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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » According to you, is the Earth less than 6,000 years old? (Page 6)

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Author Topic: According to you, is the Earth less than 6,000 years old?
Lyrhawn
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Hey, it was there for you riv. The score of the Ohio-Michigan game was the winner of the Pick-4 lotto in Ohio yesterday. The Ohio lottery had to pay out 4.5 million in winnings.
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Icarus
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"A Fistful of Dagonees"

[Cool]

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Dagonee
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"When a man with a 45 meets a man with a rifle... you said the man with the pistol's a dead man. Let's see if that's true. "

[Cool]

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Ron Lambert
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How do we know T-Rex couldn't swim? But even if Leviathon was not T-Rex, it could have been some other aquatic dinosaur, of which there were many.

Doing a search in Yahoo on "Aquatic Dinosaurs," I came across an article by Jeffrey J. Harrison which contains the following:

"Words used for Dinosaurs in the Bible

"The primary word for dinosaurs or dragons in the Hebrew Scriptures (the Hebrew Old Testament, known as the Masoretic text or MT) is tannin or in the plural tanninim.* The Hebrew root of this word (tanan) may indicate that these animals made a howling sound (that they were 'howlers'). Tannin is often translated in the Old Greek (the Septuagint or LXX)** with the Greek word drakon (drakontes in the plural; the source of our English word 'dragon'), or when it is an aquatic reptile with the Greek word keetos (keetee in the plural), indicating a large sea monster. Artistic representations of the keetos that swallowed Jonah made by early Greek-speaking Christians show it as a large, dragon-like aquatic reptile."

Link for above: http://www.totheends.com/dino.html#Words

Note the interesting suggestion that the sea creature that swallowed Jonah may actually have been an aquatic dinosaur.

Later in the same article is this commentary on the Genesis creation account:

"Gen. 1:21: 'And God created the great tanninim (keeteeLXX) and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind.' These 'great tanninim' must have been the most remarkable creatures in the sea to be singled out in this way, above all other sea creatures, in the Creation account. These are clearly the great dinosaur-like sea monsters of which legends abound around the world. The word 'great' indicates that they were of remarkable size, but also implies that there were other kinds of tanninim that were not as large. (NAS has here 'great sea monsters”; NKJ has 'great sea creatures.')"

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Dagonee
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quote:
These 'great tanninim' must have been the most remarkable creatures in the sea to be singled out in this way, above all other sea creatures, in the Creation account. These are clearly the great dinosaur-like sea monsters of which legends abound around the world.
This person has a vey low threshold for using the word "clearly."
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Stephan
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Even if the T-Rex could swim, there is no way he spent more time swimming then walking.

"And G-d created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that creepeth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after its kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and G-d saw that it was good."

Also they are not being singled out. It mentions
sea creatures, land creatures, and flying creatures.

I like the way some one else explained their belief (can't remember who or where). Made it sound like 6,000 years ago God created 6 billion years of history. I can accept that.

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KarlEd
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quote:
This person has a vey low threshold for using the word "clearly."
Clearly.
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skillery
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
... a large, dragon-like aquatic reptile

Cross-reference the following:

Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, "My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself."

And:
Figure 9 from Facsimile No.1 from the Book of Abraham

And we have a crocodile NOT T-Rex.

Old Testament verses about strange animals do not necessarily refer to dinosaurs. There are modern animals that also match the Biblical descriptions.

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Ron Lambert
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Except that catching a crocodile is not nearly so difficult as attempting to catch leviathan as described in Job 41.

Of course, the metaphoric reference is to a "great" dragon. How big can Nile crocodiles get, anyway?

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KarlEd
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Maybe the "great" wasn't in reference to size. Maybe they were just really really tasty.
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BlackBlade
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Maybe you are all guessing on what a vague passage means.


Isa. 27: 1
1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. "

I think the dragon in this passage is the devil. But I am open to the idea that leviathan and dragons are all concepts that have remained with mankind since the actual dinosaurs went extinct. There are tons of scriptures that reference dragons.

Or you could be like my grandmother and believe dinosaurs are all a myth and scientists planted the bones that they themselves artificially created. My grandmother is a funny lady.

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rivka
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Why so desperate to find evidence of dinosaurs? There's no mention of kangaroos or Windows XP either. Because neither had any need to be there.

Nor do dinosaurs.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Why so desperate to find evidence of dinosaurs? There's no mention of kangaroos or Windows XP either. Because neither had any need to be there.

Nor do dinosaurs.

Dinosaurs are cool, they always ought to be mentioned.
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rivka
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Cooler than kangaroos, koalas, and wallabies? I think not.
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Sharpie
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I think Windows XP was covered under pestilence and plague.
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KarlEd
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[ROFL]
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skillery
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I'd be interested to know how the giant people mentioned in the O.T. (Ankims, Emins, Zamzummins, Og's bedstead, etc.) fit into the evolutionary scheme.

I guess if giants were constantly being placed at the forefront of battles there would be some selective pressure against them.

Perhaps giant people once faced off against giant reptiles in a battle for supremacy. That would make a cool video game.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Why so desperate to find evidence of dinosaurs? There's no mention of kangaroos or Windows XP either. Because neither had any need to be there.

Nor do dinosaurs.

The nachash was a dinosaur. That's why they're gone.
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BlackBlade
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Rivka: Ok ok

Take Deinonychus,
3 Meters long
1.5 meters tall at the hip

Huge brain cavity, activity rate suggesting warm bloodedness. Most likely hunted in coordinated packs, and with brain masses that big, probably highly organized.

Incidentally those Velociraptors you saw in Jurassic Park were actually modeled after Deinonychus.

Or Supersaurus he was 35 meters long, to say nothing of its height. His scapula (shoulder bone) by itself was 6 feet tall! I've always seen elephants as majestic, but Supersaurus was something else!

http://www.dinosaursociety.com/images/styracosaurus.jpg
Styracosaurus, just look at that thing, WHY CAN'T WE HAVE IT BACK!?

Sharpie: Comedy Gold [Big Grin]

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Why so desperate to find evidence of dinosaurs? There's no mention of kangaroos or Windows XP either. Because neither had any need to be there.

Nor do dinosaurs.

The nachash was a dinosaur. That's why they're gone.
*blink*

Uh . . . never heard that one before. Source?



BB, so they were big and nasty. Who cares?

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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The nachash was a dinosaur. That's why they're gone.

...I think you're kidding. Right?

Doesn't fit what we know, but very creative. [Smile]

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rivka:
[qb] Why so desperate to find evidence of dinosaurs? There's no mention of kangaroos or Windows XP either. Because neither had any need to be there.

Nor do dinosaurs.

BB, so they were big and nasty. Who cares?
Deinonychus at 5-6 feet tall is hardly BIG. I was trying to project some of the variety behind dinosaurs. Have you ever seen how kangaroos reproduce? Spewing out that barely formed cluster of cells that has to climb its way into the pouch and latch onto a tit and form from there. It gives one the notion that were we all kangaroos, abortion would be an entirely different beast to outline.

If I could have all the dinosaures or just wallabies, koalas, and kangaroos the choice for me would be obvious.

Of course I am discarding the ecological difficulties of having all the dinosaurs back, I just mean conceptually I think the sum value of dinosaurs is greater then those 3 mammals.

Koalas to me are like Panda's, they eat only ONE kind of food and you have to PERSUADE them to reproduce. With all I understand of biology its a miracle to me both animals are not extinct yet.

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King of Men
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Why are you arguing about whether a document 3000 years old, translated and retranslated through any number of languages, and exceedingly vague in the first place, might possibly refer to dinosaurs? There's a much simpler way to decide: Just date the dinosaur bones and see if they were around in Biblical times. Now, I realise Ron, being a creationist, doesn't accept the validity of dating methods; but then at least you could argue about something real, as opposed to "This is clearly a dinosaur!" "No it's not!"
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skillery
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I've been to the Grand Canyon a few times, and I wonder how long it would take for the Pre-Cambrian life forms found at the bottom of the canyon to live, die, get buried, fossilize, recede below a mile of rock, and then erode their way back to the surface.

Of course my viewpoint is slightly biased, being the product of about 1000 years of geologic stability, but I suppose with a couple of fly-bys from some cooperative planets we could push some shallow-water marine life down a mile, and then with enough heat, concentrated chemicals, and abrasive particles, we could bring it all back to the surface within a Biblical time frame.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Shmuel:
quote:
Originally posted by Lisa:
The nachash was a dinosaur. That's why they're gone.

...I think you're kidding. Right?

Doesn't fit what we know, but very creative. [Smile]

I could be kidding. I'm probably mostly kidding. But who knows?
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King of Men
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By the way, the battle cry for the scientist side of this kind of thing is "VAAAAARVES!" Google 'em, they're fun.
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skillery
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quote:
they're fun.
Not for the poor college students who have to count them. Two million in a 260-ft core sample.
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Dan_raven
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I did some strange thinking over the past weekend. I took the assumption that YE Creationism is 100% correct, that 6000 years or so ago God in his infinite wisdom and with his infinite power created the universe. (Hey, I’ve considered stranger premises before and kept my sanity, well most of it.)

This is not to be a straw-man attack on YE. I don’t want to propose flawed analysis of what YE would entail, then pat myself on the back by flaunting those flaws. The assumptions I am using are standard that I’ve heard in debates before.

Most important, for my analysis, is the idea that starlight was created in-transit. The photons and all the other recordable radiations that modern astronomers use to create the current hypotheses on cosmology were all set at the time of creation, in motion towards Earth. The light we see in most of the stars at night never derived from those stars, but were created by God directly.

My first question was “Why would God do this.” It seems like God as Prankster—pulling a fast one to force those who use the logical mind God gave us to sin and agnosticism.

You can’t ask Why of God though. God is perfect and we are not. God has a POV that encompasses everything. It is like an Ant questioning why we drop our Doritos where we do.

Asking Why is not a valid question when it comes to God.

Or it’s the only valid question, but assuming we know the answer is not very logical.

My second question had far more interesting speculation. “Did God create the entire universe of billions of galaxies or did God just create the stream of photons (and other radiations) that we perceive as the light of the stars? The answers to this question I can detail in two separate cosmologies—one is Big U and one is Little u.

If God was going to all the trouble of creating the light from distant stars to Earth, why not save time and effort and just create the light. Why make galaxies billions of light years away when creation will have completed its course before even light from those stars could be seen?

Stars for most of humanity’s existence were not giant balls of incandescent gas. They were points of light that moved across the night sky. So when God created the stars in Genesis—perhaps he just created the points of light, or streams of light. He created many, and in such ways as they appear to be stars, galaxies, quasars, clouds of dust and nebulae and all the rest of the astronomical encyclopedia.

I am tempted to ask “Why?” again. But I have ruled that question out. After all, without stars as suns of other worlds would we have Science Fiction? Would we be missing Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Serenity? Would we be missing Ender’s Game? Would we be missing Hatrack? Isn’t Hatrack enough of a reason for God to create the stars that we humans misunderstand as other worlds?

Now if all the information that we have of extra-solar existence is in fact Angels making lights for our benefits, we get into some real existential questions here. What is real and what is false data—or God planted data? Do the planets exist or are they just figments of divine light emissions. Sure, we’ve sent unmanned ships to explore the planets, but they have only sent us information electronically. That is data sent via the electromagnetic radiation. This is stuff we already think God may be manipulating, and that we perceive with a false sense of Universe.

Perhaps Heaven is just beyond the orbit of the Moon? Ships that fly past it crash into Heaven. Their data, however, continues to be sent back to Earth for whatever Divine Reason God wills it.

Unless, of course, that the whole moon landing was faked. That’s an entire different thought process I won’t delve into. Besides, we know heaven isn’t just high up in the sky. We have satellites that provide us with phone service, TV service, and death rays. Those are technologically proven—aren’t they? You can’t convince me that Dish Network is divinely influenced. I mean I love my TIVO, but that’s going too far.

If we can’t trust what we see with our eyes, with our telescopes, with our antenna, who knows what may be really going on. Maybe the earth is at the center of the universe? If the “Crab Nebula” could be faked, why couldn’t the orbits of the planets?

Now I like the idea that the Stars are just angelic light projections, and that come the final battle, the stars will descend upon the earth, each a small light emitting Angel and fight Satan. Well, I think that would make a cool visual for a movie anyway. Still the u cosmology is just that—a small u. I find it claustrophobic, lacking in the infinite that I associate with God.

The Big U is interesting if we do ask Why. The big U says that God, in one day, made all the stars in heaven. In other words, he created the universe, all the galaxies, stars, systems and planets all at one time. Our microscopes don’t lie. Our antenna are correct.

Why would God do this? God is omnipotent, so he doesn’t have to conserve resources or power, but still, that is a whole lot of creation going on. Why?

Who says that the Earth is the only planet God created life on during that week?

Now we might assume that all over the galaxies, all over the giant Universe, 6000 or so years ago untold numbers of Adams awoke. Did they all look alike? Well, we are all made in God’s image, but God does not have a set image. Diversity seems to be a constant in the universe, so I don’t see why a universe full of human clones has to be essential.

Now take a moment and try to accept the power and scale of this creation. God did not create a small garden, or an angelic valley. He created a universe so vast we still are not positive of its size, stretching as far as light can fly in 4 billion years plus.

Speaking of light, why did he create the light between all these worlds? Here is where the Why becomes interesting. Perhaps the Why is to start us wanting to meet those other people. Perhaps the Why is to drive us out amongst the stars to meet the rest of God’s children.

Take a moment and try to accept the power and scale of that.

There is, of course, one major problem with this cosmology. Ok, there are many, but for now we’ll focus on one.

The Hebrews should have no problem with other chosen peoples on other planets. After all, God only promised them Jerusalem and the rest of the world recognizing their importance. (You can all shoot me now for misremembering what exactly the covenants promise the faithful of Israel when they return to Jerusalem)

The Christians, however, have a big problem. Jesus is the one and only son of God. Does our planet just happen to be the lucky one where he was born and died? That would be difficult, for how do you spread the word of the Savior when the Savior died for your sins light years away? To a guy from Rigel III, what is Rome or a cross?

Did Jesus go on a galactic walk-a-bout, spreading his story and his name across Galaxies? How long would that take?

Or were there multiple Jesu, born on each planet, dieing for the sins of each world. Perhaps when they say Jesus is the Son of God and Man, on Rigel III WRERU is the son of God and Rigellia.

I don’t know where I am going with this, except the fact that YE is fun to play with.

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rivka
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quote:
The Hebrews should have no problem with other chosen peoples on other planets. After all, God only promised them Jerusalem and the rest of the world recognizing their importance.
Why would there be other chosen people? Why assume that every planet with life is merely a reflection of our own? How incredibly boring.

quote:
Or were there multiple Jesu, born on each planet, dieing for the sins of each world. Perhaps when they say Jesus is the Son of God and Man, on Rigel III WRERU is the son of God and Rigellia.
Didn't I read a short story like that a numbers of years back?
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skillery
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
...the idea that starlight was created in-transit. The photons and all the other recordable radiations that modern astronomers use to create the current hypotheses on cosmology were all set at the time of creation, in motion towards Earth. The light we see in most of the stars at night never derived from those stars, but were created by God directly.

Maybe God waited to fill in the non-visible spectra from the various stars until somebody started tinkering with radio telescopes and IR and UV imaging.

And God would have had to pre-program into our little light show interruptions and pulses and explosions.

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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
The Hebrews should have no problem with other chosen peoples on other planets. After all, God only promised them Jerusalem and the rest of the world recognizing their importance. (You can all shoot me now for misremembering what exactly the covenants promise the faithful of Israel when they return to Jerusalem)

We pretty much hold that if there's extraterrestrial life, none of it has free will. Only human beings, of all of God's creations, have free will.
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rivka
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While that is certainly an opinion, I don't believe it is the only one.

And in any case, until and unless we actually make contact with extra-terrestrials, it's strictly theoretical.

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Shmuel
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_raven:
The Hebrews should have no problem with other chosen peoples on other planets.

As usual, there are wildly diverse opinions on this one. [Smile] That said, I'd agree that it's not a major issue either way.
quote:
The Christians, however, have a big problem. Jesus is the one and only son of God. Does our planet just happen to be the lucky one where he was born and died? That would be difficult, for how do you spread the word of the Savior when the Savior died for your sins light years away? To a guy from Rigel III, what is Rome or a cross?
While I doubt this really represents a major theological issue (unless and until other sentient life is found, this is a moot point), it should be noted that more than one theologian and SF writer has used this as the springboard for speculative fiction. I rather like C.S. Lewis's Space trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, and That Hideous Strength) myself.
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kmbboots
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Dan, my assumption is that, if there is life on other planets (and I like to think there is), that an infinite and loving God has figured out a plan for that life as well.

I like some of your possibilities; here's another: Perhaps life on other planets never "fell". Their metaphorical* Adam and Eve didn't eat the metaphorical apple - whatever that means. They stayed "with" God so they wouldn't need Jesus to mend that rift. Lewis played with this in one of his books in the trilogy (can't remember which right now).


*IMO

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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
quote:
they're fun.
Not for the poor college students who have to count them. Two million in a 260-ft core sample.
Bah, what are undergraduates for? [Razz] Anyway, I was actually thinking of the Lake Taigetsu ones, with only 18000 or so.
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skillery
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
quote:
they're fun.
Not for the poor college students who have to count them. Two million in a 260-ft core sample.
Bah, what are undergraduates for?
I started out majoring in geology at BYU but bailed out after the second semester. Guess I quit just in time. Missed all the fun. Interestingly, BYU has a fairly strong geology program, not as big as the University of Arizona's, but big enough that they've got a sizable fossil collection under the football stadium, this in spite of being a church-sponsored school.

I remember a few second-semester students getting upset about evolution and 5 billion year-old-earth that is required learning for anyone who hopes to become a competent geologist. Our professor dredged up some obscure quote by Brigham Young, saying the earth is millions of years old. He was off by a few zeros, but that quote seemed to soothe us tender, young Mormon seminary graduates.

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Kwea
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steven, stop being a poseur.
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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
While that is certainly an opinion, I don't believe it is the only one.

And in any case, until and unless we actually make contact with extra-terrestrials, it's strictly theoretical.

[interested]What test could be performed to determine whether or not the aliens had free will?[/interested]
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Lisa
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I can't imagine.
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skillery
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You'd also have to prove that the extraterrestrial wasn't God.

quote:
Only human beings, of all of God's creations, have free will.
Then either the behavior of cats is totally random, or cats have some way of receiving orders from the cat god.
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Stephan
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What test can be performed to prove that WE have free will?
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Noemon
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I think it involves peeing on a little stick of chemically treated cardboard and seeing if it turns blue.
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brojack17
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle:
I respect the scientific disciplines, see no problem having my kids learn evolutionary theory in school and yet also believe strongly in a creator God. And I don't feel like there's any conflict there. I just accept that I may never know the intricacies of the creation of the universe until I can ask God about it.

So, do you think there will be a FAQ board when we get to heaven. I'm sure this one will come up quite often for God. Maybe God is the one that invented FAQ pages. [Wink]
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skillery
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...or perhaps cats were created by someone else: [Evil Laugh]
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Dan_raven
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Yes there is a test for Free Will.

"Do you want the blue pill or the red pill?"

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The White Whale
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I think it was Hyperion by Dan Simmons where the priest was travelling around the known universe (and especially to the planet Hyperion) to find signs of Jesus of the cross.

If I remember right, he reasoned that if he could find proof that other peoples believed in Jesus or the Bible, that would be final proof that God exists.

But if he didn't find proof, it didn't prove anything either way. I always thought that was kind of unfair. There is no way to prove that God doesn't exist, but there are ways to prove that God does exist.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if we did find aliens (or they found us) and they also believed in God/Jesus/the Bible, then that would be proof that they had free will. If they did not believe, then it doesn't prove anything either way.

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KarlEd
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quote:
but there are ways to prove that God does exist.
Only for certain definitions of "God".
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Will B
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Dan Raven's look at what a young earth would mean is interesting. (It also sounds like a good story coming on.) A big stage set, with an incomprehensible motive for the stage designer.

Recommended reading: Calculating God, Robert Sawyer I think it is. (No young earth, but still sort of relevant.)

The issue of the Incarnation is separate, of course. Another good source of stories. I can't see any theological difficulties, though.

quote:
The Christians, however, have a big problem. Jesus is the one and only son of God. Does our planet just happen to be the lucky one where he was born and died? That would be difficult, for how do you spread the word of the Savior when the Savior died for your sins light years away? To a guy from Rigel III, what is Rome or a cross?
Surely God's powerful enough to spread the word without our help. And if he's everywhere, he won't have far to go.

quote:
Did Jesus go on a galactic walk-a-bout, spreading his story and his name across Galaxies? How long would that take?
We're talking divinity here -- it would take as long as he wanted it to, or no time at all.

quote:
Or were there multiple Jesu, born on each planet, dieing for the sins of each world. Perhaps when they say Jesus is the Son of God and Man, on Rigel III WRERU is the son of God and Rigellia.
I still don't see a problem.

Fun topic, though. Recommended reading:
Sin of Origin by John Barnes. (Not a believer himself, but his story is about a Christian mission to an alien world.)
Speaker for the Dead, of course, by OSC
"Religion and Rocketry," C S Lewis, an essay on this topic.

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David Bowles
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The idea that God, 6000 years ago, created the universe so that it appeared to be @16 billion years old just to test the faith of people in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries is so utterly contemptible and insane that, if it turns out to be true, I'll ask to be roasted for all eternity rather than adore such a being.

Oh, wait...

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The White Whale
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Well put, David Bowles, well put.
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