor treatment you and/or your friends have recieved from LLL members, do remember that they are volunteers, and usually busy mothers themselves. so if you get curt replys on the phone with one of them they might just be in a bad mood, very busy etc... (again, not an excuse for making you feel like a bad mother, but an explanation for those that might not know otherwise)
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: On the bus? I don't think so.
That's nice. So exactly how was my daughter supposed to eat before my first class? And if you suggest getting even less sleep than I was getting at that point, I will laugh derisively.
Belle, I think the way you were treated is horrific and despicable. Breastfeeding should be encouraged by hospitals, NOT pushed down anyone's throat. And strangers (or even most people who know you, unless they know you very well!) should be keeping their opinions to themselves.
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Wake up earlier? I don't eat or get dressed on the bus either. People don't do their hair on buses - it's a small place. There's no where to go. Our buses don't allow people to eat, play music, and they ask that perfume not extend beyond the person. It's being trapped in a car with someone - leaving the premises is not an option.
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I would much rather be aware that a woman is breastfeeding on the bus than have the child crying because it wants to be fed. And even if the mother did feed it before they left home, that doesn't mean it isn't going to want to be fed again 20 minutes later. I also consider breastfeeding in public less disruptive, in general, than talking on a cell phone in public.
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I was thinking the same thing, a breastfeeding baby on a bus is a lot less noticeable than a crying/hungry/fussy baby. But I've never actually been on a bus, so I don't know how crowded they are.
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I can't believe I'm defending behavior that occurred 12 years ago, but sure.
I was a half-time student (had been full-time, cut back the quarters I was bringing a baby in with me), and mother of a newborn. I had to take two (sometimes three) buses to school every morning to get to my 9 am class. I was getting practically no sleep.
It took about an hour to get to school, and I generally had about 5-10 minutes before class to get me and the baby settled, if the bus didn't get us there late that day.
I took a seat in the back, and I covered up with a receiving blanket.
And seriously, Katie, I am this close to telling you that maybe you just won't understand until you have one of your own. And I hate that sort of comment!
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quote:I took a seat in the back, and I covered up with a receiving blanket.
This, I think, makes it okay. If no one is sitting next to you. If it is a crowded bus, then I think the fellow passengers need to have their space and comfort zones respected more than the mother needs to breastfeed in public.
It's like a cell phone, or kissing in public. Sometimes its necessary, but there are ways to do it that will minimize the intrusion on other people. A cell phones is an auditory intrusion, breastfeeding is a visual and comfort zone intrusion, and kissing can be all three. That doesn't mean those things need to be completely verboten, but all efforts must be made to minimize the intrustion on other people.
If it isn't possible to avoid that intrusion on other people, then it shouldn't be done.
"Is breastfeeding in public okay?" Sometimes, if it is done discreetly and with a buffer zone of at least a few feet from other people.
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In Katie's defense, no matter what her opinions are/were, I have never seen her be less than polite to a breastfeeding mother. Including me. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: If it is a crowded bus, then I think the fellow passengers need to have their space and comfort zones respected more than the mother needs to breastfeed in public.
That is the wrong equation. The other side of the equation is not the mother, it's the hungry baby. And if a hungry baby doesn't win over someone being a little bit uncomfortable, then something is seriously wrong.
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People removing clothing is uncomfortable - it isn't fair to insist that someone be forced to sit next to someone who's not completely dressed on their way to work when there's no escape.
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Who is removing clothing? Receiving blanket over, blouse pulled up slightly (under cover, mind), bra unhooked (under cover of shirt and blanket).
You never adjust your bra strap on the bus?
And I repeat, this is about feeding a hungry baby.
Oh, and at no point of this was I not about twice as clothed as the average female on the bus.
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But it's not comfortable to sit next to a baby screaming her head off, either. And I happen to think that the baby's need to be fed does need to trump someone's discomfort with breastfeeding. I'm always completely dressed when I breastfeed, so I'm not quite sure I get that.
I also agree that, at least in the summer, I ALWAYS have more clothes on than half the young women in L.A. More than half. Probably most.
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It is not JUST about feeding a hungry baby. I think the advocation of that idea is what I'm resisting - the baby's existence does not take away the need to consider the other riders.
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Okay, but showing consideration by doing it as discreetly as possible and trying to take an empty seat if available is just about all you can do without depriving a child of food. So you are as considerate as possible while doing what you have to do, then what? Is that acceptable? Or do you think one should let the baby cry?
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I speak as someone who's never had a baby, so I'm asking this in all honesty, without attempting to argue: is there no other way to stop a baby from crying than feeding?
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You could explain the need for more socially acceptable behavior. But, that takes aproximatly 30 years to have noticable results.
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quote:Originally posted by Megan: I speak as someone who's never had a baby, so I'm asking this in all honesty, without attempting to argue: is there no other way to stop a baby from crying than feeding?
posted
When they're hungry, no. Especially if they're the kind who won't take pacifiers. Even if they like pacifiers, they often won't take one if they're really hungry (and they can be really hungry ten minutes after they eat, it all depends.)
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quote:Originally posted by Artemisia Tridentata: You could explain the need for more socially acceptable behavior. But, that takes aproximatly 30 years to have noticable results.
To answer the question, it depends. If the baby is just generally unhappy, maybe. If the baby is actually hungry (and babies generally need to be fed approximately every 2-3 hours, and sometimes more often), then it is unlikely that anything else will work for more than a few minutes. And with some kids, not even that long. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think this does come back to the topic's title. As I mentioned before, in an earlier day, women were not expected to be in public with new babies. To take a new baby out was proof you were an unfit mother. So this wasn't even an issue for our parents and/or grandparents.
Today, more people live away from extended family and the extra support that entails. By necessity, women have to take their babies out in public, to shop, to go to school, even to work, in some instances. Certainly not something our grandfathers had to deal with...
My problem with the objections that are being brought up here - and we may be talking past each other, I don't know - is the idea that a nursing mother has more of an obligation not to offend a passerby (or co-worker, or in my case, my father-in-law ) than she has to provide and care for her baby. That she should be excluded from socialization/public transportation/school/workplace/church attendance/or whatever for the 25% of her life (30 minutes out of every 2 hours is not an unrealistic expectation for feeding a newborn) for the months that her child is breastfeeding.
New mothers are already dealing with a lot - sleep deprivation, recovering from childbirth, sometimes dietary restrictions, possible sibling jealousy, learning and teaching the baby to nurse, post-partum depression - or at least adjusting to MAJOR lifestyle changes... The last thing she needs is to be relegated to a closet or her bedroom for the first 6 months of her baby's life.
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quote:That she should be excluded from socialization/public transportation/school/workplace/church attendance/or whatever for the 25% of her life (30 minutes out of every 2 hours is not an unrealistic expectation for feeding a newborn) for the months that her child is breastfeeding.
I've been trying to figure out what was bothering me! Thank you! That's it!
Although to be fair, as they get older they breastfeed less. And sometimes are content with a different snack once they get old enough for that (but sometimes not.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Well, when they're young, they need to eat a lot, and generally crying is an indication that they're not happy (they can't talk yet, so they cry). Usually they're hungry. Sometimes they want to be changed. Sometimes they're in pain. But that's most of what the really little ones cry about. And eating, and breastfeeding or bottle feeding is a comfort thing too. The baby gets held, and usually the milk is warm, and they calm down, skin-to-skin contact, that sort of thing.
Also, I would call it a "man boob" if he's out of shape and "pecs" if he is in shape. And I must say, I find attractive men with their shirts off quite sexual. Much more sexual than breasts. And women make up over 50% of the population, so if you're young and in shape, put those shirts back on! Prurient thoughts! Gosh! WaterWorld life guards . . . beach volleyball . . . swim meets . . . k, I have to go take a cold shower.
And I also have to say that while I am not often around nursing mothers and therefore find myself somewhat startled sometimes when I realize a baby is getting lunch somewhere close by, I would much, much rather that the child is fed and not crying than to have any discomfort on my part take precedence over a child's wellbeing.
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quote:Originally posted by Megan: I don't think anyone was implying that at all, maui babe.
Maybe not directly, but that's really what it comes down to... if a woman can't nurse her baby where-ever she happens to be, she really CAN'T go anywhere. Of course, there are places that a new mother really shouldn't take her baby, but we shouldn't make even more obstacles than already exist, just so that mature adults don't get uncomfortable.
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quote:Originally posted by Samarkand: ... I would much, much rather that the child is fed and not crying than to have any discomfort on my part take precedence over a child's wellbeing.
posted
I don't think you can even boil it down to that, really. To me, it seems to be a private thing; kq even mentioned "giving the mother and baby their privacy." I don't object to anyone feeding their baby anywhere, but I also reserve the right to be uncomfortable when witnessing a private interaction. I also think that it's unreasonable to expect everyone to be comfortable witnessing that. Dismiss it as cultural conditioning if you like, but some people do feel uncomfortable witnessing it. So, as a result, my feeling is, mothers should go ahead and breastfeed as they need to, but don't be offended if others are uncomfortable.
(Edit: I'm a little unnerved to find myself on the same "side" and Kat, Scott R., and Dagonee. Very odd. )
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Megan: I don't think you can even boil it down to that, really. To me, it seems to be a private thing; kq even mentioned "giving the mother and baby their privacy." I don't object to anyone feeding their baby anywhere, but I also reserve the right to be uncomfortable when witnessing a private interaction. I also think that it's unreasonable to expect everyone to be comfortable witnessing that. Dismiss it as cultural conditioning if you like, but some people do feel uncomfortable witnessing it. So, as a result, my feeling is, mothers should go ahead and breastfeed as they need to, but don't be offended if others are uncomfortable.
(Edit: I'm a little unnerved to find myself on the same "side" and Kat, Scott R., and Dagonee. Very odd. )
I don't imaging that it is the discomfort that is offensive, but sometimes the way people act on that discomfort. Glaring, trying to make rules against it, being generally rude about it (thus bringing even more attention). No one can completely control how they feel, but they can control how they act.
Not that I can imagine most of the posters here doing those types of things...
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I have to say that I was never offended by people being uncomfortable with breastfeeding. Amused perhaps, and certainly puzzled, but never offended.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I don't imaging that it is the discomfort that is offensive, but sometimes the way people act on that discomfort. Glaring, trying to make rules against it, being generally rude about it (thus bringing even more attention). No one can completely control how they feel, but they can control how they act.
posted
Heh. See, to me, if someone is breast-feeding publically in order to make a point or in order to "help me get over being uncomfortable," that makes me even more uncomfortable. Leave my comfort level alone.
Seriously, as long as I'm not hindering anyone from doing anything, why should my comfort level even be an issue? No need to "improve" me.
Edit: Ah. See, all I do in my discomfort is find another place to be.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I don't imaging that it is the discomfort that is offensive, but sometimes the way people act on that discomfort. Glaring, trying to make rules against it, being generally rude about it (thus bringing even more attention). No one can completely control how they feel, but they can control how they act.
Thanks boots.. this is exactly how I feel. I'm offended by many things in my life ... overt PDAs, skimpy clothing, foul and profane language in public places... I don't remember ever reacting in a negative way. I think what's important is that if you're offended by something, it's really only your problem.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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That is because you are nicer than most people. The comfort level of people becomes an issue because people who are not as nice as you (most of us, that is) do think that their comfort trumps a baby's. And will try to hinder people. So folks do have an interest in addressing the comfort thing.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Was that to me, Megan? Because that's NOT what I meant by educate. Not at all! I just meant that I'd be happy to have a conversation with someone who was nonplussed (have done so, in fact), and explain why I consider feeding my baby (in public notwithstanding) an important thing to do.
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) than she has to provide and care for her baby. That she should be excluded from socialization/public transportation/school/workplace/church attendance/or whatever for the 25% of her life (30 minutes out of every 2 hours is not an unrealistic expectation for feeding a newborn) for the months that her child is breastfeeding.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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