posted
I guess not, but I thought his posts were framed as counterpoints to yours. (their validity aside)
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I think you guys are jumping a little too hard on General Sax. Some of his posts were very stupid things to say, but in some of them it seemed he was actually trying to make a point and not just say stupid things.
"By the way, I WILL watch Saddam being executed, not because I'm sick, or because I'm evil, but simply because to me it's justice"
What? How is it justice if you watch it? He's dead whether you watch the video or not. You watching him choke to death is not going to help make it more just in any way, IMO.
Posts: 2054 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Perhaps it just makes him feel better. It's not that he enjoys watching a person hang and suffer and whatnot. He enjoys the fact that it's HIM.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Not even that. To me, I'd rather skip through the whole thing, and just see him die. To me, it'd be closure. And that's all I'd want.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Personally, I have issues with the death penalty and when I heard he was dead, something deep inside of me felt very disturbed. Not because I liked the guy or think he was on to something with the whole genocide etc. thing, but just because the glee that I feel coming from others that he is dead. I don't mind if others are in favour of the death penalty; I can peacefully disagree with them, even if they wish to see footage of his execution. I do have issues with dancing on someone's grave.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Hanging automatically makes me think of lynchings, of those pictures I saw of black men being hung. There's no way I'm looking at that, it makes me more than sick. That's why I find wanting to see such a thing so disgusting.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:My opinion is that it is sad when ANY child dies - but especially sad when he dies because other children are so foolish to think that they understand justice well enough to sacrifice lives in its name. Saddam killed many children for precisely that reason. Now we kill Saddam for the same reason. Somewhere out there some terrorist is now plotting to kill us for that same reason too. We all think we know what justice demands, but all it ends up amounting to is a bunch of children getting killed.
Thank you Tresopax for giving voice to that sentiment. Several years ago there was a KKK rally where the bystanders started a mini-riot. Some of them started attacking the clansmen. A black lady put herself in between an attacker and clansman, taking the hits off of him and on to herself. When later asked why she did this, she said all she could think about was that that man was somebody's baby.
When it comes to a need for justice or closure, I don't think that anything is as satisfying as compassion. I think that being able to see somebody as fully human, no matter their many flaws, is the best way to heal from their wrong doings.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Celebrations going on in Kurdish north, Shiite south, and in Chaldean communities all over the US, most especially in Dearborn probably.
The people who actually remember Saddam, minus the Baathists, seem pretty happy about this, jubilant even.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I don't think Saddam even tried to use justice as a defense for many of his actions that were brought up, so I think it funny its asserted he was killed because he was "foolish to think that [he understood] justice well enough to sacrifice lives in its name". He kept arguing it was for political necessity and the good of the state. It would be good if in attempts to draw parallels there was a better basis in reality.
I happen to be against the death penalty, and even for mildly similar reasons, but lets try to argue soundly rather than prettily.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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1) One less distraction for the troops in Iraq. 2) Now we can say "Mission Accomplished" for the original mission was to remove Saddam so he could never come back. 3) The timing is interesting, with President Bush's Iraq Policy speech coming up shortly. I am betting that President Bush will reference the death of Saddam at least 3 times. 4) It is a shame that such an evil sociopath will continue to cause death and destruction, for there is a great expectation that protest killings, explosions, and chaos will follow. Not because anyone wants to keep following Saddam, but because its as good an excuse as any for those who's goal is death, destruction, and chaos.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
The insurgents tend to be fair weather fighters, they do not like to sneak out in the cold and rain to plant bombs, so this is a good time to hang him, by the time they feel frisky enough to fight they will have lost their indignation. The Iraqi's know their own people pretty well, well enough to use their laziness at least.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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If you're counting people who don't believe you've ever served, you can count me, too.
I have a number of friends in relatives in the armed forces and I can't think of a single one of them who wouldn't be embarassed to be associated with you.
quote:Originally posted by Tara: It's ridiculous to have death as a penalty because we ALL die eventually. Saddamm should have sat through the rest of his trials. That would be worse than death for any real human being.
The fact that we all die has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the death penalty is effective or morally defensible. I'm flabbergasted that that 'point' would even be raised.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It looks like they are not showing the hanging anywhere, just the body and the walk up. The rig looks surprisingly makeshift, you would think they would have something better then a rope tied to a hand rail, I guess it did the job but I had forgotten just how backward things tend to be in Iraq. Though the point of hanging in a Muslim State is that it is an ordinary thieves death so the lack of pomp might be calculated.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Knowing me as well as you do I can only pray that I can change to be more pleasing in your eyes.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
For the record, I do not think it is childish to rejoice so blatantly at a death. I think it is barbaric.
While children are often barbaric, barbarians are not necessarily childish or child-like. It is possible to make an adult decision to rejoice in the bloodier, gorier parts of the human experience.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
"Celebrations going on in Kurdish north, Shiite south, and in Chaldean communities all over the US, most especially in Dearborn probably. "
That's is truely offensive to me, and not just becouse I am religiously, moraly and politicaly oposed to the death penalty. Even were I surporter, I would have to agree with katharina that rejoicing is barbaric.
Had Saddam still been in power and killing people, I might have felt differently.
Out of curiosity, has the Vatican issued a statement? How about the E.U.? I know both were oposed to this....
Edited to add: Great post, Tresopax
Posts: 211 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote: A capital punishment is always tragic news, a reason for sadness, even if it deals with a person who was guilty of grave crimes.... The killing of the guilty party is not the way to reconstruct justice and reconcile society. On the contrary, there is a risk that it will feed a spirit of vendetta and sow new violence....In these dark times for the Iraqi people, one can only hope that all responsible parties truly make every effort so that glimmers of reconciliation and peace can be found in such a dramatic situation.
I can't find any E.U. comments, but most member-states were highly critical.
From other members of the coalition in Iraq:
quote: I welcome the fact that Saddam Hussein has been tried by an Iraqi court for at least some of the appalling crimes he committed against the Iraqi people. He has now been held to account [...] The British government does not support the use of the death penalty, in Iraq or anywhere else [...] We have made our position very clear to the Iraqi authorities, but we respect their decision as that of a sovereign nation."
U.K.
No other current coalition member expressed an opinion on the excecution, although Jonathan Howard expressed his admiration for the trial process, without aparently extending to the exectution. (Australia does not practice capital punishment.)
Posts: 211 | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
While I'm not happy that Saddam died, I hope some good can come from it. Now that there is absolutely no chance of his ever harming the Iraqi people again, I hope they'll feel safe joining the police and hunting down the insurgents. I hope they have the strength to build a stronger nation now.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I can't figure out whether it'd be a breech of a specific rule here, but he may be able to tell you. But really, the question is more whether or not you SHOULD post it. I personally would not and would rather that you didn't.
But...
if you really want to post it, you should definitely ask permission first. You'll get a faster response if you e-mail Papa Janitor.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I consider Saddam's execution like putting down a dog that has been trained by a malicious owner and has been attacking children.
I'm not happy about it. I feel sorry for the dog, and I want to address the conditions that allowed it to happen. And I'm not going to cheer the death. But the dog cannot be allowed to remain near people.
Of course, in this case the owner and the dog are the same being. I'm still not going to woo-hoo.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Is there anyone out there who can speak from personal experience how it feels to know that an abuser cannot ever hurt you ever again? I think they can speak to the feelings Iraqi's must have at this point.
As I watch the video I am impressed by the fact that Saddam wanted his face uncovered while the execution party was afraid to have their faces video taped. Of course fear is for the living not the dead. Still, it shows we have a long way to go before Iraq government has the credibility it needs to replace the fear the previous administration held sway with.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Personally, I have issues with the death penalty and when I heard he was dead, something deep inside of me felt very disturbed. Not because I liked the guy or think he was on to something with the whole genocide etc. thing, but just because the glee that I feel coming from others that he is dead. I don't mind if others are in favour of the death penalty; I can peacefully disagree with them, even if they wish to see footage of his execution. I do have issues with dancing on someone's grave
That's almost exactly my thoughts on the issue.
Especially the bolded part (my bolding).
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Is there anyone out there who can speak from personal experience how it feels to know that an abuser cannot ever hurt you ever again?
Yes, and it has much more to do with who I am than their deaths since all of them, are, in fact, still alive (as far as I know).
There is more than one way to effect a permanent change.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:I think they can speak to the feelings Iraqi's must have at this point.
You know, there are still a few Iraqis alive. It seems like you could eliminate the need for speculation by asking some.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:"I can understand why some of my compatriots may be cheering. I have friends whose particular people I can think of who have lost 10, 15, 20 members of their family, more," Istrabadi said.
"But for me, it's a moment really of remembrance of the victims of Saddam Hussein."
And here's what the CNN article says about the Iraqi's reaction to the exectuion:
quote: A witness to Saddam Hussein's execution in Baghdad said that celebrations broke out after the former dictator died, and that there was "dancing around the body."
"Saddam's body is in front of me," said an official in the prime minister's office when CNN telephoned. "It's over."
In the background, Shiite chanting could be heard. When asked about the chanting, the official said, "These are employees of the prime minister's office and government chanting in celebration."
Video showed Iraqis celebrating in the streets of Najaf, a Shiite holy city.
posted
Posting that video here would be infinitely more offensive than linking to porn.
I do not think OSC wants that in what he has described as his living room.
Edited to add: If he does, OSC is not the man I thought he was and his living room is not a place I want to be.
Edited again to add: Bare in mind that OSC does not surport capital punishment. He says that this is for practical, rather than ethical, reasons, but still.
Posts: 211 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Euripides: I'm undecided on the death penalty. While I consider any form of violence outside of self-defence to be immortal, I also find it grossly immoral (immoral, not just economically inefficient) to take taxes from law-abiding citizens and use it to clothe, feed and guard prisoners.
If it makes you feel any better about your taxes, there any many studies, available with a simple Google search (ex http://uspolitics.about.com/od/deathpenalty/i/death_penalty_2.htm) that show that applying the death penalty, at least in the Western world is more expensive than life in prison.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Saddam's execution was definitily not a Western-sytle execution. I highly doubt that it was more expensive than life in prison.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Well, PB's probably right... given the number of people who have no problem with porn and who do have problems with public viewing of death, there's probably "many" people who would agree with him.
But JT is right, too... they can speak for themselves.
As mph has pointed out elsewhere, though, those in favor of his execution may have something of an obligation to watch it, as those who eat fish have something of an obligation to catch and clean one-- so that you can be aware of the reach of your actions.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I don't like the death penalty. But if there were a cut-and-dried case for someone deserving execution, Saddam, a mass-murderer, torturer, and tyrant, would probably fit the bill.
Still, if we had killed the murderer at the height of his power, thus preventing further atrocities, that might be something to crow about. The unkempt, Doritos-eating prisoner was just... Pathetic. Pitiful, even.
posted
I was listening on NPR yesterday and a man was talking about the travesty of killing him NOW rather than after his trials are finished. He has been put to death for one atrocity committed in 1980. What about all the other atrocities? What about the other families' stories? By killing him now, it's been an injustice to everyone else who had the right to put Sadaam on trial. The importance of keeping the trial going is that it tells his WHOLE story, not to mention the possibility of implicating others as we do more research into Sadaam's life.
So regardless of my view's about the death penalty(against), killing him this early was wrong.
That said, from reading about people literally dancing and celebrating in the streets over this, I'm feeling a total cultural disconnect from anyone who would do such a thing. I can't imagine celebrating death.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Since the execution was kind of a surprise event I think the car bombing is more likely linked to the holy day opportunity like so many other attacks. There is not proof of a causal relationship as yet.
Posts: 475 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
General Sax, You are speaking as though you were personally hurt by Saddam. You then go on to express that you don't understand why those that were hurt by Saddam and were there at the execution wouldn't want to be seen by anyone else.
There are two explanations for this: You are taking things too lightly and have not been abused by anyone in similar circumstances; or You have been oppressed / abused but do not understand the differences in your case and the cases of any others.
If either of these are not the case, you are doing yourself and us a disservice in the way you are expressing yourself in this thread. Which is why some people have asked you to stop posting.
Plainly put, you're either an ass, or a dumb ass. Either express yourself in a manner that can have some sort of empathy or stop expressing.
Those that yell fire in a theater can be prosecuted for misrepresenting themselves and the situation to others around themselves. Tread lightly.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Is there any sense here that Saddam was given a fair trial that would, for example, meet a US or Western standard for what it means to have a fair trial.
See...if we agonize in the West about the death penalty, and most Western nations have now actually abandoned it, and yet we hold up our trials as a model of fairness...well, it is sort of strange to see much ready acceptance of Saddam's sentence after the kind of trial he had.
In essence, those in the West who are okay with his death must somehow be choosing a different standard of justice than we're used to, deciding that they pretty much know he's guilty of enough atrocities that his death is warranted even without (a fair) trial, or somehow not really all that concerned about the rule of law or due process as long as the person is bad enough, or the country far enough away.
I'm sure there must be other justifications for those in the West who delight in Saddam's death, but I'm not really sure what they might be...from a Western civilization perspective, anyway.
Unless, of course, those of you who feel this way think he actually received a fair trial...
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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