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Irami: Thing is, that GS made some good points (imo) in this topic. Now, yes, I may not agree with the Masculinity killing comment, but your comment on it was pot and kettlish.
quote:The gang bangers around here are violent, yup, but just about on the level of the several hundred military people I know, too... and the thing is, the gangbangers are a small minority of the inner city population, while military people are 100% of people in the military.
Granted, I only know the gangbangers I've been present for the arrest of or seen being prosecuted in court, but those have generally been much more violent than the hundreds or thousands of military men I've met.
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quote: Killing people doesn't work... we're trying that tactic in Iraq, and there are now MORE people who want to kill us then there were 4 years ago
I think that you are like the uninitiated sitting down to watch a football game and seeing only random violence.
It is silly to say that we are trying to 'kill people' in Iraq, I assure you from experience that most of our effort in Iraq is spent in trying to not kill people or hurt people, or let them hurt or kill each other. Our ROE list grows every season. If we wanted to kill lots of people we could leave scorched earth for a city block around every attack against our troops with far less effort then we put into carefully separating the very bad from the just normally bad and the actually innocent and taking them into comfortable, well fed, and cared for custody (often releasing them in only a few months)
Yes a few naked pyramids and some hilarious pointing at inadequate masculinity occurs but the same thing happens in American High Schools.
It is a failure of imagination to think that we are engaged in anything like wholesale slaughter.
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Thought I'd share some of the fun I had to go through. This video is fairly similar to what I had to do last month for security training. However, instead of using a gun, we used batons (practice ones for safety). LINKY.Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I heard an amusing story out of a marine base in California, some 'gang bangers' got all drugged up and shot at a Marine guarded gate with pistols or machine guns. The Marines signaled their overwatch and the 240B shreaded the car and killed them as easily as a cat terrier kills a rat.
The difference between the military violence and that of 'gang bangers' is not just one of skill but also control. In New Orleans the units from Iraq quelled the 'gang bangers' in a very brief time.
Better violence, unleashed for a purpose, under the control of our body politic through our elected leaders.
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I am willing to bet that that is almost certainly a myth, but am willing to be proven wrong.
Regarding political affiliation in the military, I only had a couple political discussions in the military. No one ever asked me what party was in, and I didn't care what party anyone else was in. No one ever asked me to vote, for that matter.... So, my impression is that, as a whole, the military tended to be (used to be?) pretty politically apathetic, at least as far as the enlisted went.
For the record, I am pretty Democratic.
An interesting point about military and Democrats--I think that the number of Iraq veterans running this election cycle is in favor of the Dems. I know there are a large number out there.
Another point about spending. When people talk about spending for military, they often point at Clinton. Cato has some interesting articles on Clinton's military spending that I found quite illuminating.
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Well, I just came across this thread and want to add my 2 cents.
As for intelligence, I will wager that the soldiers in all of the platoons I was in whilst serving have a much higher education level than that of the general population (note that I am talking all enlisted here). Over 50% had Undergraduate degrees (BA or BS) and probably 10-20% had advanced course work. (I should note that I was in Military Intelligence units in platoons of linguists so we were above average for the military)
As far as political leanings, the large majority of the soldiers I talked to about politics were leaning Republican as far as presidential races went. I started after clinton was elected the second time so the only elections I was in for were the last two but none of the guys wanted either Gore or Kerry in office. Now if the Democrats could put up a decent candidate that person may get more support from the military.
As for supplying the military (body armor and the like), no one expected the kind of war we are fighting. In traditional warfare only your combat arms guys needed body armor. Now we don't have front lines and even the cooks need it and the supply vehicles need to be armored. You really can't fault the administration for that screw-up. You might say they were too slow or that the pentegon screwed that one up but the administration isn't responsible for everything that happens in the world (though they will take credit for it if it is positive.) We wont even talk about a previous administration sending troops to Mogadishu(sp) without their armored vehicles (Abrams and the like).
As for the quality of the troops, I have found none better in the world. (Once again I was not in a traditional unit).
Sergeant
Edited to mention Somalia
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GS, prove it. You can't, because it didn't happen.
Most people in the Army were pretty normal people. You had some people, usually a larger proportion than in usual society but still a small minority, who were very gun ho, but most of them you wouldn't have known they were in the Armed Forces...except for the fact that they all walk in sync with each other.
It is like saying that since some football players are bullies, the entire school is violent. Most people in the Army would be completely content to not ever fire a weapon in battle...and a ton of them never will, even in wartime.
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Why should passing on an 'amusing' story awaken a need for a police record search to 'prove' it happened, I have no idea if it is a true tale, but there is undeniable truth in it...
Can you prove the story of the good Samaritan? No, the tale has its lesson even as this one does. I believe you were in the military? It is likely you went to basic training with a few of the morally challenged inner city youth. Did you find them to be skilled weapons handlers or as I did find them to be blustering fools who needed their hands held until they finally understood that there was no short-cut, no special treatment, just practice until you get it. Dime and Washer, point of aim, weaponeer practice and drill on the range.
We had three gangsters in our line, all three needed full magazines to qualify.(20 extra rounds in a 40 round qualification) Others have spoken of similar experiences to me. The real shooters are the boys from the Midwest and South and Oregon and Utah, who learned weapons from men who treat them with respect and use them as tools, not as props.
A single marine with an M-16 and a combat load along with a grenadier and a distant support by fire position stopped three truck bombs meant to sequentially over run a position, with the last, a dump truck, exploding in the chow hall. The windows were bullet proof, the drivers wore vests, all were dead and full of .556 rounds. That is a story I can point you too if you do not remember it, that should underline the difference between P-Diddly Whoever and a soldier.
(Anticipating the demand for the article, I went out and found out a similar case had happened just recently, again Marine Guard stops suicide attack the other one is older and , a couple years back perhaps so I may dig it up but if anybody else knows where, feel free...)
[ November 03, 2006, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: General Sax ]
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"Why should passing on an 'amusing' story awaken a need for a police record search to 'prove' it happened, I have no idea if it is a true tale, but there is undeniable truth in it..."
So it is OK for you to fabricate a story if it proves your point? If so, you should make that your tag. I didn't find the wannabe gangsters any less proficient than the hillbillies who couldn't get their mind around the fact that an M-16 isn't a deer rifle, and that they weren't shooting gophers or rabbits anymore.
I was a great shot, better than most of my instructors, but when it came time to qualify, they MADE me load the rifle with the "bonus shots" left for me by the guys ahead of me.....and I barely qualified, because each and every "extra" bullet was a dud, and caused me to miss all my 50 m targets...something I had NEVER done in practice.
When I tried to say I didn't want (or need) the "extra" rounds, the instructor hit me in the head, and made me load them. After, he pulled me aside and "smoked" me in front of everyone else, because I had questioned him on the shooting line. Never mind what he made me do was cheating, and had not worked. Never mind that I had shot a 38 or 40 the first time I shot an m-16, and had recorded 3 perfect rounds during practice shoots.....and had only scored a 34 of 40 qualifying that day.
Just because someone has more experience than you, or bigger and better guns, doesn't make them right, or just. It doesn't make then anything...other than dangerous....to you, and to others.
Although I am sure you can just fabricate another story to illustrate your obvious intellect and moral superiority and prove me wrong.
I could quote you real events....you know, the ones that actually happened outside of "some guys once told me that their cousin thrice removed once heard that..." ...that show how effective even limited weapons, in the hand of enemies lesser trained then ours, where a simple hand made bomb defeats all of our efforts to protect ourselves.
It happens every day in Iraq.
Violence may be necessary at times, but if your whole world view is based on it, as it seems to be, then I am glad I barely know you.
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Are you really a soldier? A simple hand-made weapon defeats all our efforts? A sharp rock can kill a man and has done so millions of times, but only one in a thousand 'hand made' bombs in Iraq kills an American soldier. I would call our efforts pretty effective and getting more so.
If you can shoot a gopher, a man sized pop up target is a joke, however I am more amused that you seem to harbor some sort of resentment over a smoking that sounds justified to me, a range is no place to lip off.
Anybody can be smoked too failure, in two minutes you can do all of the push-ups that your body will perform and you are done, in twenty minutes you can be so exhausted you can't crawl. The only thing you learn from a smoking is who you are, any Sergeant can break your stamina, but only you know when it broke, only you carry the baggage of self discovery that comes with it. It sounds like you did not like what you found out about yourself.
I have seen DI's miscount push-ups, full load magazines, DQ PT studs, and smoke soldiers from other lines to win the bragging rights of best platoon. I was cheated out of a 325 PT score because our platoon was in the lead (we won anyway because our DI's were just as big a bunch of cheats) but it is a joke to me now, I do not cry about it.
I also assure you, if the story of the San Diego drive by is an Urban Legend it did not start with me...
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quote: Violence may be necessary at times, but if your whole world view is based on it, as it seems to be, then I am glad I barely know you
This seems personal, I do not know why you think a clear understanding of violence is a world view based on violence. I also have a clear understanding of software but I do not base my world view on that either. I am sure you have clear views on many things but only a fool would hear you discuss one of them and assume you are a whatever you happened to speak about at that time.
I have had scores of years to marinate in vice and virtue, so it does not a behoove a thinking person to believe they know my world view based on a two minute reading of what I have written. It would be like me looking at your ear ring and assuming you were gay...
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quote:And I don't know that there are more liberals in the Air Force. I just think that of all the branches, the one most likely to be more liberal is the one with the most p***ies.
Ladies, ladies, I found a real gentleman for you.
I think you were confusing the adjective version of "p***y" with the noun. And I think you were confusing my sarcasm with seriousness. I just think you are all around confused.
And for BaoQingTian, lighten up. My over-the-top, in-your-face style is only petty if I actually mean what I say. If you go to the thread "The Only Election Issue That Matters" on the other forum, you can see how I am when I'm talking about something serious.
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I am not sure but I think that the anglo-saxon slang for primary sexual traits is a no-no here, I am sure that the Papa Janitor will have rude things to say about it if you do not edit a bit.
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Just so we're clear, I don't doubt that Marines can do damage when they need to. That's pretty obvious. I just seriously doubt the story about gang members wandering up and shooting at a Marine post just because they were on drugs, plus them sticking arond long enough for the Marines to get the overwatch to come around and shoot the car up with machine gun fire, plus I wonder about the fact that the car was off-base. Can military units on U.S. soil just kill civilians when threatened? Is that part of their mandate?
Note that none of the above means it couldn't have happened. It's just a weird, suspicious story to me.
Bob knows Marines have done plenty of heroic things, but that doesn't mean that untrue stories can't get around. Please don't think it's anything personal, GS.
By the way, I did guard duty for the base at Monteith, Germany and I didn't get any ammunition to guard the base with. In order to get the ammunition, I hade to get (as in find) the NCOIC to unlock the key box that had the key to the weapons cage, then he had to unlock the ammo boxes. True story. I menaced the communist world with "Halt! or I'll say Halt! again!"
Understand, of course, that the base was protected by a chain link fence with single-strand barbed wire at the top, so any terrorists or whatnot using the entrance (Which had no real roadblock or gate or anything. I just waved people through.) would just be doing so out of politeness, I'm sure. :/
Then there was the company next door who was, theoretically, the chemical spill clean-up guys or something. This company had what I think special needs woman in uniform. I think her I.Q. might have been about 80. Maybe 90.
Anyways, one night, apparently she got drunk, passed out and, if rumors were true, had a train performed on her.
Then there was the colonel of the brigade I was in who got transferred because he screwed too many of his drivers/secretaries.
Did I mention that most of the base took massive amounts of drugs? And of course it goes without saying that people drank until they passed out most weekends.
Let's see. What else. Of all the people I knew, I wsa the only person who had bothered to learn any German at all. I think I was one of the few who read for pleasure. Most of the guys stuck to McDonalds or known military hang-outs.
And there is more, but, hey, you get the picture. Peacetime military. Loads of fun for the whole family. Send your youth to hte Army, American, and watch them come home pillars of the community. /salute
Now, were there intelligent enlisted? Absolutely. Everyone is intelligent, really. It's just that so few people in the military really were what were charmingly referred to as 'book smart'. In case people don't know, book smart is what the military terms people who know a lot from books but don't know the real picture.
For the most part, people who are book smart tend to be the ones who, I don't know, learn stuff in school and progress, because they like to read.
So, it's kind of funny to me when I hear the military held up as some kind of bastion of honor and virtue, the cream of American youth.
And if you think I'm holding myself up as better than anyone else, trust me, I know I'm not. I joined the military not because it was any kind of dream of mine but literally on a whim. I would say most of the people that I knew were like that. Though, again, this is rear support, not combat arms.
I had a great time in the Army and met some great people, but in my mind the Army will be more Joseph Heller than Tom Clancy.
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The Marine Barracks that were destroyed were hit by a van that sped through the Concrete Weaver and refused to stop. The Officer in charge had accountability issues with ammo so the live rounds were in the drawers with tape over the tops...
Since then guards, even in Germany, carry live ammo and are amber (weapon loaded but not charged) on guard duty.
Germany does seem to be a better place to bed your Eastern European nanny then too soldier, did you here the story about the guy and the chicken...
Still better a country where you can heave into a gutter and sleep it off on the train then one that periodically tries to take over Europe...
The Central Asian theater under Rumsfeld has really maintained high morals(no alcohol, fraternization rules enforced, etc). The army has CID men even in Germany and Korea stopping soldiers from frequenting the perfectly legal brothels (the little brown sisterhood actually protested bless their hearts...) so it is clear that much of the Peacetime antics are no longer allowed.
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: I am not sure but I think that the anglo-saxon slang for primary sexual traits is a no-no here, I am sure that the Papa Janitor will have rude things to say about it if you do not edit a bit.
Again. I was using the word in it's adjective form, which is not the same as using it as slang for a piece of anatomy. But for the sake of civility, I will edit.
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: I am not sure but I think that the anglo-saxon slang for primary sexual traits is a no-no here, I am sure that the Papa Janitor will have rude things to say about it if you do not edit a bit.
Again. I was using the word in it's adjective form, which is not the same as using it as slang for a piece of anatomy. But for the sake of civility, I will edit.
Wow. I just got to the AF being *expletive deleted*s and sort of shut down. I make fun of the Army, Navy and Marines because I work with them all and it's good-natured. What you said was not in accordance with the rules of the game.
Therefore, I feel it's my duty as a member of the force to prove your assessment wrong. If you ever come to GA, let me know, and I can iron this/you out.
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quote:Therefore, I feel it's my duty as a member of the force to prove your assessment wrong. If you ever come to GA, let me know, and I can iron this/you out.
And we have bachelor number three, does that mean I get to be Chuck Barris?
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quote:The Central Asian theater under Rumsfeld has really maintained high morals(no alcohol, fraternization rules enforced, etc). The army has CID men even in Germany and Korea stopping soldiers from frequenting the perfectly legal brothels (the little brown sisterhood actually protested bless their hearts...) so it is clear that much of the Peacetime antics are no longer allowed.
'Little brown sisterhood' isn't one I've heard before.
Anyway, the Korean posts have to be pretty gnarly duty. The DPRK keeps border duty strenuous, and yet there's no reduction in formalities.
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It's pretty easy to be the good guys in comparison with North Korea, which is by far the most dystopic nation on earth.
I saw a documentary on it, by a guy named Pettigrew. He had a rare chance to wander within the country and bring a camera. Real crawly stuff, there. And South Korea's doing pretty good, too! multi-party democracy, tech savvy, booming trade, Starcraft tourneys that can be seen from space ..
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quote:Originally posted by airmanfour: Wow. I just got to the AF being *expletive deleted*s and sort of shut down. I make fun of the Army, Navy and Marines because I work with them all and it's good-natured. What you said was not in accordance with the rules of the game.
Therefore, I feel it's my duty as a member of the force to prove your assessment wrong. If you ever come to GA, let me know, and I can iron this/you out.
Well, I spent plenty of time with airmen while I was at Fort. Carson and so I know exactly how empty your threats are. At any rate...THIS IS AN INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD!!! I thought eveyone already knew how ridiculous you can look when you try and threaten someone here (unless you are a moderator, of course. Then the threat usually has the word "banned" in it.) So go jump on your exercise bike to practice for your PT test and get busy not serving in combat.
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And I may have been out of line there. I don't really have anything against airmen. I think they are great people, most of them. Probably better people on average than army grunts. They're just not real soldiers. And they create resentment in the other branches because they are better paid, receive better compensation, don't do half the work and never put their lives on the line. And you will probably try and argue with me about it, but I saw it and I know. So before you do, answer me this: how many airmen have died in combat since Vietnam? How many even died in vietnam? What do they do that any other branch of the service cannot do? And how com airman who are stationed at an Army or Marine base get paid extra for "sub-standard living conditions?" Why are they allowed to go to school full time for free while serving active duty, while army guys need a waiver to take at maximum 6 hours a week, which is never granted if there is any training on the schedule? I was denied once because there "might" be training.
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Good point. While I'd like to smack people for saying dumb stuff, it's not a good idea. So I'll be content daydreaming about it.
I've never met a soldier with your attitude, but the 98s and 97s are so wound up in training with us pitiful AF people that I guess they get polluted early.
We're not supposed to be soldiers. If we wanted to we could have joined the Army and then be bitter when we found out that the AF considers our living conditions sub-standard and has more opportunities than the Army does. Wake up at 0430 for PT, have to go between my team, squad, and platoon leaders to finally be referred to my 1SG. Get a 180(?) on my PT test so I can be exempt from morning PT and then be told I have to show up anyway to "help motivate my ate-up, unmotivated, broken battle-buddy".
Yeah, sounds like fun. Not.
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As far as branch rivalry, I will sit and have a drink with anyone in the service and have a good time. All my chiding is just that. I hold nothing against any branch, even "part-timers." So I don't really see your point in being a jerk to airmanfour, Reshpeckobiggle.
After all, all your duty has been shore duty. Lucky you. Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by airmanfour: Good point. While I'd like to smack people for saying dumb stuff, it's not a good idea. So I'll be content daydreaming about it.
I've never met a soldier with your attitude, but the 98s and 97s are so wound up in training with us pitiful AF people that I guess they get polluted early.
We're not supposed to be soldiers. If we wanted to we could have joined the Army and then be bitter when we found out that the AF considers our living conditions sub-standard and has more opportunities than the Army does. Wake up at 0430 for PT, have to go between my team, squad, and platoon leaders to finally be referred to my 1SG. Get a 180(?) on my PT test so I can be exempt from morning PT and then be told I have to show up anyway to "help motivate my ate-up, unmotivated, broken battle-buddy".
Yeah, sounds like fun. Not.
I don't know if anything I said was dumb, but you do have a point about making the right choice. My point is that is a definite blow to our morale knowing that arguably the most useless branch of the military (the Air Force does nothing the Navy couldn't do) is treated so much better than all the others. I don't have problem with the Air Force in particular, nor with you. Like I said, you were smart to join the Air Force. There is a certain degree of envy in my residual bitterness. No, my problem is with the preferential treatment, and that is something I'm sure everyone can identify with.
As far as the specific points you make, I generally got up around 6, not 4:30, for PT (didn't get off work until 6 most days of course, not to mention the 24 hour staff duty and CQ shifts every week or so); I've never heard of anyone being exempt from PT, and if it were to happen, the cutoff sure as hell wouldn't be anything as low as 180, maybe the 300s; and as for my attitue, I assure you that I am not in the minority for Army guys at least; the resentment is palpable. But since one of the things we have to be resentful about is that no one cares what we think, nothing will ever be done about it. Unless the Air Force all of the sudden decided to speak up about the injustice.
And I don't know what you're talking about, Stan. I got shot at and saw my share of blood during the year I spent in that hellhole between Baghdad and Tikrit.
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If you are referring to the last part of my last post, it was a joke. Hence the at the end of it. I was hoping that it would relay that I wasn't exactly being serious.
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Oh. Hard to interpret that. I thought maybe you were just saying "no hard feelings," or something.
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Oh, and one more thing: We don't make fun of the weekend warriors or part-timers anymore. They get longer deployments than active duty now. Sucks.
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Oh, I know that. Buddy of mine was in the reserves and went to Iraq a couple years back. Tell you what, for the money that is offered, I'd go back out there. Wouldn't think twice about it.
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Not me. I was offered an A3 re-enlistment bonus, which would have meant about $18,000. But it was also a guarantee for going back to Iraq. If I'm going back to Iraq, it's as a civilian where I can make about three times as much, including that bonus.
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It must have been 290 then, we score it out of 100, so I get the two confused sometimes. The exercise bike test went the way of the Dodo before I joined, FYI.
$18000? What did you do? Ours is somewhere between $30-50k now, but I'd rather chop off my leg. I just looked at the 97E PF SRBs and those guys are making a killing. 3.5A for an E-4. Maybe I should join the army.
And Stan referring to shore duty references the fact that in the Navy you're not a real person until you've "been to the fleet". I've heard it's one of the strangest experiences ever.
Sorry you got shot at.
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Don't be sorry. It happens. At least I didn't get hit.
I was an 88M. A3 (or 3A, whichever) was 3x base pay x nuber of years re-enlistment. E-5 pay being around $2,000 for 3 more years. This was two years ago.
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: I heard an amusing story out of a marine base in California, some 'gang bangers' got all drugged up and shot at a Marine guarded gate with pistols or machine guns. The Marines signaled their overwatch and the 240B shreaded the car and killed them as easily as a cat terrier kills a rat.
I'm going to assume that "marine base in California" is 29 Palms, given that it's the largest Marine base in the world, and it's in California. Doubts of the veracity of that story aside, and lack of knowledge of WHEN it took place, I still take issue with your "amusement" at such a story.
My brother served at 29 Palms for two years. He got out of the service just before Afghanistan and Iraq, but anyone talking about "amusement" at the thought of someone shooting bullets at a place my brother served, possibly while he was there, severely pisses me off, to say nothing about your casual disregard for human life.
I don't even have the words to describe how your attitude offends me.
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And Stan referring to shore duty references the fact that in the Navy you're not a real person until you've "been to the fleet". I've heard it's one of the strangest experiences ever.
More like one of the greatest as far as I am concerned. I loved going out to sea. Those that served with me couldn't always tell, but I did. On the days I didn't have watch, I would wake up at 0530 and watch the sunrise with a cup of coffee and a cigarette. Greatest start to a day. It's always the same sun and the same ocean, but there is always something different about it.
That and the fact that going out to sea gave me a sense of purpose. I was involved in everything from training, safety, maintenance, and mentoring. Now I work in supply, and I don't like it so much. I want to be on a ship, teaching a NUB (new useless body) how to do proper valve mainetence, how to run drills, and to give boards again.
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So*...lets get this straight. Might makes right?
What they did could have gotten me kicked out of the service, and could have gotten them kicked out as well....except for the fact that the whole system is corrupt. Cheating qualifying with a rifle? If you need an extra 4 bullets the pass then you shouldn't be in the Army at all, and that isn't only MY opinion...it is the minimum standard for the Army as well. If you can't shoot, don't get into my foxhole. If you can't carry a strecher, don't be a medic.
It isn't rocket science. Why are there pictograms on MRE's if all soldiers are so smart? Tin Foil is smarter?
If you think a .22, which is usually used for shooting rabbits, gophers, and squirrels, and an M-16 shoot even close to the same, then I doubt you ever shot either. Most of the "good ole boys" didn't do great on their rifle qualification. Not because they couldn't shoot, but because they felt they already knew how to, and didn't listen to the instructors enough.
Sax, it IS wrong to kill people, which is why there are so many rules against it, and different types of charges depending on the situation. It is even wrong to kill someone accidentally, which BTW is called negligent homicide. You didn't mean to kill anyone, but your negligence cause their death anyway.
Sometimes it is the lesser of evils, but that never makes it right. THAT was the comment that I had a problem with, to be honest, even though I realized that you were just being bombastic. I know, from painful personal knowledge, that sometimes you have no other option, but it is rarely the correct path to take....particularly if there are other options at the time.
First you quote an "Urban Legend" to make a point....when called on it, you claim that the truth of your "story" is not relevant....then you claim to have such a wonderful "understanding of violence" that you fail to understand why killing is wrong.
But this is all caused by the fact that I didn't liked getting smoked 15 years ago.
Your intellect "amazes" me almost as much as your apparent lack of morality disgusts me.
My aunt Maureen was a full Col. in the Marines, I was in the Army (USAMRIID, one of the highest concentration of intelligent people on the planet), my dad (who is without a doubt one of the smartest people I have ever met) was in the Army in Korea, my uncle Jim was in the Navy (South Pacific), and my uncle Bobby died in the Army on D-Day.
I am familiar with the Armed Forces, to say the least. If you look at all my posts, I have defended the Service more than most....but it is hardly the brain trust that some people try to make it out to be.
Most of the really intelligent people I did know if the AF did the same thing I did....they got out as soon as they could, and used the GI bill to get a real education. Some of them made a career out of it...particularly the guys I knew in the Navy, who were working in Subs and with Nuclear Reactors.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: I am familiar with the Armed Forces, to say the least. If you look at all my posts, I have defended the Service more than most....but it is hardly the brain trust that some people try to make it out to be.
Most of the really intelligent people I did know if the AF did the same thing I did....they got out as soon as they could, and used the GI bill to get a real education. Some of them made a career out of it...particularly the guys I knew in the Navy, who were working in Subs and with Nuclear Reactors.
LOL "Brain Trust" is not the world I would use either. I like to think I was a few degrees more intelligent than my battle buddies, and I did just that: got out after four years and went straight to school ( 25-yr-old junior at CSU now). But I'm gonna use some statistical terminology now, and what you have to do is compare the relative risk of stupidity of someone who is not in the military with someone who is. I'd put it around 1.2, which is not much, but statistically significant to be sure.
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I think that doesn't take into effect some of the truly stupid people I have met while in the service.
You know, the people who are PROUD of the fact that they have NEVER read an entire book in their lives.
I don't know if they are more stupid than anyone else, but the fact that they are armed makes me worry about it more.
I will admit that a lot of people go into the service just for the GI bill, and that raises the curve more than a little.
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As far as the shore duty pass I made earlier. Here is a joke I found to go along with. It is edited for language.
An old Sailor and an old Marine were sitting at the VFW arguing about who'd had the tougher career.
"I did 30 years in the Corps, " the Marine declared proudly, "and fought in three of my country's wars. Fresh out of boot camp, I hit the beach at Okinawa, clawed my way up the blood-soaked sand, and eventually took out an entire enemy machine gun nest with a single grenade. As a sergeant, I fought in Korea alongside General MacArthur. We pushed back the enemy inch by bloody inch, all the way up to the Chinese border, always under a barrage of artillery and small arms fire. Finally, as a Gunny Sergeant, I did three consecutive combat tours in Vietnam. We humped through the mud and razor grass for 14 hours a day, plagued by rain and mosquitoes, ducking under sniper fire all day, and mortar fire all night. In a firefight, we'd fire until our arms ached and our guns were empty, then we'd charge the enemy with bayonets!"
"Ah, " said the Sailor with a dismissive wave of his hand, "lucky you! All shore duty, huh?"
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Oh yeah! I almost forgot my biggest biggest issue with the Navy. When they GIVE(!!!) EVERY SINGLE CTI IN THE COMMAND A 40GB VIDEO IPOD for "training"! They do EXACTLY the same thing we do and get iPods! Who's the spoiled service now? Stan.
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BTW, Engineering types are lucky to get anything. Things such as Camelbacks were great when we were out in the North Arabian Sea. Our ventillation may be great in the engineering spaces, but it's not air conditioned.
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I'd trade air-conditioning for windows. Going to work when it's dawn, and leaving when it's dusk is more than a little bit confusing when there's no visible progression.
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Sadly enough, the a/c units are in the engineering spaces, but we don't get any (except on subs, where everything is air conditioned). I won't take any windows. I work below the water line. Bad things could happen. Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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To Kwea: The part about being stupid and armed, yeah...
But my point was about balancing the idiots on both sides. And it is more likely that any random civilian you meet is some drug addict or thug or hillbilly with a room-temperature IQ than any random soldier.
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Uh, not so much as you might think. Of course that depends on where you live too. Like if you live near me. I live about 2 blocks outside of crack central east coast.
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Yeah, it depends. Even in the inner city (I grew up near Detroit) most people just want a regular life. They go to work, keep their heads down, and hope no one violent notices them or their families.
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Yeah, it depends. Even in the inner city (I grew up near Detroit) most people just want a regular life. They go to work, keep their heads down, and hope no one violent notices them or their families.
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