posted
Someone came to my door a few days ago peddling magazines. I didn't buy anything and probably flustered her with polite refusal, but I'm wishing now that I told her why.
I didn't do it because I don't like how it was set up - the pitch was not about the magazines. The pitch was the person selling it. The approach was designed to get the customer to like the seller so much they'd happily buy something to get that seller points toward something. It wasn't money directly. It was "points" and the peddler was amazingly ONE customer away from getting all the points needed! Isn't that great? Didn't I want to buy something in order to get this nice person a trip to Germany?
This is the second time I was approached. The first time I didn't know what was going on. It was in a mall, and the guy was very nervous. AT first I thought he was panhandling because of the sob story I was being given. When it finally came out that the way to help him was to buy magazines, it seemed a little sketchy that the pitch was all about the person.
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Kat, those groups are all over Northern Virginia. It's really not safe to support fundraisers like that unless you know the school firsthand somehow. The scams are legion.
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Kat-- I usually offer those people $10. I don't need the magazines they offer, and $10 cash usually gets them closer to their "goal" than selling $10 worth of magazines...but so far, no one has taken the $$.
posted
That's what it seemed like. I was a little indignant that the company was clearly capitalizing on the Pretty Young Thing appeal of the sellers.
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posted
I had one of those come by years, ago, but he kept talking about "votes" that he needed to become "president." I listened to the pitch, because it was a kid and because it was really confusing. It took him at least 5 minutes to even mention magazines, much less that the way you voted for him was by buying them. Crazy.
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posted
I don't necessarilly mind it so much. However, most times when I am bothered it is on my way to work. I can not afford to be late (military thing). That was when I worked on a shipyard, not a base. Next up is at my door. I work a minimum ten hours a day usually (sometimes less, more often more). An' it gets quite stressful. The LAST thing I want when I get home is to be bothered by ANYONE that I do not know. Sometimes, it applies to everyone. With the attitude that I know I can have, I need to relax when I get the time. I make time everyday. Hence, why I am usually quite calm these days. I am not a nice person when upset. I have had someone who worked for me that had been hit upside the head with a 2x4 (not by me. ), and their only reaction was "why did you do that?" (not even a flinch, and it was a hard hit). That one in specific always tried to be on my calm side. I don't get physical on people, but I do and can yell. He got the taste of that once.
For the record:
I apologized later, but he told me that he understood completely why and didn't blame me. In fact he was suprised I didn't write him up. Tell the truth, I should have. However, he was "my boy." I looked out for him, because no one else did.
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I welcome all religious representatives and political boosters inside, and offer them water, or a snack or something. I know what it's like to be out there, slogging away with a message most people don't want to hear and don't believe it when they do. [/QB]
Thats exactly how I am. Its why I still listen to the sales pitch before explaining why I am not interested.
I had JW's come to my door when I was a missionary. For some reason when they recognized that we were missionaries they just didnt even want to talk
I was tracting once and ran into JW's who were tracting the same street. They started yelling at us between doors, I walked over, got to know them. And then offered to stick to one side of the sidewalk and I would give them the other side. They thought it was a reasonable offer and we both had a pleasent evening.
Worst experience of my missionary life was an old lady who did not want to hear our message, we left and she decided to put on a warm coat, rugged shoes, and proceeded to walk ahead of us down the street going door to door warning the tenants that the Mormons were coming. I wanted to throw a rock SO bad, instead we jumped on our bikes went down the back road to the other end of the street and worked our way down and ran into her midway (damage control I suppose). The look on her face when she rounded the corner and saw us coming towards her was priceless.
We knocked on the doors that she had already played Paul Revere on anyway and some still let us in, others had already turned off their lights and gone upstairs, the light went about 5 minutes after we left.
I had a Canadian English teacher interupt my companion while he was talking to a Taiwanese man on the street and said "Hello! Junior!(obviously trying to mock the fact that missionaries go by "elder") he then broke out into quite decent Chinese and said to the man "These men are not Christians, and are bad men, nobody believes their mythologies!"
He then took off yelling "So long Junior!"
The Taiwanese said that he wanted to hear more about what would make that man act so rudely. Thanks I suppose is due that Candadian.
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As a missionary? You wanted to throw a rock at an old lady? I mean, yeah, I understand that what she was doing was annoying, but your response was...a desire for violence? Isn't that in conflict with the message you were trying to convey?
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posted
He didn't actually throw the rock. Being a missionary doesn't mean that suddenly you are no longer are tempted by anything. He was still a 20-yea-old doing something very difficult that he had a passion that someone was deliberately thwarting. Doesn't it make sense to be upset? Isn't it nice how he handled it instead of throwing the rock or causing a scene?
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As a missionary? You wanted to throw a rock at an old lady? I mean, yeah, I understand that what she was doing was annoying, but your response was...a desire for violence? Isn't that in conflict with the message you were trying to convey?
Did I not refrain from throwing the rock?
I am sorry for the thought of course, but I also acknowledge that I am not in fact Jesus yet, and I have to govern my thoughts still. I do in fact hope that one day I will be completely stoical about everything, but at the age of 24 I am not there.
If it makes you feel any better I conciously thought of a reason to admire EVERY single person who either refused to listen or rejected my message while I was tracting. It was the only way for me to keep my enthusiasm up and not sink into despair.
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posted
I am usually very disturbed by unexpected visitors. Partly because I almost never get them and mostly because I am utterly unprepared to have anyone in my apartment.
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posted
I am certainly glad he/you refrained from throwing the rock. I was just taken aback by the thought, that's all. I understand the annoyance; I don't understand the desire for violence. Yes, I know as primates we express our rage physically, but I think (hope?) that we reach a point where that desire ("I'm gonna beat the CRAP out of you!") is suppressed or eliminated. Maybe I'm being too optimistic (rather uncharacteristically, I must say) about humanity.
Maybe it's just because I don't understand the passion it must take to be a missionary, I don't know. Maybe it's because my first response to conflict is verbal rather than physical confrontation. Maybe I'm just reacting to the idea of the first response to conflict with an old lady being the desire to throw a rock.
To me, actually, the desire to cause a scene makes much more sense than the desire to throw a rock at an old lady.
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quote: I am usually very disturbed by unexpected visitors. Partly because I almost never get them and mostly because I am utterly unprepared to have anyone in my apartment.
Me too. The only knocks on my door that I get now are my landlord's, but even if my mom or my best friend randomly showed up at my door (both of whom would have to travel 1000+ miles to do so), I'd probably make them wait outside for at least an hour so I could clean. And they already know I'm a slob - the idea of strangers seeing my apartment on an average day is horrifying!
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posted
Having seen every woman on this forum get angry at others for one reason or another, I doubt it.
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I don't know. If that had been me, I'd probably have wanted to throw something at her too. Or more likely, I'd have been tempted to pray for a flock of birds to poop on her. My imagination tends to go more for the humiliating than the harmful in situations like that, I think.
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quote: o me, actually, the desire to cause a scene makes much more sense than the desire to throw a rock at an old lady.
You've never been so angry at someone screwing with you that you wanted to punch them in the nose?
Not really, no. Scream at them, sure. Wish them ill, maybe. Actually perpetrate the violence myself? Not that I can recall offhand.
Also, what rivka said.
Edit: And Nell, with the flock of birds pooping on her.
I was thinking that in my mind, at least, the desire for violent response should be mitigated somewhat by the fact that she's an old lady. This may very well not be rooted in logic, but then again the desire to throw a rock at someone isn't necessarily rooted in logic either.
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posted
I'd like to point out that even getting angry at that point is at some level a choice and that you can (and if you're a Christian most likely should) work on not making that choice. If you make the decision not to get angry, I find that, with practice and time, it becomes pretty easy not to. But then again, that's just me.
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posted
I'm not clear on what you mean by ideation. I don't mean where you actually picture doing it. I doubt Blackblade meant that, either. I meant feeling angry enough to punch, hit, whatever.
Now, of course, of course, of course, no one in their right mind would actually do that. Again, what I'm saying is being so angry that you want to.
Again, I point to this forum where, by my lights, the number of cruel women who inflict emotional distress on other members for whatever reason is about the same as men.
Now, we could argue that the ability to inflict emotional distress, pain, whatever on someone isn't the same as doing the same physically, and in some ways I might agree. However, I don't think that that is necessarily germane to the fact that pain is being inflicted out of anger or frustration, what have you, which is basiclly my point. The whole 'throw a rock', 'throw a punch' thing is really more of a metaphor for the level of emotion than any literal desire to chase someone down and physically hurt them.
If you say that women, most women, whatever don't feel this way when they are frustrated, or crossed, or what have you, then I'm sorry, I just don't believe it.
In many ways, having this discussion seems to me to be a bit surreal. It's difficult for me to believe that people on this thread actually think that BB literally *wanted* to throw a rock at that old lady. I can't help wonder if there isn't a little bit of passive-aggressiveness going on here.
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posted
Oh, I know plenty of women that associate violent ideation with getting angry. However, it is more prominent in men.
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quote: o me, actually, the desire to cause a scene makes much more sense than the desire to throw a rock at an old lady.
You've never been so angry at someone screwing with you that you wanted to punch them in the nose?
Not really, no. Scream at them, sure. Wish them ill, maybe. Actually perpetrate the violence myself? Not that I can recall offhand.
Also, what rivka said.
Edit: And Nell, with the flock of birds pooping on her.
I was thinking that in my mind, at least, the desire for violent response should be mitigated somewhat by the fact that she's an old lady. This may very well not be rooted in logic, but then again the desire to throw a rock at someone isn't necessarily rooted in logic either.
edit: Heres the logic behind THINKING that throwing a rock would do SOMETHING. If I threw the rock, even if I aimed to miss, the old lady would get scared and leave me alone (fine with me!) If it does hurt her, she can share in the misery she is causing and I'd feel better. If it hit her and knocked her out she stop making my life more miserable (I didnt need the extra help).
I never came CLOSE to causing violence on anyone my entire mission, though I did have a man (who was obviously insane, and quite large) get in my face and threaten to kill me several times, and he followed me around.
end of edit....
You have to realize that for a missionary yelling and making a scene is more or less just as bad as say throwing a rock. Though you are not physically restrained from doing so (at least in my mission they do this) they STRONGLY adjure you to not say anything Jesus would not say to people.
You in effect CANNOT say anything that is negative in a rude sense to anyone. Even criticism of one's companion must be done delicately and in a loving manner. It wears on many a missionary and sometimes they just lose control. I hate to see it happen, theres no way to vent the frustration outside of prayer, meditation, and exercise. Its a regiment that many just take time to get used to.
SERIOUSLY FOLKS! Did you not read about the horrible old lady who made my evening hell with her over the top hostility?! Why am I in the defendants seat!? HORRIBLY MEDDLESOME OLD WOMAN!
I'm only half serious, I have always enjoyed that on hatrack when something is universally considered bad, it often passes without mention while the more debatably right/wrong element is talked about.
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posted
Since I brought the topic up initially, I'll assume that it's me you're calling passive aggressive. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me.
No, I'm not trying to call him out, and I'm not trying to claim any moral superiority. I honestly don't feel the desire for physical violence when angry. I DO distinguish between inflicting physical pain and emotional pain; I actually think the latter is much worse. To that end, don't read any claim of moral superiority for women into what I'm saying, either.
I understand this:
quote:The whole 'throw a rock', 'throw a punch' thing is really more of a metaphor for the level of emotion than any literal desire to chase someone down and physically hurt them.
All I was trying to say is that "metaphor" took me aback. I saw a disconnect between an anger response that is a desire for violence and a mission to spread a faith of love and peace. I apologize if I came off as snotty or passive-aggressive. I just thought it was a really odd response to have in the given circumstance, and that may be due to my own anger response (which, by the by, in case you're curious, is primarily tears and verbal confrontation).
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quote:Originally posted by Megan: Since I brought the topic up initially, I'll assume that it's me you're calling passive aggressive. If I'm mistaken, feel free to correct me.
No, I'm not trying to call him out, and I'm not trying to claim any moral superiority. I honestly don't feel the desire for physical violence when angry. I DO distinguish between inflicting physical pain and emotional pain; I actually think the latter is much worse. To that end, don't read any claim of moral superiority for women into what I'm saying, either.
I understand this:
quote:The whole 'throw a rock', 'throw a punch' thing is really more of a metaphor for the level of emotion than any literal desire to chase someone down and physically hurt them.
All I was trying to say is that "metaphor" took me aback. I saw a disconnect between an anger response that is a desire for violence and a mission to spread a faith of love and peace. I apologize if I came off as snotty or passive-aggressive. I just thought it was a really odd response to have in the given circumstance, and that may be due to my own anger response (which, by the by, in case you're curious, is primarily tears and verbal confrontation).
I edited my previous post to answer your question.
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posted
Edit: So you did, though I didn't intend it as a question.
quote:Heres the logic behind THINKING that throwing a rock would do SOMETHING. If I threw the rock, even if I aimed to miss, the old lady would get scared and leave me alone (fine with me!) If it does hurt her, she can share in the misery she is causing and I'd feel better. If it hit her and knocked her out she stop making my life more miserable (I didnt need the extra help).
Storm, is it still impossible for you believe that BB literally *wanted* to throw a rock at that old lady?
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posted
It's probably more me than you, Megan. I wasn't pointing the finger at you with that statement so much as, let's say, venting my irritation at people in general on this forum and the way they seem to have no problem noticing the proverbial splinters for the beams.
My Bob, but there are some judgemental mofos on this forum.
Good night, everyone. I leave for the night.
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posted
Let's see. Assume for a moment that the old lady has lived in the neighborhood for a few years and knows (and likes) her neighbors. (I expect these are reasonable assumptions, but let me know if you disagree.) She considers missionaries an annoyance, and disruptors of the peace in her neighborhood. So being a neighborly sort, she goes to warn her neighbors.
My sympathy is with her.
Stormy, I am in no way claiming superiority of any kind. I just think that women, whether for reasons cultural, biological, or some combination thereof are more likely to say/think something like "I wished something terrible would happen to her" (possibly with more specificity) than to wish to do that harm directly. Not that they are any more or less likely to DO anything. Just that there is less like to be an association with them doing something directly and physically harmful themselves. (Women are actually far more likely to come up with subtle vengeance, including emotional torture. IMO and IME, natch.)
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posted
I don't see what the old lady did was at all bad, to be honest. Is there something wrong with her letting other people know you're coming around?
Storm, You may be thinking of someone else. I don't know that I've gotten angry on this forum for years now.
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posted
For the record, I was not trying to be judgmental (and certainly not a judgmental mofo), and I am sorry if I came off that way. I don't understand a desire for violence as a response to anger because it isn't the anger response I experience. I saw irony of a sort in a missionary responding to anger with a (naturally unfulfilled) desire to cause violence, but I also know stress does strange things to people's anger responses.
Good night, Storm.
I think I'm done for the evening, as well. Things to do, etc.
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quote:Originally posted by Megan: Edit: So you did, though I didn't intend it as a question.
quote:Heres the logic behind THINKING that throwing a rock would do SOMETHING. If I threw the rock, even if I aimed to miss, the old lady would get scared and leave me alone (fine with me!) If it does hurt her, she can share in the misery she is causing and I'd feel better. If it hit her and knocked her out she stop making my life more miserable (I didnt need the extra help).
Storm, is it still impossible for you believe that BB literally *wanted* to throw a rock at that old lady?
Megan...hmmm..how do I explain this?
The thought entered my head as a possible action, obviously my moral filter deemed the action BAD and so I discarded it.
Wanting to throw the rock would have entailed me actually having trouble deciding NOT to throw the rock, no difficulty was experienced. I'm spending considerable time explaining a thought that occupied probably at the most 4 seconds of my time.
I am having trouble seeing why "thinking" about saying something mean and nasty is NOT the same thing as "thinking" about taking action to deal with a problem.
I would have thought that because I immediately thought of a non violent way, completely polite way to deal with the problem demonstrated that I by nature am not a violent person.
Ill be honest Megan, I strongly disagree that I deserve criticism for allowing a thought to enter my mind. Do you honestly live your life and never experience a thought that dictates a course of action that you have to cross yourself to contain?
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: [QB] Let's see. Assume for a moment that the old lady has lived in the neighborhood for a few years and knows (and likes) her neighbors. (I expect these are reasonable assumptions, but let me know if you disagree.) She considers missionaries an annoyance, and disruptors of the peace in her neighborhood. So being a neighborly sort, she goes to warn her neighbors.
My sympathy is with her.
<throws internet rock> I'm not a missionary anymore! Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
BB, Could you explain why what the old woman did was bad? As far as I can tell, the only "bad" that is warrented is "bad for you". I don't see that she broke any reasonable standards of conduct other than that that.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: BB, Could you explain why what the old woman did was bad? As far as I can tell, the only "bad" that is warrented is "bad for you". I don't see that she broke any reasonable standards of conduct other than that that.
Does it being "bad for me" not make it bad in general? Me throwing the rock at her wouldnt be bad for anybody either except "bad for her."
edit: By that logic I mean.
How about this:
We get upset with the government for trying to use fear to control its population.
Granted I could not hear everything she said as she went door to door, all I picked up on was "Mormons are coming...<a bunch of other stuff>"
But how is what she was doing any different? If an old lady is running door to door saying "The Mormons are coming, quick shut your doors!" doesn't that imply that Mormons are something undesirable?
Bear in mind that most Taiwanese people honestly understand VERY little about what Mormons actually are.
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posted
Under the agreement not to post any material that is threatening, harrassing, or abusive. I know you were kidding, but in the context of this conversation I think your post is awfully close to the line, and if rivka feels that it crosses it I wouldn't argue with her.
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posted
No, you throwing a rock at her would violate a legal, moral, and general behavioral standards.
She went around letting her neighbors know you were coming. At the very most, her actions where equivilent to yours. She went around telling people information she thought was important.
I'd judge her actions as less intrusive than yours if we grant the assumption that instead of being a stranger there, she was engaged and familiar with the rest of the neighborhood.
The only thing I can see that she had done wrong was "make your life harder", which is a poor standard for any but the most egocentric codes of behavior.
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posted
I find it funny that in order to 'help people not be disturbed' one would actively go and potentially disturb individuals (by means of door or phone) to warn them of the possibility of them being disturbed by People I Don't Like.
Doesn't this seem ironic to anyone else?
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Ill take back throwing the internet rock.
Thank you.
I didn't have any specific "or else" in mind; I was fairly certain that given a moment to rethink you would have the good sense to withdraw the threat.
But ElJay is right, it is a violation of the TOS. And I didn't happen to find it amusing in the least.
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quote:Originally posted by Taalcon: I find it funny that in order to 'help people not be disturbed' one would actively go and potentially disturb individuals (by means of door or phone) to warn them of the possibility of them being disturbed by People I Don't Like.
Doesn't this seem ironic to anyone else?
As I've said, I don't like opening my door to strangers. At the same time, it's hard to just ignore it, in case it might be important. So to get a heads up from someone I know that missionaries are in the area would be vastly preferable to me to having the doorbell ring and not know in advance who it is. In this case, I would probably open the door and politely tell them I wasn't interested, but I would have much more peace of mind doing it than if I hadn't had the warning.
For other people, I don't see what harm she did. The people still had the option of talking to the missionaries if they wanted to. They just got a little longer to make their decision, instead of having to make it split second when they opened the door.
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quote: I find it funny that in order to 'help people not be disturbed' one would actively go and potentially disturb individuals (by means of door or phone) to warn them of the possibility of them being disturbed by People I Don't Like.
Doesn't this seem ironic to anyone else?
Not really. There's an entirely different relationship between neighbors and strangers out selling something (being it material, political, or religious).
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posted
Squicky, how would you react if she started calling people up and said, "I think you should know, there's a group of *whisper* black people */whisper* in the neighborhood. I just wanted you to know."
I don't think that would be something wrong per se, but I would be very suspicious of her motives. And, if such activity were aimed at me, it might make me momentarily mad.
I wouldn't have a real good reason for being mad, but it wouldn't be extremely unusual or necessarily indicative of a moral failing.
I'm pretty sure BlackBlade doesn't think throwing a rock was warranted.
quote:I don't see what harm she did.
I don't see the harm, but I do see her actions as likely indicative of a pretty nasty motive.
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quote: I find it funny that in order to 'help people not be disturbed' one would actively go and potentially disturb individuals (by means of door or phone) to warn them of the possibility of them being disturbed by People I Don't Like.
Doesn't this seem ironic to anyone else?
Not really. There's an entirely different relationship between neighbors and strangers out selling something (being it material, political, or religious).
And what if you did not know what a Mormon was, as is the case for many Taiwanese people? An elderly neighbor you trust runs down the street bangs on your door and says "The Mormons are coming! They are unsavory folk!" and you turn off your lights go upstairs and ignore the doorbell. She was effectively perpetuating fear.
You are right in a world where EVERYONE knows what a Mormon is, what she did does really no damage. That just is NOT the case in Taiwan or any where else in the world, otherwise missionaries would be unnecessary.
Its sad to see so many people painting the old woman as a paragone of virtue going out of her way to save the community from the rude, obnoxious Mormon missionaries. I happened to think that what I was doing, was a service that was of great value, so valuable it was more important then my personal comfort. I suppose I should glean my satisfaction from the Taiwanese people who love me for coming, not from the rude spiteful old women who seems to be the one YOU would all prefer to live next to.
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