posted
I'd like to use this thread to explore people's feelings and views about prayer if possible. If you don't believe in it, that's fine. Please don't belittle those who do.
On a personal level I'm exploring how it may have been used or mis-used by persons in my own life, but that is a very biased perspective and I know I should look on a broader level.
Here are some questions for starters:
1) Do you pray when you feel helpless?
If so, on what levels does it help you or change your outlook on life?
2) Do you ever use "I'll pray for you?" instead of actually expressing a genuine feeling. In my own experience, rather than saying "That sucks, I'm sorry there's nothing I can do for you at the moment" I'm given the shorthand "I'll pray for you" which actually distances the pray-er's emotions from the pray-ee's emotions, and transfers it to a third party rather than even acknowledging how bad it sucks.
Even a "that sucks, I'll pray for you" would be better, but most of the time there isn't actual true acknowledgement of the crappy situation.
Do those of you who *believe* in prayer ever see that prayer is used as a cop-out for personal responsibility either by yourself or others?(if you are athiest don't bother saying you don't believe it... we get that)
Thanks... I'm sure this thread will drift and I'm eager to see where it goes.
If so, on what levels does it help you or change your outlook on life?
Yes. It generally calms me, reminds me that I can only do my best and that some things are just beyond my control... that I must move forward in the faith that all will amount to something in the end.
quote:2) Do you ever use "I'll pray for you?" instead of actually expressing a genuine feeling. In my own experience, rather than saying "That sucks, I'm sorry there's nothing I can do for you at the moment" I'm given the shorthand "I'll pray for you" which actually distances the pray-er's emotions from the pray-ee's emotions, and transfers it to a third party rather than even acknowledging how bad it sucks.
Even a "that sucks, I'll pray for you" would be better, but most of the time there isn't actual true acknowledgement of the crappy situation.
No...I have a different problem. I will say that I am going to pray for someone and, if I don't stop and do it then and there, will often forget to do it altogether as my own day presses around me.
I have never gotten the sense that someone was skipping out of sympathy or empathy by offering prayer... though I can see how what you described could happen.
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posted
Actually, even as an atheist I find it calming and comforting. Sorta like knocking on wood when you say how long it's been since your last speeding ticket.
I attribute this to the fact I was raised christian and some things take a long time to dig out of the back of your brain.
posted
To me, "I'll pray for you" is what I say when I feel helpless-- when I want to help, but there is nothing I can do to help physically, and because I believe that prayers are answered, I see praying as something constructive to do.
I do pray when I feel helpless-- for myself or for others. That is how I find peace and comfort in otherwise unbearable situations.
I usually say, "I'm so sorry. I will pray for you." Or something to that effect because, let's face it, there's not much you can say that really expresses your feelings for a friend or acquaintance who just had a miscarriage or lost her father to a heart attack or her two sons in a car accident. There's just not. I say "I'm sorry" and feel inadequate, and add, "I'll pray for you" because I want her to know that she will be in my thoughts and heart and that I am helping whatever way I can (I usually also try to send a card or e-mail or, if she's close by, bring food, because those are the other time-honored traditions of "I can't really help you but I'm doing all I can" gestures. If she has kids, I'll offer to watch them, I'll come do her dishes if we're close friends, stuff like that. But if we're far apart, as so many of my friends are, most of what I can do for her is probably pray. So I do. I pour my heart out and hope she finds comfort as much from knowing that I care as anything else.)
However, prayer is not a substitute for personal responsibility. I believe in doing whatever I can BEFORE praying for help (although I pray for comfort or guidance all the time.)
I think there is value in people praying for me, and I am touched when they do. And I do take comfort from it.
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posted
Prayer, for me, is a complicated, ambiguous thing. It includes some very different kinds of activities.
There is what I think of as the "voodoo" kind of prayer. I, even as a not-atheist, tend to agree with Pixiest. It is a comforting remnant of superstition. I don't really think that we can control the weather or the outcome of sporting events etc, by praying about them. But it is complicated. Are there subtle, but significant changes in ourselves that we make by those kinds of prayers that do have a benefit? I think that is possible.
I think that praying for someone sort of falls into this category. I think it is a reminder that God is with them (whatever the circumstance) and that they are cared for rather than any kind of "magic".
But I am not quite arrogant enough to dismiss miracles just because I don't understand how they work.
There is prayer for discernment - trying to be open to God's will. I that is an important kind of prayer. This kind also ties into the meditation kind of praying which gets us into the habit of being open to God.
Then there is my favorite, thanks and praise. Those are pretty self-explanatory. It is right to give God thanks and praise. It also feels good and is, I think, healthy.
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quote:Then there is my favorite, thanks and praise. Those are pretty self-explanatory. It is right to give God thanks and praise. It also feels good and is, I think, healthy.
I love that kind of prayer, too. And so does Emma, who is thankful every day for Bridget, Abba, food, Grandma, Grandpa, her uncles, the kitties, Mommy, and all the characters on Sesame Street (listed by name) in that order... Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Thank you... I'm sure my original questions were slanted more than I meant them to be so please feel free to riff on anything that seems related.
I have a good friend, who always studied and got straight As, and had never failed a test in her life. She felt confident going into her orals for her PhD. She knew everyone was praying for her. And she flunked her orals.
She realized in the aftermath that she *had* been substituting "prayer" for personal responsibility and *hadn't* studied or prepared anywhere like she should have for her orals, confident that this time would be like ever other time. There were some other contributing circumstances, but the bottom line is that she didn't fight and exert herself to her limits to pass because she'd never had to before, when everyone was praying for her.
Admittedly she was conflating prayer with other aspects of her life. However until the exact moment she failed the orals, she didn't realize she was doing it... she'd never had cause to question it before, because the way she'd been raised it was such an underpinning to the rest of her life. She never, ever, ever had any intention of *abusing* the concept of prayer vs personal responsiblity. She's someone who is always very steady and responsible. (She was always the calming balance to my ebullience when we were kids).
I guess I was always a little more skeptical to begin with, so I never took things for granted quite as much as she did, and I never had that "shocker" moment of oh-crap, I expected God to come through in ways He never committed to.
I'm explaining this because I believe my friend's (former) view on life is similar to my own Mother's current view, and I'm trying to weed through the muck, to figure out some things about our relationship in general.
I don't think my mother ever had the "shocker" moment that my friend had. I also think that my mother may have insulated herself so deeply from reality that she'd never let a "shocker" like that get to her. Rather than conclude that it was a failing of personal responsibility, she'd probably conclude it was a failing of personal faith instead (which isn't quite the same thing as taking responsibility for one's actions).
Hearing more balanced views on prayer would help me considerably... but this is where I'm coming from at the moment.
I'm ok with prayer as a genuine expression and communication of faith. But I highly doubt God wanted it used as a crutch to excuse ourselves from our own failings.
quote:"I'll pray for you" is what I say when I feel helpless-- when I want to help, but there is nothing I can do to help physically, and because I believe that prayers are answered, I see praying as something constructive to do.
I will occasionally tell people I will pray for them, and this is exactly why. The last time I said it was to Matt the night before his oral exams. I couldn't do anything - I couldn't help him study, I couldn't help him to know if he was studying the right things, I couldn't feed him before he left because he lives 20 minutes away - I couldn't do anything. I get antsy if I can't take action, and when I can't do anything to help, I can still pray for them.
It's a very intimate kind of conversation where I'll say that to someone, though. I don't think it ever takes the place of expressing sympathy or trying to talk about their situation, because it is only AFTER such a conversation that I would feel comfortable talking about prayer.
I pray when I feel helpless, among many other times and reasons. I pray for wisdom and comfort most often when I am asking for things.
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quote: It's a very intimate kind of conversation where I'll say that to someone, though. I don't think it ever takes the place of expressing sympathy or trying to talk about their situation, because it is only AFTER such a conversation that I would feel comfortable talking about prayer
This is good stuff. In my own life I definitely feel like the "prayer" comment has been used in lieu of talking about the situation to begin with.
Or there's the praying "At" somebody. Which they don't have any intention of actually doing, but when you are on the "outside" it is clear you are being prayed "at" as much as being prayed "for".
posted
I also think that in spite of "God works in mysterious ways". When they are praying "for" me in my current "apostate" state. It would never occur to them that my spirituality may actually be deepening in many ways even though I'm living with my boyfriend and no longer attend church.
I've gone through bouts of agnosticism, but overall if God exists I *have* to be closer to him now than I was before. Because everything I read in the Bible (and most other spiritual literature) is that God can handle our questions and doubts. To squelch those questions and doubts in the name of "faith" and "prayer" seems exactly counter productive to spiritual growth... and that's the point that leads me to agnocitscim. If God really can't handle a variety of beliefs given the gamut of humanity does god exist at all?
And I don't *believe* that it is what the people I was raised around intended to happen, as far as squelching goes. It just kind of happened and they didn't realize it at all, and would be horrified if they figured out it could have happened. (Oh the other hand they don't really believe their way could "squelch" spiritual growth since it is "right" so there is a bit of a tautology there)
posted
Generally, when someone tells me they'll pray for me, it's in the context of a longer conversation when other forms of sympathy are also expressed. I do find it a bit awkward sometimes because I'm not sure that intercessory prayer does a whole lot for the person being prayed for. I just generally keep that thought to myself and take comfort that people care about me and are keeping me in their thoughts.
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posted
Shig, I would agree in general and in most cases do exactly what you ay.
It's just in this specific case in my own life, it really seems to be a pattern of behavior in my parents life and some of their close friends. Almost as if prayer is a mechanism to avoid the "prayed about" issue, rather than deal with it.
posted
Prayer is, for me anyway, a method for exploring questions and doubts rather than a way of squelching them.
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quote:I guess I was always a little more skeptical to begin with, so I never took things for granted quite as much as she did, and I never had that "shocker" moment of oh-crap, I expected God to come through in ways He never committed to.
I'm explaining this because I believe my friend's (former) view on life is similar to my own Mother's current view, and I'm trying to weed through the muck, to figure out some things about our relationship in general.
I feel that my prayers are more heartfelt and sincere after I've done all I can do to make things in life work. Of course I pray along the way to just talk about my plans but I try to not ask until I've put in the effort.
When I offer to pray for someone, it is as others have said, as an extension of I care about you and a feeling that if anyone can make things better, God can. (Whether He will or not is of course up to Him. )
Edit to add quote
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posted
AJ, that's sad that they are doing that, though I would hope it's unintentional on their part.
Another prayer frustration I have is that when I pray it feels like I'm just talking to myself. It's a very one-sided conversation, and I wonder why God will talk to just about everyone but me.
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posted
"I'll pray for you later because actual compassion, understanding, love and forgiveness, that's God's job, not mine."
To live Christ-like means to offer compassion, understanding, love and forgiveness--not to attack people you believe are sinners.
Banna, I think you are doing a he... of a better job at it than many of your more church going relatives.
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posted
I think it is genuinely unintentional. However, I believe in specific cases it's progressed so far to be actual self-delusion. Which is frustrating, because I want to be able to communicate to them, and "fix it" and make it so that they feel better. But of course I can't. I know I have to accept the fact that I can never get what I want from them... yet I keep hoping... that's the hard part.
posted
Please, please keep posting examples that you feel are of "healthy" prayer... because I need to hear more about what it looks like, in an enriching form...
posted
I used to be a very devout Catholic. And, if there was one thing I took away from what my parents taught me, it was that to those whom much is given, much is expected.
In the Catholic Mass, there is a section where the conregation offers up petitions, usually with a refrain something like "Lord, hear our prayer." It's a common practice to have as the last petition, something personal that you are asking God for. At a certain point in my childhood, I think I was around 8 or so, I put those together. I had a great life. I had been given so much. As such, the intercession I was asking for was much more deserved by someone else. But I didn't know how to pick out that person. But, see, God would, so I made it a practice to offer a petition for the person who needed it most.
But, then I got to thinking, God already knows that that person needs it most and if it is in his power to give it, I couldn't conceive of a way where it made sense for me asking him to give it would affect this in any way.
This led me to two things. First, to me, what I've now come to call Vedic prayer (i.e. asking/making God do things) is basically useless. The focus is on the wrong place. If prayer is useful, it has to be focused inward and the primary effect will be on your own relationship with the divine and yourself. Second, if I can't petition God to do more than he is, then it's my job to find and help the people who need it most.
Looking back on it, I set up my heresies a long time before they became explicit.
Many things followed from this (combined with a whole lot of other experiences). One of them was a movement away from a transcendental conception of the divine to an immanent one, that is away from the idea of the divine as a separate entity and towards thinking of it as a all-pervading force that is given expression through every aspect of the universe. A second was a rejection of the idea that salvation/redemption could come from anyone else's blood but my own.
On an intellectual level, it is interesting to see the differences between what seems to me to be the common transcendental and immanent approaches to prayer. People who study religion, in my experience Mircea Eliade figuers most prominently, have made a big deal about how sacredness implies a separation for the mundane/profane. I find this attitude to be pretty prevelant in the common western religious approach to prayer. In contrast, as my conception of prayer has evolved, I've come to view it as that which must be central to all activities in a properly lived life. Everything I'm doing has a strong aspect of prayer to it. That is not to say that I don't take special time away to meditate, but that time is just a different, more concentrated and focused aspect of the process.
But in looking at it, I don't think that is going to make much sense to anyone who doesn't already understand the concepts involved.
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quote:I know I have to accept the fact that I can never get what I want from them... yet I keep hoping... that's the hard part.
*hugs tight* I know the feeling. I think it's very sweet and shows what a warm heart you have that you do keep hoping and reaching out despite being hurt.
I do like the prayers where we pray for people, but they don't know about it. It's like...it's a good time to articulate my thoughts about other people and focus on what they need. Even if it doesn't elicit divine help (I think it does) but even if it doesn't, I make myself aware of the people around me and what they might be needing. I think that's a good thing in this world.
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quote: At a certain point in my childhood, I think I was around 8 or so, I put those together. I had a great life. I had been given so much. As such, the intercession I was asking for was much more deserved by someone else. But I didn't know how to pick out that person. But, see, God would, so I made it a practice to offer a petition for the person who needed it most.
While not Catholic I did this *exact* same thing, and I know I've heard my little brothers pray aloud nearly identically to that when they were about that age too.
In your case, did you then feel guilty because you *were* so blessed but there wasn't really much you could do to help everyone else?
AJ
The vedic prayer thing is interesting. I'm not sure if I've taken it quite as far as you have philisophically but a lot of what you are saying reasonates.
posted
No, I wouldn't describe it as guilty. More like I had a goal I wasn't living up to. For me it is generally more of a goad to more action than a way of felling bad about myself.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Then there is my favorite, thanks and praise. Those are pretty self-explanatory. It is right to give God thanks and praise. It also feels good and is, I think, healthy.
Couldn't agree more.
I think the vast majority of my prayer falls into two categories: expression of appreciation and expression of disappointment (a combination of need, resentment, and anger). It seems to me that all Christians can probably agree that we were created in order to have a loving relationship with our creator. As I have learned about love, I find that those two things are essential to building a loving relationship.
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: God can handle our questions and doubts. To squelch those questions and doubts in the name of "faith" and "prayer" seems exactly counter productive to spiritual growth...
Worth repeating. Several times.
I don't quite agree that this necessaitates agnosticism, but the quoted part couldn't be more spot on.
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Are you sure you're not still a devout Catholic? None of what you said struck me as at all heretical. As a matter of fact, I thought it was pretty right on. Of course, my vouching for the orthodoxy of something is of questionable value...
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posted
boots, Extremely sure. I can go down the Nicean creed with nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope. For example, I don't believe that Jesus was divine in a different way than I am, nor that his death could affect my redemption (which isn't really what I mean, anyway, more like measuring up) in any case except in an influencing example sort of way.
For that matter, I believe that there is an aspect of the divine that I experience that makes Catholic Mass uncomfortable for me.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: But in looking at it, I don't think that is going to make much sense to anyone who doesn't already understand the concepts involved.
It makes sense to me, though I think of something entirely different when I think of an Immanent or Transcendental God. I'm not sure you are really heretical, either... except in the "nobody's blood but my own" comment. But surely if *love* is going to be the difference maker, there has to be someone else involved, no? even if salvation lies in learning to love ourselves, someone else has to love us first to teach us that we are loveable...
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posted
Trust me. I'm a super-heretic. There's all kinds of official names for the places where I think the Catholic church took the wrong path.
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posted
Squicky, sorry, I wasn't really asking seriously - I don't want you to think that I think you should be, etc. I think you do a great job of managing your own spiritual issues.
I have yet, though, to read anything you've written about religion that has struck me as particularly wrong. In other words, while I get that Catholicism is not good for you, I think that more people like you would be good for Catholicism.
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posted
<Reads thread with interest, unsure that he has anything to add within the requested parameters>
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posted
I've been more frank with God in my prayers then I think I have ever been to any entity in my entire life. I've vented on Him, I've thanked him from the bottom of my heart, I've pleaded to him tearfully. I've never felt that the act of prayer was time wasted, I wish I spent considerably more time in the act TBH.
quote: But, then I got to thinking, God already knows that that person needs it most and if it is in his power to give it, I couldn't conceive of a way where it made sense for me asking him to give it would affect this in any way.
Have you considered Mr. S that when Christians say, "Thy will be done." They are asking for God to attune them to what His will is, as His will is in the best interests of everyone?
Do you think it is a possibility that sometimes God would like us to think for ourselves and so in certain instances though one thing would be best for us, he gives us what we ask for so that we can learn to be careful of what we wish for ourselves.
Is it a possibility that God is willing to give us all that we ask for but his hands do not move until we make the request? Would it be smart if God automatically gave us what we REALLY wanted without allowing us to decide for ourselves? If all MY wants were fulfilled without any thought on my part I would grow content, indolent, and ungrateful. How much better is it to encounter adversity, to do all you can do overcome it and to find that God picks up the slack and while doing so, helps you understand what you missed.
Prayer for me is not just asking for what I need, but asking God to help me be more like him as I am sure God would be VERY good at obtaining the things that all human beings rightly seek.
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I see value in the intent of some types of prayer, even though I don't believe in a defined "God". I do believe that "praying" for someone can draw you closer to them and them to you, though this particular phenomenon I am more comfortable labeling "sending good vibes". I still find myself forming petitions to the universe for things that I want to happen, and while I don't believe in wishcraft anymore than in "God", I do think it helps me to understand my own desires and motives.
Is this line of thought helpful at all? I don't want to derail the thread and I am interested in what everyone else is saying so far.
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posted
Once I read somewhere that there is only one useful prayer and that is to pray for God to make you able to receive and feel and contain his love. I also asked a Hatracker once in email about praying and she told me that Hindus use a prayer where they only repeat the name of God until they feel Gods presence. To me those two work. All other prayers don't help me feel better, only those do. And I do try to pray for others, but it always feels wrong. As if God answers me: "Useless to ask, I already take good care of them". Which is strange, because I do seem to feel it when my best friend is praying for me. I must be doing something wrong...
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quote: Have you considered Mr. S that when Christians say, "Thy will be done." They are asking for God to attune them to what His will is, as His will is in the best interests of everyone?
I understand this in theory. However, unfortunately, I have seen this played out in reality as the supplicant assumming that since God's will is obvious in the case of person X and it is obvious that person X is "transgressing" then there is no way person X could be in harmony with God, therefore what the supplicant is asking God for is what they think God's will should be in this situation... whether or not it actually is. And they assume since what happens is CLEARLY Outside God's Will, then person X needs praying for even more because of the error of their ways.
posted
AJ, how creepy and maddening that must be for you. I am tempted to suggest that you pray for them "back", loudly and in their presence. But that would not be productive, or kind, or...and they likely wouldn't get it anyway.
So I'll just offer my sympathy. Sorry.
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posted
*grin* I like what you said about using prayer to help work through things.
I've known some people who were into "conversational prayer" speaking aloud as if God was actually in the room no matter who was around. In some cases I found it immensely rewarding, in other cases I found it extremely disconcerting, as if the person was using "prayer" as an excuse to vent their own thoughts outloud but sort of passive agressively.
They definitely didn't make the sacred/profane distinction that squicky drew. It wasn't a line relevant to their lives.
posted
BB, I'm having trouble seeing how a respectful reading of what I wrote could lead to any of the things you said.
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posted
I do not believe in a personal God. However, I have noticed that those who do not pray seem to be profoundly lonely.
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posted
I'm agnostic, but every once in a while I suprise myself by starting to pray. Every time I do, it's completely unintentional. It usually happens when I'm experiencing extreme physical pain or an extreme emotion. I think I do it not just because old habits die hard, but also because I remember the comfort that it used to bring.
Conversational prayer reminds me somewhat of keeping a journal. When I write things down about my life and my feelings in a journal it feels comforting. I feel like I'm working things out for myself and that there is meaning in the writing. I think prayer is probably more rewarding because you never rehear what you said. The feeling of depth remains no matter how what you said would sound to you later. I like the idea of prayer, but without a belief in a God to pray to, I don't do it myself.
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posted
I pray at least five times a day. My greatest moments of peace are those times. I have to make a consious effort, however, to make sure each prayer is sincere, that I actually listen to my words and thoughts, and don't make it a routine or take it for granted.
1) I pray when I'm helpless, when I'm joyful, when I'm sad, when I'm angry. My emotions, my thoughts, my life is from God, and it is to God that I give them.
2) When there is nothing more you can do to help someone, yes. I agree with you that saying it to absolve yourself of responsibility is an empty gesture. However, at a certain point, all you can do is pray, and put it into God's hands after doing your best.
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posted
"I'm so ronrey.... ronrey and sadry arone..." (is that two lines? do I have to stop?)
Squicky: I dunno.. orlox's statement was mildly offensive. I took it as anecdotal evidence... Maybe you're just numb to KoM, but I found him much ruder.
posted
Oh, don't get me wrong, KoM is almost always much ruder. I'm somewhat amazed that he hasn't been banned like 20 times over by now. I have no expectation of ever influencing his behavior.
However, the underlying point of the statement is valid. orlox has been exposed to many people on this site who don't pray and he is saying that they seem profoundly lonely. You'd expect someone in that group to make comments in the negative to that.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: BB, I'm having trouble seeing how a respectful reading of what I wrote could lead to any of the things you said.
Perhaps flawed was a better adjective then disrespectful. For some reason I swear the paragraph after
quote:But, then I got to thinking, God already knows that that person needs it most and if it is in his power to give it, I couldn't conceive of a way where it made sense for me asking him to give it would affect this in any way.
Was not there when I first read the post, color me confused my apologies for being blind.
But I should also point out that I firmly believe the phrase, "God will grant unto thee according to they desires whether they be good or evil."
But obviously if God has an agenda and your request interferes with it, you probably won't get what you want.
Again my apologies for apparently only commenting on a part of your post rather then the whole.
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