posted
Fair enough. If the conditions are bad enough that the people who have been there aren't willing to go back, isn't it shady to paint a pretty picture in an effort to get more people to take their place?
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Fair enough. If the conditions are bad enough that the people who have been there aren't willing to go back, isn't it shady to paint a pretty picture in an effort to get more people to take their place?
I honestly believe that the American population at this point has a pretty good idea about how bad things are over there. People join the military KNOWING what is expected of them, and either do it for the money (the high bonuses, the pay, the college being paid for, etc), or for some ideological reason.
I highly doubt anyone joins, gets there, and says "Holy crap, we're at WAR?"
Think of when Pippin joins the Citadel Guard in Minas Tirith. 'I suppose this is mostly for ceremonial purposes, they don't actually expect me to do any fighting...do they?'
I suspect most recruits are either in it for the money or they more closely mirror Merry. 'All my friends are going off to war, I would be ashamed not to.' 'I want to fight!'
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Tough to accurately critique my response when you don't know what I'm responding to.
I've seen it now, and yes, I think your satement is much more hyperbolic than the commercial.
Interesting. I would suggest that my hyperbolic statement is closer to the truth of the matter. The US Army is over in Iraq killing and being killed. The commercial paints a pretty picture about how awesome our military is, and conveys the impression that we're winners, we're strong, nobody can touch us!
How long have we been bogged down in Iraq? How many soldiers are dead from roadside bombs?
It's propaganda, and the worst part is that it's our own government trying to recruit our youth.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
I'm not sure if our main stumbling block in Iraq is needing more troops.
I think it's obvious to almost everyone in the entire world that things in Iraq are being colossally mishandled.
All the images are teamwork, training, salutes, smiling, hugs. We're in the middle of a war. You notice they don't show the people in the field ducking bullets, the soldiers breaking down doors to root out the insurgents, the field hospitals.
Alcohol and cigarette companies at least tell you that you should drink responsibly and that smoking causes cancer.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: The US Army defines strong as killing every last person who lives in a country that our President doesn't like.
[later]How much more hyperbolic is it than the ad itself?[/QB]
Far more. There is plenty to criticize about recruiting techniques, and tactics and strategies used in the Iraq War and other US wars, but stating that the Army kills entire countries is just silly, wrong, and pathetic.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:My statement was true in a Biblical sort of way.
I can't think of any reasonable interpretation that makes this sentence true.
In the same way that God killed every person on earth except Noah and his family, the US Army kills every person in a country that it doesn't agree with.
It's not literally true. It's an allegory, a cautionary tale. Read it as a reminder to people that when a super-powerful entity tells you to do something, and backs up their demands with deadly force, you might want to listen.
Seriously.
How does the phrase usually go? "On God's Green Earth." Nobody is strong enough to stop the US Army, and by implication God, since we have the backing from On High.
The commercial is frightening on many levels.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: Ok, I just watched it and I didn't find it nearly as effective as most of the Armed Forces commercials. The wording crossed over the line from powerful into cheesy several times and the images didn't seem to go with what they were saying. They also crossed back and forth from grandiose to colloquial several times in a way that was really jarring.
Am I the only person who thinks it was badly done?
Nope. And I usually like the US Armed Forces ads. This one was both jarring and chilling.
I did not like a lot of the linking/comparing bits. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers followed by a rampaging tank? Ugh.
And all the female soldiers were either:
sitting and listening (immediately followed by male soldiers doing something brawny and physical)
having trouble getting up a wall
being helped by a male soldier over said wall
Double ugh.
I agree with both rivka and blacwolve. Plus, big ol' block o' cheese. Even if I agreed with the basic sentiment, other recruitment commercials that I've seen have been much more effective (particularly regarding word choice), and much less...well, cheesy.
Then again, seeing as how I'm a female liberal academic in her late twenties, I'm not the target audience for the commercial. Having never been the target audience for this commercial (18-20something males), I have no idea how effective it might be to them. *shrug*
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:They need more troops because the ones we have keep getting killed and there's no end in sight.
More so, they keep getting killed because we keep starting wars. And we keep starting wars because too many Americans have fallen under the mistaken impression that the military is the most powerful force on Earth and can get us whatever we want. It seems like a vicious cycle....
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote: "Webster defines strong as having great physical power... The US Army defines strong as killing every last person who lives in a country that our President doesn't like.
Hey Webster, you got any tanks in that book? No, then shut the hell up."
* sitting and listening (immediately followed by male soldiers doing something brawny and physical) * having trouble getting up a wall * being helped by a male soldier over said wall
Double ugh.
Yeah, they missed the horde of pregnant GIs manning the phone desk.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Please take a minute and watch it, that is the point of the post, while I know you are a concientious poster, why on Earth would you join the discussion without doing the minimum to inform yourself?
That was the point of the first post. Too bad he wasn't responding to that one, so whether or not he'd seen the link was immaterial.
You don't control the flow of discussion in any thread, whether you started it or not. You'll be much happier here as soon as you figure that out.
------
I can't believe no one's commented on the coolest part of the commercial -- it's voiced by one of my favorite actors.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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The ad said that the us army thinks it's really powerful.
The poster said that the us army thinks it's really powerful, and is going to use that power to kill everyone that Bush doesn't like.
Since it's going a step further, doesn't that mean it's inherently more hyperbolic?
***
My favorite military ad was one my high school biology teacher used to keep posted on the wall.
It showed a bunch of soldiers in Columbia standing around a big pile of some drug or other they'd set fire to.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:I can't believe no one's commented on the coolest part of the commercial -- it's voiced by one of my favorite actors.
Isaac: Danny? Dan: Yeah? Isaac: You know I love you, don't you? Dan: Yeah. Isaac: And because I love you I can say this: no rich young white guy has ever gotten anywhere with me comparing himself to Rosa Parks.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I'd like to point out something that hasn't come up...
"The strength to obey."
*shivers*
I love our freedoms, I love the heart of this country, I respect people who put their life on the line for us...etc, but I couldn't turn myself into a weapon, to be aimed by others. Especially with this president, with this war.
Killing isn't always a sin, but you best believe that I want to be the deciding factor, not my CO, not a politician.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Um, is there a link somewhere that would allow me to see this commercial? I watch very little television, and I'd hate to pop into this particular discussion in ignorance.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The German army was inflicting casualties of 3 AFV's for every one lost, if you compared German to Allied tank production they would need to have destroyed 5 for every one lost to break even.
German tank commanders were some of the best I've ever seen/read about, one particular commander in a Panzer III went up against a KV-1 Heavy tank and won, he shot the enym turrent 6 times to no affect (the KV-1's turrent was pointed in the wrong direction) so as the KV-1 was turning its turret around onto the Panzer the commander had his gunner shoot the KV-1's barrel disabling the tank.
A Panther commander shot up 21 shermans in 44' he shot the first and then the last one the shermans couldnt break out fo the column so he shot up the remaining ones.
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posted
Give me a break. There are plenty of women who can and do serve in combat positions. I'm not objecting that there were MORE men than women shown -- that reflects reality.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My backhanded point was that having women in the military is a bad idea. They do serve, but their service creates enormous complications.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I would be against drafting women. But I have no problem with women who volunteer for the military. And I have to say, I'm kind of surprised that you do.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I find it interesting that you wouldn't draft women but you would let them serve voluntarily. I'm actually the opposite. If the situation is that desperate that you have to resort to a draft, then by all means, get every single person you can.
I liked serving with women when I was in because they offered sexual availability and were nice to look at, but, from an objective viewpoint, they weren't as effective soldiers as men for obvious physical reasons, and their presence in a unit filled with young men was often very disruptive and not good for unit cohesion. Both these reasons are kind of touched on by my pregnancy jibe.
I recognize that this point could have been made more effectively, but sometimes that imp of the perverse has his way with me. Not that it excuses my snarkiness, but just to explain it.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I would be against drafting women.
I've always wondered in current society why people are against drafting women?
Because Stormy has a point, to some degree. Women who are gestating have no business being in combat positions. So only women who are choosing not to have children (or not to have them for the next several years) should be signing up for the military. Forcing that choice on them is utterly repugnant, IMO.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
So Storm, if women who entered the military had to pass all the same tests men did and go through all the same training men did, would you be ok with women serving?
I ask because I really don't see, "men can't keep it in their pants" as a good reason for women not to serve.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Well, it's less that men can't keep it in their pants than it is that neither party can keep it in their pants, but everyone has a job to do in the unit.
Even not actually having sex, just wanting to screw someone skews unit cohesion and dynamics.
As to the tests and training, it would make me feel better about it if you set the physical standards the same.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I'd like to point out something that hasn't come up...
"The strength to obey."
*shivers*
I love our freedoms, I love the heart of this country, I respect people who put their life on the line for us...etc, but I couldn't turn myself into a weapon, to be aimed by others. Especially with this president, with this war.
Killing isn't always a sin, but you best believe that I want to be the deciding factor, not my CO, not a politician.
Then don't freakin join. It's not that hard of a decision is it?
The strength to obey, well, ok. In today's society a lot of people have problems with authority. Somehow, some still make it through basic with that problem. This causes multiple complications. At the base I work at that is all we have for retricted personnel (the druggies, AWOLs, what not). For some stupid reason they joined thinking they wouldn't have to be part of the military, or ever go to war. It's the military, you join thinking there is a possibility of going to war. I relate them to animal abusers that join PETA. It just doesn't make sense.
Mighty Cow, I'm failing to see your connection. The military doesn't kill everyone. Despite what you might think. But you have your mind set to that the military is just a bunch of genocidal murderers, so I'm not going to go further than this. It makes my head hurt.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Is equally repugnant to force the choice on men?
Pretty sure an expectant father is just as physically capable of serving as any other man. Unless he's experiencing Couvade or something.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
phsyical standards before they dropped them in canada was about 19 push ups and situps for men and about 16 pushupos and sit ups for woman.
As if a whole 3 pushups makes a difference.
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posted
On the other side of the conversation here, I am going to say that I have never had any urges like that with any woman in the service I have met. But then, I don't find a woman in uniform that appealing. I have no qualms with them serving. By all means, if they can do the job, let them. If they play any gender cards, that's it. Guys aren't always to blame for this kinda crap. Some women will use their body to get whatever, however they want.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: I'm curious -- how do you feel about "Don't ask, don't tell?"
I knew a couple gay soldiers when I was in and it didn't bother me. I can't speak for other people. I think it would also be a different ball game if people were openly gay. So, I guess maybe I think it's a good idea.
quote: So our units are units are good when faced with the stress of combat, but high school sexual politics are just too much for them to handle?
I feel safe.
Not sure if this was directed at me. If so, I don't get it.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I find a bit insulting the ad's implication that personal strength can only be found in the Army, or at the very least, that inner strength is better developed in people that have served in the Army than in those that have not served.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:So our units are units are good when faced with the stress of combat, but high school sexual politics are just too much for them to handle?
I don't know what the modern army is like, but the situation you mockingly described seems very possible to me.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I think the Army should be held to the same advertising standard as drug companies, that is, full disclosure of product information to consumers, including all side-effects and symptoms
“The Army is not for everyone. The Army may cause hostility, irritability, problems sleeping, anxiety, headaches, nausea, vomiting, swelling of the intenstines, and other minor complications. In particularly severe cases, death may occur. In the rare event of an erection lasting more than four hours, seek immediate medical help to avoid long-term injury. Ask your doctor if the Army is right for you! Individual results may vary.”
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I would be against drafting women.
I've always wondered in current society why people are against drafting women?
Personally I'm against drafting either men or women, as being too much of an interference with liberty. (Short of complete, all-out war with the space lizards, that is - and in that case, I don't care if you want to have kids, into the front line you go.)
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: (Short of complete, all-out war with the space lizards, that is - and in that case, I don't care if you want to have kids, into the front line you go.)
:lol:
That's pretty much my view.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:My statement was true in a Biblical sort of way.
I can't think of any reasonable interpretation that makes this sentence true.
In the same way that God killed every person on earth except Noah and his family, the US Army kills every person in a country that it doesn't agree with.
Um, God saying, "They hate their own blood." and applying it to all of humanity save Noah is a mite different then, "They all disagree with me!" Assuming the biblical account is to be trusted.
There are plenty of nations that disagree with the US's way of doing things, you do not see us rolling our tanks over their boundaries and annexing them. If we had the military might to do it, I doubt we would. Military in the hands of civilians FTW.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by camus: I think the Army should be held to the same advertising standard as drug companies, that is, full disclosure of product information to consumers, including all side-effects and symptoms
Then, so should everyone else that advertises. Get real, that is a bit too extreme. It is a VOLUNTEER service. Yes there was a draft back in Nam. Now days it is almost 100% volunteer. I say almost because I have worked with a few where they were given a choice between jail or the military. To me that is not entirely volunteer, but at least they are given a choice.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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