posted
I have been freelance editing fiction from home lately, and the last novel I edited contained a lot of profanity. The F-word occured 88 times in the 350-page novel. One of the characters called another the C-word, and another character referred to a random guy who bugged him as an f-ing w*****. Every major character swears like this; it isn't just one person who has a potty mouth.
I told the authors the language might be off-putting to most readers, especially the last two examples. I wonder, though, if I might be naive as to how much people who aren't Mormon and don't live in Utah actually swear. What do you think? Do you think I was right to suggest a change?
(By the way, they decided not to go with my advice, which is their perogative, I guess.)
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I grew up outside of Utah, and I personally limit my profanity very much. I just find I can articulate what I am trying to say outside the realm of swear words better. But when talking about swear words I usually do not hesitate to say them unless my conversant might be offended.
My biggest qualm with Quentin Tarantino movies is that his characters swear too often. It takes away from the dialogue in my opinion to saturate it so much with those sorts of words. They just lose all meaning and sound primitive. I do not think it sounds realistic. People talking about interesting topics in the manner they do just doesnt seem accurate to me.
The only people who swear as much as his characters do were the high school morons at my school who thought I failed the ACT with them when I got a 36 and they got an 8.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I think it totally depends on their audience and if it's true to the characters in their book. For most puposes though, yeah, it's probably too much.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I'm not Mormon, and while I grew up in a Christian environment (for the most part), I've been around all sort of people thanks to public schools. I've heard some people who probably cuss as much as the characters you describe. I wouldn't say it's a majority though. Most people I know limit their cussing quite a bit.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I'm Mormon but not from Utah, and my family are all non-members, and I can tell you that most of them do not swear unless in extreme duress, it's considered impolite, and they also do not read books with excessive profanity; in my father's words, "The author must not be very educated if he doesn't know where cussing is and isn't appropriate. And if he's trying to make a point, he misses the mark by using it all the time like that. The only point he makes is that he's probably too young to know any better."
On the other hand, my very immature younger brother would probably find it hilarious to read something with so much swearing. So if your writer's target audience is very immature boys in their late teens/early twenties who find swearing "cool" or "hilarious", he's right on target.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Frankly, I was surprised how much profanity gets used daily in the places I've worked.
I always tried to keep it out of my vocabulary, as it always seemed unprofessional to me, but I've had ... let's see ... three bosses in the past year and a half, and all three have used the F-word in a conversation with me at one point. (My current editor is famous office-wide for swearing randomly at his cubicle walls when something goes wrong...we generally find it cute.)
For those who don't know, I live in Washington DC, on the East Coast, and am pretty removed from the Utah-Mormon axis . You could ask Katie how her experience has been here in town.
That said, there are definitely trends as to what is acceptable and what is not. The f-word, "shoot", "dang", and the full version of "sonova" are all pretty acceptable as long as they are not used in a sexual context (I've never encountered that in the workplace). The b-word by itself isn't tolerable, nor is the c-word Brinestone mentioned above.
Basically, if you use profanity to describe a situation gone awry, it's fine. If you're using it in any kind of sexual context, whether it be gender or the act itself, it isn't.
Posts: 1784 | Registered: Jun 2001
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It's a light romantic comedy with a bit of a moral at the end. The target audience is 20-something women. I quite liked it, except for the language.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I probably curse more than you do, but it actually would be off-putting to me. Because I have children and I teach, I do very little cursing in my day-to-day life, and when I see someone really filthy--not just dropping an F-bomb here or there, which I've done just today on sakeriver, but cursing every other word--it really does shock me.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Brinestone: It's a light romantic comedy with a bit of a moral at the end. The target audience is 20-something women. I quite liked it, except for the language.
Under those circumstances, it's probably not appropriate and would probably kind of throw me off.
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I agree, given the description of the novel - I would say it's pretty inappropriate.
If you told me it was about the daily life of a drug runner in inner city America, then I'd say it's probably fine. But a light romantic comedy? I would definitely be put off if I picked up that type of book and found that language in it.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Some of my housemates swear when playing videogames, very amusing swears at that. If someone's going to swear, the more amusing it is, the better. I've gained somewhat of a badmouth myself, but I know where to control it (ie here and when I'm around my parents).
I hate the c-word with a mad fiery passion.
The w----- one I got right away.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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Sometimes too mcuh cussing can put me off... It can get in the way. But, if done creatively, it's not so bad. I knew what the W word was, but perhaps I watch too many British things.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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If it was pitched towards fans of Kevin Smith, or Tarentino, or George Carlin, sure. Light comedy chick lit? Not a lot of cussing there, I don't believe.
I would ask the authors what audience they were going for, and then offer advice as to how best to reach that audience.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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88 times in 350 pages is an average of once every four pages. Obviously they're probably not evenly spaced out like that, but I thought I'd throw that in there for perspective. I've read and enjoyed books that use the f-word more than four times a page, on average, so honestly this doesn't seem like the book is just peppered with profanity, from my point of view.
That said, for a light romantic comedy with a moral at the end, they're probably alienating a large chunk of their audience. The w word I've never considered that bad, but I can't imagine the c word being appropriate in a light romantic quality. I'm sure someone could do it, but I can't imagine how. So I think you were right to draw their attention to it.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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(Chris, there is quite a bit of "edgier" chick lit out there now that has cussing in it, aimed at my demographic, I think. But from Brinestone's description, this probably isn't in that category.)
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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Wanker's a swear word? *used the word to see if it gets bleeped out*
Huh. Well I swear a lot. American, British, Sci-fi/Fantasy... whatever, I use em all. I don't even really notice I'm doing it anymore. But I live on a college campus, and so everyone does. It's just part of life and the language. It's used to emphasize a point, it's just slipped in, it's used as normal vocabulary. I think the primary ones used on campus are: "sex" with an f, "dung" with a c, "dung" with an s, son of a "female dog", "illegitimate offspring", "female dog", etc. *shrug* You get used to it, pick it up as slang. They're just words after all, and it's possible to say their meaning with out them, as I have just done. I mean, if the meaning of the words in and of itself isn't particularly offensive, why are they? I really have never understood quite what is so special about them.
I'm actually shocked that there are people around who are still offended by these words. I figured the '90s and modern TV would have wiped all remenants of shock value out of those words.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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I am, as you must know, not a Mormon; I do find, however, that one of the less endearing habits of Americans is to use swear words as punctuation. Really, it's not necessary to repeat 'what the f***' ten times, with various inflections; we understand that you are confused and amazed. A simple 'that's weird' would do. And it also wouldn't cheapen the swear words for those times when you actually need them to give some emphasis to your complaint. It's actually quite tiring to constantly have "this is important" markers thrown into a sentence that isn't really very important at all, even to the speaker. It's like constantly being told to sit up and pay attention, without any real content to pay attention to.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I've watched most of Sex and the City on DVD and usually wasn't offended. It's light chic lit commedy, and I would guess the author of the book you edited is trying to copy that.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:I figured the '90s and modern TV would have wiped all remnants of shock value out of those words.
On most tv shows, if there is swearing, it is used, as KoM indicated, for emphasis when things are important, shocking, or a character is in trouble. Occasionally there is a character who swears constantly, but usually only on shows on HBO. And most shows don't have more than one or two characters like that even if they do exist. So I don't get how "modern tv" is supposed to have desensitized these words to such an extent.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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You know, it took me awhile to figure out that the "c-word" you guys were referring to wasn't "crap." I was wondering why people were so worked up about it! On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I know what the W-word was. *shrug* It would be interesting to see a geographical study on commonly used profanity. You know, like the ones where they ask you what you call fizzy carbonated drinks and then group responses by area. Except less G-rated.
I find swearing a little off-putting when it's constant, but I've gotten pretty used to hearing it fairly often. I have no problem when my friends use it to express strong emotion now and then. Sounds like its use might be a bit out of line in the book you were editing. If I were reading some sort of hardcore military thriller novel, I'd expect that. In a light romantic comedy? Not so much.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:So I don't get how "modern tv" is supposed to have desensitized these words to such an extent.
Guessing you don't watch the same movies and Tv as folks around here do. That or I just stopped noticing when people used them and when they didn't. It's so rare to find anyone actually offended by them around here... It's just such a part of the language. I figured that whole "watch your mouth" kinda thing was a high school thing.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: 88 times in 350 pages is an average of once every four pages. Obviously they're probably not evenly spaced out like that, but I thought I'd throw that in there for perspective. I've read and enjoyed books that use the f-word more than four times a page, on average, so honestly this doesn't seem like the book is just peppered with profanity, from my point of view.
That said, for a light romantic comedy with a moral at the end, they're probably alienating a large chunk of their audience. The w word I've never considered that bad, but I can't imagine the c word being appropriate in a light romantic quality. I'm sure someone could do it, but I can't imagine how. So I think you were right to draw their attention to it.
I could imagine it being used maybe between women, as a joke? Like how sometimes friends can joke around and say, "Oh, you skank." Or something.
posted
Or (I'm becoming a broken record) on Sex and the City it was used in one episode by an artist painting women's genitalia. Everyone was offended, but ammused
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I've always found that it's generally polite never to swear in front of someone who's never sworn in front of you. Obviously this can't be true all the time, or no one would use curse words. Eventually, if you find yourself in a situation with a person that you think will be fine with it, and you feel so inclined, I think it can be appropriate to use curse words to show convey a certain message or intensity.
Most people that I have worked with for more than two or three days have cursed in the coarse of their day. When not used excessively, swearing can be an affective way to communicate your feelings or opinions.
I definitely try not to curse in front of strangers or people that I don't know, or people that I know don't like it. It's not hard, there are always other words you can use. I don't think it's a sign of unintelligence of a lack of vocabulary to use curse words, it's just different diction.
Many books I've read have contained more than an average of 4 curse words per page and I don't think their the worse for it. They can serve their purpose and deliver the message. But I agree with everyone here that swearing would probably not be appropriate in a light romantic comedy. I guess you'd really have to read the book to know for sure though.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:The F-word occured 88 times in the 350-page novel. One of the characters called another the C-word, and another character referred to a random guy who bugged him as an f-ing w*****. Every major character swears like this; it isn't just one person who has a potty mouth.
IMO, that's not excessive, depending on genre. If the book is about some young society women at a garden party, for example, it's probably LOW.
Seriously, that's not that bad. There's a webpage floating around out there that tracks the instances of the classic "F-word" in popular movies; more than a handful -- and these are popular movies, mind you -- used it in excess of two to three times a minute.Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Tom, it is about filthy rich people in Florida (and their not-rich associates and servants), so maybe that's what they're going for.
Posts: 1903 | Registered: Sep 2003
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I think excessive swearing can really tear a person out of the flow of a book. Even a person like me, who probably says it dozens of times a day. In fact, it's 830am and I've already told one of my coworkers to f--- off.
That said, it's impossible for me to say whether this particular manuscript has too much swearing without having read it. Just depends on the context.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I don't think swearing that often would really contribute to the plot of a book in that genre. It seems like they could take some out or replace some of the most offensive words pretty easily without much effect.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:I don't think swearing that often would really contribute to the plot of a book in that genre.
Swearing almost never contributes to plot. But it contributes quite a bit to tone and verisimilitude. Consider my experience reading OSC's Magic Street, where a nurse's use of "coprocranium" (or something along that line) completely threw me out of the book for a second, since I didn't believe even for a moment that the character in question wouldn't've used the more typical curse word for which it was substituted.
That said, I think using vulgarity to establish setting should be done the same way any good mechanism is used: sparingly. If you're writing a noir novel and consistently describe every room as dark and smoky, it's going to come off as self-parody; the same goes for any gangster movie in which most of the characters only speak in curses.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: I'm still trying to figure out what a "w*****" is
think - 'prostitute'
I think it also depends on the storyline and characters. If you are writing characters that are like heavy-duty mafia or something -- that generally TALK that way (there are people I have heard that do use the 'f' word nearly every-other word) -- then it would be true to character to write it that way, even if offensive to the reader.
posted
Wait a sec. I didn't think "w*****" stood for "prostitute." I assumed it was referring to the British slang for "masturbator," especially in the phrase "f****** w*****."
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:If you are writing characters that are like heavy-duty mafia or something -- that generally TALK that way (there are people I have heard that do use the 'f' word nearly every-other word) -- then it would be true to character to write it that way, even if offensive to the reader.
Yes, but, it's my observation that characters in books don't speak the way real-life people do, for the most part. Transcribing conversations will give you tons of tics, stammers, misused words, gestures, and noises. And even authors who are gifted at dialogue (a group I place OSC in) don't include nearly as much of this as real life would indicate.
And so even when some of these tics are included in writing to establish characterization, like a character who ends every 5th sentence with 'y'know?', it's still much less than what they would in real life. Y'know?
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
The book Mystic River used the F-word about once a page. I'd say the book is average for a certain type of fiction. Tom Wolfe's books have a lot of swearing in them as well.
I couldn't finish Mystic River because of it. I can handle a little, bit it started to grate on me. I don't swear very much, although I admit I broke the "I Never Swear" thing a few years ago under extreme familial pressure. I do limit it to light swearing about (not at) family, if that helps.
quote:For those who don't know, I live in Washington DC, on the East Coast, and am pretty removed from the Utah-Mormon axis. You could ask Katie how her experience has been here in town.
Five months in D.C. and I can't think of every hearing the F-word or any other swearing a single time at work. There might have been some light profanity from coworkers at out-of-office things, but not much. Maybe where I work is more conservative.
*thinks* Conservative is the wrong word. My boss, an agnostic, did call the President a "weenie" in a staff meeting once, which was greatly amusing. What would the word for "doesn't swear" be that doesn't have any political or religious implications?
posted
I think Tom's right. Farmgirl's W word is quite commonly used in the US. Though I wouldn't have pegged the British word as quite that offensive. Probably because I'm not British.
In answer to the question, language like that is definitely jarring to me and brings me out of the story, at least if it's the majority of characters in a book aimed at twenty-something women. At the very, very least, they're severely limiting their audience. I'd also recommend against using so much profanity unless they could demonstrate compelling (character, ideology, something) reasons to leave it in.
Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
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I've found that people who have problems with swearing typically don't like even the books and movies that do make effective use of profanity, e.g. Kevin Smith movies, Tarantino movies, Chuck Pahlaniuk novels.
Most of them would not, in fact, call that an effective use of profanity.
quote:ElJay wrote:
That said, for a light romantic comedy with a moral at the end, they're probably alienating a large chunk of their audience. The w word I've never considered that bad, but I can't imagine the c word being appropriate in a light romantic quality. I'm sure someone could do it, but I can't imagine how. So I think you were right to draw their attention to it.
The lesbian community has been trying for years to alter the meaning of "c***" the same way the gay (male) community effectively took "queer" and "made it their own." With that in mind, I can see it being possible, but even my ears grate a bit when I hear c*** used and am not expecting it.
It's such a vulgar SOUNDING word.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Weird, that word never bothered be. I'll never, ever *use* it but hearing it is like hearing "potato chip" or "SUV" or something. A word that *does* bother me is "moist".... anyone remember the spark dot com?
Posts: 3636 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: The book Mystic River used the F-word about once a page. I'd say the book is average for a certain type of fiction. Tom Wolfe's books have a lot of swearing in them as well.
I couldn't finish Mystic River because of it. I can handle a little, bit it started to grate on me. I don't swear very much, although I admit I broke the "I Never Swear" thing a few years ago under extreme familial pressure. I do limit it to light swearing about (not at) family, if that helps.
So do movies like Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs or even South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut bother you to the point of being unwatchable? Or would those bother only if you're reading the book?
Just curious how much of a difference in impact there is between written and visual media.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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The difference might also be in the time it takes to finish something. I can sit through a two-hour movie filled with cursing and even enjoy it if it's a good movie, but reading a book for two weeks on my commute would get to me more due to longer exposure.
quote:So do movies like Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs or even South Park: Bigger, Longer and Uncut bother you to the point of being unwatchable? Or would those bother only if you're reading the book?
Yeah, those are basically unwatchable for me. I did see The Departed this past weekend, but there was much agnozing about it and I only did it because it's a Scorcese movie and because Matt wanted to. There was a lot of swearing, but not too much.
Donnie Darko I turned off in the first fifteen minutes because of all the swearing. That might give an indication of what is too much.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think I have a somewhat higher tolerance for some words because a lot of my friends are Irish. Many of those words are not considered particularly shocking.
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. You could ask Katie how her experience has been here in town.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
And most shows don't have more than one or two characters like that even if they do exist. So I don't get how "modern tv" is supposed to have desensitized these words to such an extent.
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