quote:Originally posted by Nikisknight: Well, good. I won't claim to be entirely up to date on his or most politicians' past or even ideas. I'd heard about the connections I mentioned, but not much and it might be rumors.
There are some connections. He wrote a column in the University of Minnesota's student newspaper defending Louis Farrakhan while he was in law school. He organized a Minnesota delegation to the Million Man March, which was run by the Nation of Islam. He was not a member of the Nation of Islam, and has since said that he didn't scrutinize the group closely enough before he worked with them, and didn't agree with their anti-semitic positions. He's also reached out to the local Jewish community since then, and has a pretty impressive human rights record all around. (As a lawyer.)
The connections to CAIR are a bit shakier. Three (I think) people who are members of CAIR donated money to his campaign.
All of it was discussed in the papers, on the radio, in the candidates forums and debates before the election. He answered the issues raised to my satisfaction. I have no doubt that he is a loyal American and will be an excellent Congressman.
I'll also note that he told a local paper that he'd be using the Qur'an in his swearing in ceremony right after he was elected. The information's been out there for almost a month. Nobody cared until this radio host picked it up. And as far as I can tell, that's stil the case here. They've been a couple of editorials about what a fuss the blogs are making about this, but it's certainly not water-cooler discussion in my circles, for Republicans or Democrats. It's a non-issue.
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If we are to swear on a book that reflects the values of our forefathers, perhaps we should choose a volume of Hume or Thomas Paine. Locke or Rousseau or Voltaire. This country could not have sprung forth from "a Christian nation" until that idea of Christianity was tempered by the Enlightenment. In quite a few Christian nations, democracy did not spontaneously occur. As a matter of fact, the Christian religion has been an obstacle to democracy. And our founders knew this. "Man is endowed by his creator with certain inalienable rights" is intentional in its refusal to specify whose God. And Nikisknight would indeed be surprised to learn that Muslims do in fact worship the same God as Christians. As for this:
quote: My God wishes to be freely chosen by people. The Islamic God wishes apostates killed by his followers. My God judges each person on their merits. The Islamic God sanctions honor killings. These are not the same Gods.
Seriously. Have you not heard of the Crusades? The Inquisition? Do you really think that Muslims have a corner on religious coersion? I agree that killing people in the name of God is an abomination, but Muslims are hardly the only religion to make that mistake. And when Muslims do make that mistake, it is no more a reflection on God or Islam than it is when Christians get it wrong.
quote:Christians and Muslims both follow the same God, Nikisknight.
However, try going into a mosque and asking them if they worship the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ask to be shown an old testament. Ask them what reward Allah has for the Jews and Christians, since they simply worship him by a different name.
If they do not take offence, if they agree with you that it is the same God, I'll be wonderfully surprised. But this isn't the picture I see in the world.
By all means, then, you should try this yourself, before assuming what such an outcome would be. I would invite you to come visit my mosque, but I doubt you would have the time to fly to Europe.
We also hold all Jewish and Christian saints in reverence.
You will say that I do not speak for all Muslims. Fair enough. However, that same distinction applies to all religions. I would suggest you read the Kor’an, as it contains answers to all the theological questions you might ask.
When you say that our Gods are different, and you say that the Islamic God wishes apostates killed by his followers, that the Islamic God sanctions honor killings, it is then that you offend and sadden us.
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So Rotar Mode, what do you think about the cartoon riots? It's hard to take the "offend and sadden us" stuff seriously when we heard so few voices of even partial moderation during that business.
What do you think of "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'" (Sahih Bukhari 4:52.177)?
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quote: However, try going into a mosque and asking them if they worship the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Ask to be shown an old testament. Ask them what reward Allah has for the Jews and Christians, since they simply worship him by a different name.
If they do not take offense, if they agree with you that it is the same God, I'll be wonderfully surprised.
*laugh* Here's a question: how many mosques have you been in? In all the mosques I've been in, they would have gladly and cheerfully agreed that it's the same God.
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I've been in quite a few and I would consider it very rude to try and argue theology in a mosque.
As a missionary one of my converts had an Indonesian maid, and she was the most friendly woman. We asked her to try reading the Book of Mormon and she very politely refused, and asked me to read the Koran. I said, "OK how about this, Ill read the Koran cover to cover if you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover.
She cheerfully refused, I expected nothing less, I was kinda sad when she went back to Indonesia, she was a really decent woman.
edit: Sorry I didn't clarify. The woman was from Indonesia which is predominantly Muslim. She was a Muslim.
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The freedoms and values that some of these Christians are holding up as proof of Biblical superiority, and Islamic barbarism are things forced upon Christianity by barbarous secularists like Rouseau or Payne. Every Islamic crime listed here are crimes our Christian ancestors not only committed, but in some cases, used as basis for sainthood. Honor killings, murder of apostates, sectarian violence, all belong in the bloody history of Christianity.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: I find this quite amusing.
The freedoms and values that some of these Christians are holding up as proof of Biblical superiority, and Islamic barbarism are things forced upon Christianity by barbarous secularists like Rouseau or Payne. Every Islamic crime listed here are crimes our Christian ancestors not only committed, but in some cases, used as basis for sainthood. Honor killings, murder of apostates, sectarian violence, all belong in the bloody history of Christianity.
Dan while true, I honestly do not think you can effectively back those acts up with Christian scripture, at least not if you accept Jesus' word that the codes of the Old Testament were concluded with his death/ressurection.
I have always had a few qualms with Muslim doctrine but I would be happy to hear somebody explain how I am reading those passages wrong. Or give me a contextual basis that clarifies the meaning.
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BB, I don't think those crimes were justified by the gospels, either, but, for centuries we certainly managed to use Scripture to justify atrocity. And some Christians still do. (See, Phelps for example.)
I also agree that if someone were kind enough to take the time to instruct us on context, etc. that would be a gift.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: So Rotar Mode, what do you think about the cartoon riots? It's hard to take the "offend and sadden us" stuff seriously when we heard so few voices of even partial moderation during that business.
What do you think of "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'" (Sahih Bukhari 4:52.177)?
To the first part: I hate to respond to a question with another question, but the analogy fits, I believe. If the gay pride festival in Jerusalem had caused a violent confrontation, and Orthodox Jews had killed people expressing gay pride, what would you think? And yes, there were plenty of moderate Muslim voices to be heard speaking out against the violence, but most if not all of the airtime was given to the violent ones.
To your second part, Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari (to whom the Sahih Bukhari is attributed) was an enlightened scholar, but he was human. One of his more prominent faults was anti-semitism. The Sahih Bukhari is not the Kor'an. While Sunnis believe that it is a religious text of great importance, it is also not accepted as the word of God, but one of man. Accepting every single word as doctrine would be parallel to what was done by Christians during the Inquisition.
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The Qu'ran itself is very explicit over and over in separating Islam from Christianity, Muslims are absolutely forbidden from deifying Christ, "Joining God's with God is certain damnation."
If you believe in the Trinity, the Father Son and Holy Spirit and that these three are one, you are damned too a Muslim, so no, the God of Islam is not all of my God, my God includes Christ the Lord.
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We do not deify Christ(peace be upon him). We do not worship God in the same way you do, Sax. That does not mean that God is not God, God of Christians and Muslims alike.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: So Rotar Mode, what do you think about the cartoon riots? It's hard to take the "offend and sadden us" stuff seriously when we heard so few voices of even partial moderation during that business.
What do you think of "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'" (Sahih Bukhari 4:52.177)?
To the first part: I hate to respond to a question with another question, but the analogy fits, I believe. If the gay pride festival in Jerusalem had caused a violent confrontation, and Orthodox Jews had killed people expressing gay pride, what would you think? And yes, there were plenty of moderate Muslim voices to be heard speaking out against the violence, but most if not all of the airtime was given to the violent ones.
To your second part, Muhammad ibn Ismail al-Bukhari (to whom the Sahih Bukhari is attributed) was an enlightened scholar, but he was human. One of his more prominent faults was anti-semitism. The Sahih Bukhari is not the Kor'an. While Sunnis believe that it is a religious text of great importance, it is also not accepted as the word of God, but one of man. Accepting every single word as doctrine would be parallel to what was done by Christians during the Inquisition.
Thank you for your answers. May your numbers increase in Islam.
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: The Qu'ran itself is very explicit over and over in separating Islam from Christianity, Muslims are absolutely forbidden from deifying Christ, "Joining God's with God is certain damnation."
If you believe in the Trinity, the Father Son and Holy Spirit and that these three are one, you are damned too a Muslim, so no, the God of Islam is not all of my God, my God includes Christ the Lord.
Sax, Jews and Muslims are monotheists. We don't buy your Certs-style theology ("It's three! Three! Three gods in one!). Personally, I don't believe that the god you worship is the same one that I worship. I worship the One God, Creator of everything, who is indivisible and One in the most absolute sense. I don't worship a deity modeled after a hundred other gods who walked the earth, were killed, rose after three days, etc.
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quote:I don't believe that the god you worship is the same one that I worship.
So do you then believe that there is some other God than the one you worship?
When God answers my prayers, is that evidence that there is a God besides your God or is your God doing the answering even though I do not fully understand him?
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That is what I said, any group that added the concept of Hell after meeting the Greeks and promoted Lucifer from angel to adversary of God after putting all the bad on God went out of style needs to be a little careful about cracking wise about borrowed concepts, Noah did not experience the first flood, just because the Jews are old does not make them original.
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quote:The Qu'ran itself is very explicit over and over in separating Islam from Christianity, Muslims are absolutely forbidden from deifying Christ
And yet they believe it's the same GOD. They just don't think Christ WAS that God.
I understand why some people might consider that a dealbreaker, but then again there are more than a few Christian sects who don't consider Christ to be God Himself, too.
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Rotar Mode: Thank you for that response, it certainly makes me wonder how much of what I thought, "was in the Koran," actually is. Could you help me understand the scriptural foundation that if a Muslim wishes to marry an unbeliever that they MUST convert, and that conversion to other religions is not allowed. I've always wished to understand those principles better.
General Sax: Knock it off please, nobody is suggesting that Christians, Jews, and Muslims can all be completely correct, but we can all at least agree that we are trying to all find God and live in a manner he wants us to. Throwing out, "Three Gods in ONE!" would be akin to Lisa screaming, "Christ was not the messiah!" and Rotar screaming, "There is one God Allah and Mohamed is his prophet!" BTW Peace be upon them both.
Such incoherent and for all practical purposes, worthless babble serves NO useful purpose. I have not seen a Muslim on this board for quite some time and I would like to avail myself of his/her knowledge without you chasing him/her away.
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If you claim you cannot follow that then I believe you are being... what is the word... disingenuous. You understand it perfectly, so do all Christians, Jews and Muslims, it is just not PC to point to differences, it is all the rage to be inclusive and pretend we all are standing on common ground.
Fine, but it is just a pretty lie that liberals are happy to throw out because they really have no faith, but those with faith are not quite so quick to call Allah the same entity as the Trinity of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. We do understand that JHVH is the Father portion of the Trinity however making the Jews our poor cousins...
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As for the rest all I have done is state the case of the Christian point of view, I find it interesting that such is called Ranting (as in the result of madness) Insisting (as in demanding that everyone follow what I believe) or Proclaiming (not allowing anyone else to state their opinion.)
I am doing none of these things, believe as you wish, state your POV as it suits you, but I would be a coward if I believed a thing and did not say that I believed it, I would be a fool to believe a thing and then allow that I was uncertain about it, if I where uncertain, why would I believe? I would be agnostic as I was in the years of my youth.
However I am tired of the public face of Islam and the way we all pretend to believe it, echoing the placating platitudes that are put forth by face men who in private worship, pray teach and believe that when they have purged the world and established one religion Christ will be torn down to the stature of a failed Prophet who's premature death at the hands of the Jews kept him from delivering the Qur'an and necessitated the hand delivery of the book to a more successful prophet Mohammad.
I will not pretend to believe the lie, I will point it out when I see it, sorry, the Muslims should have the courage to be up front about it, the sad thing is that the dumb but honest Muslims are the terrorists, the dangerous ones are the ones who tell us they are our brothers and we have nothing to fear while they play the long con. They might win, because we are not paying attention to the man behind the curtain.
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1) Not all Christians are Trinitarians. 2) By your standards, the God of the Mormons isn't the same God as the God of the "Christians."
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quote:I don't believe that the god you worship is the same one that I worship.
So do you then believe that there is some other God than the one you worship?
No. And when God said "You shall have no other gods before Me", that doesn't indicate that other gods exist either.
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quote: How can we be your cousins, Sax, if you're our illegitimate children?
By your rules that would make us Jews, of course that was how you ended up creating the Muslims so you might want to be careful with that.
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Are we talking about "most people," or are we saying that Mormons and non-Trinitarian Christians don't worship the same God as Trinitarian Christians?
That one's God doesn't possess all the same attributes as the other's God is obvious. But there's enough overlap that I think we can generously grant "sameness," unless the conversation is going to deal with the specifics of doctrine.
Otherwise, the logical conclusion here is that each major doctrinal difference results in the development of a new "God," rather than just a different perspective on the same one.
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You are the one who brought 'most people' into it so only you can say what that refers too.
I think that the technical term for calling two different things the same is "wrong" or "false" or mistaken if you are in the mood to be kind.
So the logical conclusion is that you use logic in the hope that nobody else will notice you palming that card.
As for God being new, I believe that the position we take is that Christ was God revealed to us, the word made flesh, knowing Christ is knowing God better then he was known before. I think of it as the shift from Newton to Einstein, one worked fine in its day but the other is more true and needful for the real precise stuff.
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CAN I SCREAM TOO? IT LOOKS LIKE SO MUCH FUN.
Ahem...
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Rotar Mode: Thank you for that response, it certainly makes me wonder how much of what I thought, "was in the Koran," actually is. Could you help me understand the scriptural foundation that if a Muslim wishes to marry an unbeliever that they MUST convert, and that conversion to other religions is not allowed. I've always wished to understand those principles better.
You're very welcome.
If you ever wanted to know exactly what was in the Kor'an, there's an easier way than asking any Muslim that pops up. You could read it yourself.
Most religions have as tenant the idea that they are 100% right. Therefore, the idea of preservation is very central to Islam. I believe, however, that a lot of the violent imagery used in some texts is metaphorical. If you would like more details, ask away.
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You know General Sax, I think you'd do the Christian cause a lot more good by behaving like a Christian, then by behaving horribly and telling everyone you're a Christian.
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quote: If you ever wanted to know exactly what was in the Kor'an, there's an easier way than asking any Muslim that pops up. You could read it yourself.
As a former Baha'i and someone not unsympathetic to liberal Islam, I would recommend that someone only read the Qu'ran in conjunction with some commentary. The text by itself is rather jarring in places, and -- like the Torah -- really benefits from hundreds of years of scriptural lawyers filing down the rough edges.
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I have read it, and most of the violent imagery is 'news reel footage' of an ongoing war that is being fought to take Mecca. Not a bit of metaphor and in fact the book itself repeats over and over that it is a simple easy to understand text not meant to be hard to comprehend. I would start citing it but it is a theme that is harped on over and over from the beginning, impossible to miss if you start reading it.
"A simple warning from which nothing can be taken away and too which nothing need be added."
As for the lurid descriptions of Heaven and the cruel torments of Hell they are meant to be taken as literal truth, Muslims look forward to jeering at the damned when they are not lounging in luxurious decadence in the garden that waits.
By contrast Mormon's believe they will be allowed to minister to those in Hell (which is just not being in Heaven) and plan to do so... Who do you want for a neighbor?
If Mohammad couldn't keep his hands off his nieces (And God gave him special permission in the Qua'ran, against all custom to 'have at them')then how will those who revere him treat your daughters? How they treat there own is a pretty good clue.
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quote: By contrast Mormon's believe they will be allowed to minister to those in Hell (which is just not being in Heaven) and plan to do so... Who do you want for a neighbor?
Out of interest, do you believe that Mormons worship the same God you do?
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quote: You know General Sax, I think you'd do the Christian cause a lot more good by behaving like a Christian, then by behaving horribly and telling everyone you're a Christian
The only conclusion that I can draw from this is that 'behaving horribly' is disagreeing with you or anyone else, a rather shallow deffinition. I cannot see a single point where I have left the rules of civilized discorse behind.
Bob has not even showed up and claimed that I am out of control so I have to dismiss your opinion, I am sorry.
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quote: Out of interest, do you believe that Mormons worship the same God you do?
I think that what the Mormons do is better described as striving to be like (and eventually become) Chists and therefore God. I am not sure 'worship' is the correct word.
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quote:Originally Posted by kmbboots: Have you not heard of the Crusades?
Oh, such a grand generalization. The Crusades weren't all evil. Had the Crusades never happened, Europe might have been overrun by Muslims, who certainly weren't the victims during that war.
If I had to try and come up with a victim of religious fervor during the Crusades, the only group that really comes to mind are the Jews, and those that attacked the innocent Jews during the Crusades were heavily punished by the Pope.
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