posted
I'm glad this thread seems to be back on track. Couple of things I noticed that made me want to comment...
quote: Dag: Whether the results are good or not, his tactics are not good.
I take this to mean "his tactics are morally wrong," which of course is subjective. I think his tactics are very good, if good can be interpreted to mean "effective" in this context. His tactics are effective in that they acheive what he wants them to acheive.
quote: Lyrhawn: Basically: Mocking racists, with the claim that doing so will somehow fix the problem of racism is ludicrous. These guys aren't going to say "dear God, I never looked at it like THAT before" and change their ways.
I'm not sure where the idea that Cohen is claiming that he can fix the problem of racism with his comedy. Clarify this for me. Are you talking about Cohen? Or maybe someone in this thread said it? I just can't remember anybody claiming a nobler pursuit at the heart of 'Borat' like solving the problem of racism.
I have the impression that as a comedian, he's interested in exploring the territory, and finding comedy there, and that's about it.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think what most of us are saying is it is a nasty sort of comedy, that makes fun of people without those people knowing they're being made fun of.
Take another instance, for example, where Borat is being interviewed at a dating service (you can find the link on YouTube) That makes me uncomfortable, and he's not even bringing out "the worst" in the lady, the way he is with the racists. She comes across as polite and well-meaning and bewildered. BUT -- the point of the comedy sketch is to laugh at Borat, this character, who is interacting with this woman, a dupe, who does NOT know that Borat is actually not real. So while we watch the sketch to see what outrageous thing Borat will say/do next, we ALSO watch the sketch to laugh at the woman, for being so sincere and trusting of this guy who we all know is just faking it all. She is part-and-parcel of the comedy, and it wouldn't work at all if we thought she might be in on it. Or it just wouldn't be as funny (funny subjectively -- i'm assuming those who like that sort of humor wouldn't think it was funny if she KNEW he was a fake -- like the Conan O'Brien bit. It still IS funny, but not funny in the same way. It's like you watch it because you like seeing someone tricked, and not for the genius of the Borat character. It's about control, it's about having power over that situation -- knowing that you know something that that woman doesn't, knowing that she's being tricked, it makes you feel good about yourself. Better about yourself. Maybe you don't actively think "i wouldn't be fooled like that!" but that thought is still there, I think.
And maybe they told that woman after everything was done, and maybe she thought it was funny. But why do we think practical jokes are funny? At their heart, they are lies told to trick someone, make them react a certain way based on the lie, and then usually revealing the trick to them, so they know how thoroughly they've made a fool of themselves. And if they take it poorly, they're "A bad sport" or they "take themselves too seriously" or "they have no sense of humor." So you lied to me, told me something that wasn't true, I trusted you,and you betrayed that trust, and then you expect me to think it's a laugh riot? What you did wasn't clever, nor was it particularly nice, it was merely a lie told to humiliate.
On the racism note, I think those of us who don't like his comedy are wondering if cohen IS saying he's trying to reveal racism, and if so, how he can possibly think this his comedy is doing anything but preaching to the choir.
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Cohen has stated that his mockery of people like those of Kazakhstan is ACTUALLY his way of mocking people who hold misconceptions about those places. In other words, "ha ha, how dumb are you for thinking people in Kazakhstan actually have incest with each other all the time." His stated intent was to bring to light the predjudices around the country by mocking them.
Maybe he isn't trying to fix them outright, but if that isn't his endgame, then his goal for this movie seems a little silly.
quote:I take this to mean "his tactics are morally wrong," which of course is subjective. I think his tactics are very good, if good can be interpreted to mean "effective" in this context. His tactics are effective in that they acheive what he wants them to acheive.
Given what I've read, as I just said, about what his goals for the movie were, I'd say he didn't achieve his aims. What do you mean by effective? Effective at making people laugh? Sure I'll give him that, in the same context that I gave him that before, and that fart jokes are funny. But what else do you think he wants to achieve?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Well, where's the funny? It seems to me that the funny is the person's reacting when he/she walks into the room and is all, "What just happened here?!"
quote:Cohen has stated that his mockery of people like those of Kazakhstan is ACTUALLY his way of mocking people who hold misconceptions about those places. In other words, "ha ha, how dumb are you for thinking people in Kazakhstan actually have incest with each other all the time." His stated intent was to bring to light the predjudices around the country by mocking them.
See, I think that's a leap. The second part of that quote (with regard to his intent) does not connect with the first part of that quote. I'm wondering where we're getting the idea that his intent is "to bring light the prejudices around thie country by mocking them."
I agree that it is one of his intentions, but I think it is one of many intentions; I think where we're in disagreement is that I don't think he's portraying himself as any kind of crusader, I just think he's trying to be funny.
quote:I think what most of us are saying is it is a nasty sort of comedy, that makes fun of people without those people knowing they're being made fun of.
I think all of us are saying that. The disagreement is: Some of us think this is a bad thing, and some of us don't mind.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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Okay, then I think your issue is with Cohen, not me. The point is that people's misconceptions about Kazakhstan are representative of their ideas about the rest of the world, and third world countries in general. Maybe using Kaz. wasn't the best example, I should've picked something in the US.
posted
What I think Mr. Cohen should best is how condescending Americans often are. The New York femminists were the worst, but others were pretty bad too.
The Atlanta African-Americans and the Southern Belles both treated him with kindness, but tried to turn him into one of them.
Of course, we all do that. And it isn't always pretty.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
In all fairness Pelegius, Cohen approached all of those groups looking to learn their ways. It wasn't an active conversion attempt. He walked up to the teens on MLK Blvd (which was either staged, or ballsy) and asked them to teach him how to be like them. He set up the meeting with the feminists (whether or not they are from New York seems immaterial to me) to ask them about women's rights. He set up the meeting with an etiquette coach, to find out how southern manners and hospitality works, and then went to a dinner under what appeared to be the assumption that he would learn how southern lifestyle and dinners and manners work.
You can hardly fault them given the circumstance.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Okay, then I think your issue is with Cohen, not me.
Well, actually I didn't think I had an issue with anybody. But since you mentioned it, what I'm saying is: Cohen is not saying what you're saying he's saying.
That is the leap.
"He has said the segments are 'dramatic demonstration of how racism feeds on dumb conformity, as much as rabid bigotry,' does not equal "Mocking racists, with the claim that doing so will somehow fix the problem of racism."
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Not all practical jokes involve lying to people or making a fool out of them, FWIW.
I think the essence of the term "practical joke" implies just that, actually...
quote:Main Entry: practical joke Function: noun : a prank intended to trick or embarrass someone or cause physical discomfort
Seriously, is there an example of a practical joke where the purpose is NOT to fool someone in order to get their uncensored reaction?
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I just found this New Yorker article (as a link from Slate's year-end movie round up) and thought it was a great exposition of what I found so abhorant about the cultural phenomenon that was (hope that remains past tense forever and ever) Borat.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Referring back to something on the first page, I would have loved it if some guest-booker for a targeted local TV show had gotten wise to Borat's schtick, had had him on the show in the guise of having fallen for the character, and then at the last minute, had introduced him on live TV as "Sasha Baron Cohen", not as "Borat", and had asked him pointed questions about his intent to embarrass the show Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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