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Bear in mind that not all the discomfort/embarassment stems from the eroticism/liscentiousness of bare breasts. I've said several times already that that certainly isn't the source of my discomfort.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Isn't it a good thing to expose more 'real' breasts to the popular sight so that the breast is demystified?
If you actually mean "expose" literally, then I would say no. As I said before, I think it is perfectly possible (and IMO preferable) to nurse publicly without exposing much, if anything.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I think most women would agree to be operated on if their uterus ruptured. I don't think you'd have a problem there.
IIRC, verbal consent can overrule a previous refusal of a procedure-- and verbal refusal can overrule a previous written consent, no?
Crowswife, you might find that some hospitals are allowing VBAC, and you may also find that it helps to have a doctor who is strongly for VBAC (if you are a good candidate, of course) on your side. Sometimes that can avoid the situation entirely, if you have a doctor who is willing to be on your side when you go to the hospital administrators.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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First of all, no one has stated that public breast feeding is erotic or salacious. Let's remove that idea immediately, before someone starts to think people actually believe it.
I think it has more to do with modesty and propriety, myself. On Italian public beaches, small children are allowed to bathe nude. On American beaches, that's a no-no. It's not because toddlers are being sexualized, but because Americans have different standards of modesty and propriety. Perhaps at the beginning of the 20th century, strictures of dress were assigned because of sexual mores, but I think that has faded. Now, it's just part of the culture. It has become what we're comfortable with.
I don't think the Italian ideas of modesty are necessarily healthy, either. (Children running around naked on the beach-- meh. Advertisments selling naked women/Panasonic radios...not good, IMO)
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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modesty for the sake of modesty.... I can't argue against that.
quote: I think it has more to do with modesty and propriety, myself.
I am confused what your argument is to support not breast feeding/exposing breasts in public if it's not based on salaciousness. As I mentioned to Rivka above, I can't argue against modesty for the sake of modesty.
quote: I don't think the Italian ideas of modesty are necessarily healthy, either.
Why?
Look, if all this comes down to 'because God says so', fine. I understand that there are certain things in a religion that come from God that aren't understood and that must be followed regardless. If this is one of those times, then no problem. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Edited to add, in the throes of orgiastic precision:
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: They can't overrule you once you're in labor, nor can they turn you away. They must respect your treatment choices and if you explicitly refuse a procedure (including a c-section), if they then perform it they are committing assault and battery.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: IIRC, verbal consent can overrule a previous refusal of a procedure-- and verbal refusal can overrule a previous written consent, no?
For sure! I was just going all JonBoy on my Dagonee about precision in the language. In extreme cases, even when verbal consent is not obtained (or obtainable), there is a presumption of consent to care despite prior refusal (I think).
That is to say, if husband goes to to cafeteria for a lemonade and wife goes into sudden shock, there are exceptions made room for in the law.
[/nitpicky ]
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Edited to add: I know the nitpicking is annoying, and I will strive to work on it more. Trust me, it is at least as difficult to be me (in all my stolid, perseverating, windbaggish ways) as it is to interact with me. And Heavens! Think of my husband's life.
*grin He has perfected this owlish look that usually precedes a cut-throat dressing down of my many imprecisions in the language. It is utterly silencing, more deadly than a dog's cheese fart. I crumple.
quote:I am confused what your argument is to support not breast feeding/exposing breasts in public if it's not based on salaciousness.
I'm not sure what you mean by salaciousness-- and I don't NOT support breast feeding in public. (The reason I say that is because several times in this conversation, people have misunderstood my stance)
I'm telling you some reasons people who have objections to breast feeding in public have those reasons. It's not that breasts are evil, or that they think the human body is a work of the devil; it has (IMO) more to do with general ideas of modesty and propriety, which are not easily hammered down as being connected to sexual mores.
Why don't we get rid of modesty laws and just let people dress or don't dress how they like? If this is where the conversation is heading-- well, my religion maintains that modesty in dress is important in this life.
As for why I don't think Italian attitudes toward modesty are healthy, it's based on how I viewed the level of respect of Italian men toward Italian women, specifically in regard to the way those women dressed. I think that respect for the opposite sex coupled with modesty in both sexes engenders a continuation of that respect that isn't found when modesty is left out.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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Italian women are really hot and know how to dress.
quote: I'm not sure what you mean by salaciousness-- and I don't NOT support breast feeding in public. (The reason I say that is because several times in this conversation, people have misunderstood my stance)
A titillating fashion.
quote: I'm telling you some reasons people who have objections to breast feeding in public have those reasons. It's not that breasts are evil, or that they think the human body is a work of the devil; it has (IMO) more to do with general ideas of modesty and propriety, which are not easily hammered down as being connected to sexual mores.
I get that modesty is being given as a reason.
quote: Why don't we get rid of modesty laws and just let people dress or don't dress how they like? If this is where the conversation is heading-- well, my religion maintains that modesty in dress is important in this life.
O.K.
quote: As for why I don't think Italian attitudes toward modesty are healthy, it's based on how I viewed the level of respect of Italian men toward Italian women, specifically in regard to the way those women dressed. I think that respect for the opposite sex coupled with modesty in both sexes engenders a continuation of that respect that isn't found when modesty is left out.
Well, Italian women are hot and know how to dress. I know it's cliche to say, but I've seen Italian women and it's for true!
As to the whole respect thing, I haven't observed this, but I respect that you have.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote: Where I begin to draw the line is the idea that mothers have some inherent right to embarass everyone around them in order to nurse.
I think there are points at which people's embarassment is not worthy of respect. If somebody is embarassed by the sight of an interracial couple holding hands, I think we can all agree that is not as important as the couple's right to hold hands. Being embarassed about breastfeeding strikes as bordering on the absurd. I think that breastfeeding is one of the points at which people's embarassment is not as important as the ability to do the act. The problem lies with those that are embarassed not the breastfeeding mothers. The best way to remedy that is more exposure to breastfeeding.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: Well, part of it is that if you're only calling "I want to have a c-section for absolutely no reason" maternal request c-sections, you're probably only getting part of the story. I personally have chatted with three women whose doctors said, "You have this very small risk factor. I'm offering you an option for c-section, but it's totally your choice. Most women with this have no problems, but some do." Two said they wanted a vaginal birth, one said she took the c-section. The one who said she took the c-section said that she didn't really choose it because of the risk factor-- she chose it because she was told by a friend that her c-section recovery was easier than her vaginal birth recovery. So I think the numbers may be somewhat higher than reported of people who ostensibly are having it because they're at risk for something, but really have additional motivations.
Of course, all three moms and babies did perfectly fine. So I guess they were all right to do what they did. But the one who had a c-section would probably also have been okay having a vaginal birth-- but now she'll never know because the hospitals in her area "don't allow" VBAC. (If a hospital tried to pull that on me, I'd kick their butt. But then, I don't intend to have a c-section, and if I did there are three hospitals nearby that currently are okay with VBAC, and my doctor is in favor of it, so hopefully I won't have to.)
We just went through a similar ordeal recently. Our newest child, born Sept 16, was a scheduled C-section. My wife really wanted to do a VBAC. Our first was vaginal, the second was an emergency C-section, the 3rd was classified as "high risk pregnancy" so was a scheduled C-section. The medical system were are now in has extremely resistant to doing a VBAC this time around.
Statistically, the probability of problems are less with VBAC's, but if there is a problem they tend to be worse. I'm convinced that the rationale behind repeat C-sections is lawyer driven. The potential liability with VBAC, looks like too big a risk to the legal guys. Medicine is a business, and like all businesses, decisions are driven by money.
Next time around though, my wife is going to stick to her guns. Legally, you cannot be forced into surgury you don't want, so if we have a 5th, it will probably be a VBAC.
Posts: 157 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:If somebody is embarassed by the sight of an interracial couple holding hands, I think we can all agree that is not as important as the couple's right to hold hands. Being embarassed about breastfeeding strikes as bordering on the absurd.
Well, that certainly is dismissive. You're comparing people who are embarassed by public breastfeeding (for whatever reason) to racists. Am I correct in assuming that, no matter the reason, embarassment at observing someone publically breastfeeding is never forgivable? This to me seems to be not, "Let breatfeeding mothers nurse where they like" (which I agree with), but "You should be ashamed of yourself for being embarassed. All mothers should breastfeed ostentatiously so that your shameful mind can be made right."
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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I think that the general public has to take some responsibility for the way obstetric medicine is practiced. Obstetrics is the most sued specialty in most (if not all) states and medical malpractice insurance premiums are unbelievable. People are so overly litigious nowadays and that is what shapes the legal influence on medicine. Sometime during the 80s or early 90's (no idea which), there was a rash of lawsuits against OBs for not doing C-Sections quickly enough. They were so costly that they changed the way obstetrics is taught in medical schools. It's not that doctors want to pad their bills or make tee time, it's that they were taught when in doubt, Section.
Also, I think that the rise in maternal age has to be taken into account, as well as advances in reproductive technology. There are more high-risk pregnancies than ever before and since those are more likely to require a C-Section, there are more C-Section performed.
I am very blessed to have a wonderful, talented OB who was courageous enough to let me risk my life to give Aerin more time in utereo. She knows that Andrew and I would never sue her (unless she operated on me drunk, etc.), so she was able to conduct my treatment with freedom and honesty. This, in turn, let me have total faith and trust in her. This is how the patient/doctor relationship should be, but I don't think it usually is.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:They were so costly that they changed the way obstetrics is taught in medical schools. It's not that doctors want to pad their bills or make tee time, it's that they were taught when in doubt, Section.
Yes, I've heard this before. (Of course, I've also heard from new OBs that that is not what they were taught.) I do think that a lot of it is hospitals and insurance companies not allowing doctors to practice the way they would like to-- which is a problem which extends far beyond obstetrics.
I don't think it's fair that the litigious ones get to ruin it for the rest of society.
Of course, as my mother said over and over, "Life's not fair. And then you die."
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Am I correct in assuming that, no matter the reason, embarassment at observing someone publically breastfeeding is never forgivable?
I don't think forgiveness is really an issue so much as what is a reasonable thing to ask of people. I wasn't trying to say that being embarassed by breastfeeding is the same as racism. I was trying to say that there are some points at which we draw the lines on how much we accomodate other people's comfort levels. I used the extreme example of racism because I thought that everybody would agree to it.
quote: You should be ashamed of yourself for being embarassed. All mothers should breastfeed ostentatiously so that your shameful mind can be made right.
I also didn't say this. I think that as others have said, the embarassment people feel is conditioned and is not based on something truly rational. I do think that being embarassed by breastfeeding is a limitation that it would behoove people to overcome, but that's a long way from saying people should feel ashamed. And with something like this I think it's a given that more exposure to it would make it normal and thus not embarassing. That's a lot different than your interpretation of my words.
I feel like you took my words in a much harsher light than they were intended. I apologize for using the racist example because I think it colored your interpretation of what I was saying. I should have said a mother caressing her child or somebody drinking out of a water bottle. Both would equally demonstrate my point.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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The racism comment bothered me because I've gotten those stares. Knowing where I live and knowing the kind of people I'll encounter, I'm still not going to miss out on holding my boyfriend's hand.
If you want to use that example, fine, but to me its a matter of degree. I doesn't bother me if I'm doing something so harmless as holding someone's hand...as long as long as someone's embarassment doesn't lead them to confront me. I can't control peoples' reactions. Sometimes they can't control themselves. If it is something unusual or something they've decided they disagree with, then they're in their right to feel uncomfortable. They can look away and I'd prefer if they didn't stare, but as long as they don't verbally or physically assault me, there's no damage done.
Were I to start making out with my boyfriend in public in someone's personal space, I'd agree that a line had been crossed and they are within their right to, politely, request me to stop. Especially if they don't have the option to move. Certain behavior goes past individual tolerance and into social unacceptance.
Would I say that a woman never has the right to brestfeed her child? Of course not. However, in my environment it is not something I see often. Being modest myself in term of how much skin I show in public, I can't help but feel uncomfortable knowing a woman has partly disrobed and has a child to her a breast.
As rare as it is for me to witness, when I have seen women breastfeeding in public it appears to me to cross a social boundary in regards to modesty. I have seen shirts casually half off with the breast exposed to the world. The fact that misguided teenage girls are often more covered, really sets off my alarms for public decency. The other women I've seen were covered with blankets and the only give away was the baby's feet sticking out. This, to me, is perfectly acceptable.
As I'm nonconfrontational and can usually escape the area pretty quickly, I've never had to ask a woman to cover herself near me.
I don't like the idea of women NEVER having the right to breastfeed when they need to. I also really dislike the idea that a person doesn't have the right to be uncomfortable, especially as long as they remain respectful of others despite their personal opinions.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: I feel like you took my words in a much harsher light than they were intended. I apologize for using the racist example because I think it colored your interpretation of what I was saying.
This is definitely a possibility. Your original language was fairly harsh, I think ("bordering on the absurd" was the phrase that got my hackles up, in conjunction with the racist example; like most other people, I don't like to have my responses dismissed like that). However, if you didn't intend to be that harsh, then apology accepted.
The substance of what I was objecting to (rather than the language, which certainly colored my response) was the idea that there should be some sort of breastfeeding "campaign" designed to normalize and remove any embarassment than any passersby might feel. Now, if you just mean people should go about their business as usual (breastfeeding when they need to), then I don't think we're actually in any disagreement. Not minding that someone else is uncomfortable or embarassed is one thing; deliberately making them uncomfortable embarassed is quite another (at least in my book).
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:modesty for the sake of modesty.... I can't argue against that.
I can. Leaving aside the issue of whether modesty is inherently a virtue, I'm reluctant to allow someone to define "modesty" for me.
Consider the far-right Muslim argument that the sight of a woman's hair drives men to uncontrollable lust, an assumption so widespread that people have attempted to use it to legally justify rape. Is a woman without a headscarf "immodest?" Is someone in a bikini inherently "immodest?"
I honestly don't think it's at all useful to let people get away with usages of the word "modesty" that imply that possession of other fashion mores is a sign of vanity or personal failing. And once we acknowledge that this use of "modesty" is cultural -- and completely dependent on context -- we realize that the context is ENTIRELY up to us.
I can choose to be offended by someone who doesn't share my worldview. I can choose not to be. Why, of all the opportunities I have to pick and choose what offends me, would I worry about being offended by personal fashion?
There are legitimate reasons to be concerned about fashion trends: what the trends suggest about society, situations where they legitimate create danger (although this latter is the excuse many Arab men use when justifying oppression, too), etc. But I don't hear anyone here suggesting that they're concerned about breastfeeding; they're just saying they consider it impolite. Perhaps the argument that new mothers shouldn't be out and about as often could lead to a danger-based argument against public breastfeeding, but otherwise we're just talking about perceived rudeness.
And at the end of the day, there are LOTS of behaviors which were once impolite, from talking on a cell phone in public to visiting someone without leaving a calling card, that are now commonplace. I don't think this is some historical erosion of civility from some hypothetical past full of better etiquette; I think it's a perfectly natural progression. Our grandparents still send us emails in ALL CAPS and don't understand why it's rude.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Well, I can't argue against a statement of faith because I know it's fruitless. Good luck to you, though. Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Precision in language, remember? You can argue against it; you just probably can't argue against it successfully.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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No one is saying that breastfeeding is inevitably impolite. I'm saying that forcing the generally public to be squished up against someone flashing their breasts shows a lack of consideration.
That's what I don't like - that the baby is the ultimate trump card. What about movie theatres? Should babies be brought into movie theatres because unless they can be, new mothers will hardly ever see a movie? What about nice restaurants? How nice does a restaurant have to get before diners can be annoyed at the three-year-old tossing mashed potatoes four feet away?
Like most private behaviors done in public, it can be done gracefully and it can be done disgracefully. Is it really a radical notion to say that there are inconsiderate ways to breastfeed in public?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I do mean that people should go about their business as usual and not flamboyantly breastfeed for the sake of normalizing it, so I don't think we're in disagreement.
I do apologize for my harsh language. I frequently come off as harsher than I intend. This is clearly something that I need to pay closer attention to.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Is it really a radical notion to say that there are inconsiderate ways to breastfeed in public?
Had anyone been arguing that people should feel free to breastfeed "extravagantly," I might understand why someone would feel the need to make this observation.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I think 'can' has been used to mean 'fruitless' in English, as in 'You can't fight city hall', but I agree that the word choice could have been better.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I'm finding it somewhat amusing that I just realized that almost every time I've been reading or posting on this thread, I've been breastfeeding.
You may all ignore me and continue.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Do you just type one handed, KQ, or do you have some kind of sling that holds the baby in place?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: Like most private behaviors done in public, it can be done gracefully and it can be done disgracefully.
Breastfeeding is not always a private act. At the risk of sounding like I was not attached enough, there were plenty of times the breastfeeding was how I put calories into one kid or another while I read a book, had some coffee, etc.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I frequently multi-tasked while nursing too... when you're spending that much time doing anything, it only makes sense - especially when you have older children to care for.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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Noemon-I found that a nursing pillow combined with a rolled up diaper under the boob-in-use left both hands free for typing.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Wouldn't it, Sharpie? But I have to say, I'd be worried about the effects of suction that strong.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Pffft. My kid's an air-swallower, she never gets good suction and has to burp every five minutes.
In any case, I figured out while Ems was very young how to hold the keyboard on the edge of my lap, prop the baby with the crook of my arm, and have both hands free for typing most of the time. It works pretty well until they're old enough to try to hit the keys while they're nursing, and/or kick the keyboard out of your lap. That's when you have to start the one-handed typing (which I also mastered while Ems was breastfeeding.) That works until the kid is so big you can't fit in the computer chair any more. (Although, our sofa bed is now in a place that I could pull it out and sit on that and use the computer if I wanted...)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Her baby is a trematode, and can remain attached through mouth suction alone.
I gotta tell ya, that would come in handy.
Or alternatively, you could grow a thick and luxuriant coat of fur--give the baby something to hang on to while they're nursing.
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