posted
I prefer to say, "I am of the Asian persuasion" rather then saying "I have yellow fever."
Asian Persuasion just sounds more clever IMO.
Also, though I do think Asians are hot (I did grow up around them) I ended up marrying a girl who is 3/4ths German 1/4th American in ethnicity from Washington. Really did not see that coming growing up, I used to plague my mom with questions like, "If I married a Chinese girl would you be OK with it."
My mom usually candidly responded with, "If you had Mrs. Wong as a mother in law, would you be OK with it?" That usually shut me up.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I kind of feel like I'm picking on Orincoro, but I have Issues with people who believe that women being sexy somehow denigrates them.
In all seriousness, I get where you are coming from, Orincoro. I don't care if you think the music is crap. I mean, it doesn't bother me. As a non-musician, I wouldn't know 'real' music if it hit upside the head.
That said, let me throw a couple thoughts out.
I think that there are probably a ton of Asian violinists out there who dress modestly and are talented. You have them to enjoy. Enjoy them.
I don't agree with your belief that enjoying a hot Asian girl playing a violin somehow means that, what?, people will assume all Asian girls get by on their looks? That they all can't really play violin? (I'm kind of confused on this point.) I think it's perfectly possible to enjoy one or the other, or even one and the other for what they have to offer.
So, my question to you is, why do you think men, or society, or whatever can't appreciate people, women, on the level that they choose to share themselves? If some women don't want to expose more skin, that's great. I can appreciate them for what they are. If they do, that's great to. I like pretty girls.
I strenuously oppose your belief that society is some kind of zero-sum game, a closed system where when one person does one thing, because they are part of a group, it somehow has some kind of deleterious butterfly effect on the whole gestalt. While it's clear that there people influence each other to some degree, people ARE capable of intellectually understanding that because a bird is black, not all birds are blackbirds. Further, emotionally, not all people would want to make that leap.
I absolutely appreciate what you are saying about substance versus eye candy. I think people should look for soul nurturing, awesome art.
But sometimes you just want candy, and that's o.k., too, I think.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
No kidding. I'm just trying to decide whether it should have an alarmed-looking schoolgirl on the front or not.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: So, Orincoro, is Nighthawk part of the huge Asian fetish problem?
I don't think it's huge. I think other people think it's huge, and that makes me kind of sensitive, because I've been subjected to that kind of stereotype against white men. Nighthawk, if I recall, did even go and live in Asia for a while, but I couldn't assign motives to that. It is still pretty clear to me that people have got to be responding to more than the awful music she is playing- evidence all the sexy videos and stage presence that she cultivates to make up for the sickly brand of music she plays.
So the answer is I don't think it's a problem- I just think we (as a society) don't need another reason for Asians to mistrust people of other ethnicities. That being said, of course I think that Asian performers should be allowed to be as sexy as they want to be- it's just the sinister motivation I assign in my imagination to the record label that promotes her.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
I don't agree with your belief that enjoying a hot Asian girl playing a violin somehow means that, what?, people will assume all Asian girls get by on their looks? That they all can't really play violin? (I'm kind of confused on this point.) I think it's perfectly possible to enjoy one or the other, or even one and the other for what they have to offer.
So, my question to you is, why do you think men, or society, or whatever can't appreciate people, women, on the level that they choose to share themselves? If some women don't want to expose more skin, that's great. I can appreciate them for what they are. If they do, that's great to. I like pretty girls.
I strenuously oppose your belief that society is some kind of zero-sum game, a closed system where when one person does one thing, because they are part of a group, it somehow has some kind of deleterious butterfly effect on the whole gestalt. While it's clear that there people influence each other to some degree, people ARE capable of intellectually understanding that because a bird is black, not all birds are blackbirds. Further, emotionally, not all people would want to make that leap.
My point about her being very attractive is only a negative for me because she plays what I think is awful music. This draws all my attention to the fact that she is getting by on her looks and marketing, and that sucks. Despite how we would love society to be, and despite the fact that most people are capable of telling blackbirds from birds that are black, all the classes I've ever taken in psychology (all of 2) have told me that the intellectual understanding of these issues is not usually the part that is the problem.
The sad fact is that we can understand intellectually that, for instance, a black man reaching into his pocket is likely to produce a wallet. However, field tests demonstrate that police officers, white and black, are more likely to shoot a black person who is reaching for his wallet, than to shoot a white person who is doing exactly the same thing. This tells me that our society- and not one individual, and not even a group of individuals, can understand and really BELIEVE one thing, and still react to the world as if they didn't know that thing. We can understand that Asian women are just as likely to be fully capable as musicians and as intelligent as anyone, but media garbage like this assaults our senses, effects our experience of the world, and makes part of our consciousness recognize a pattern that is wrong.
Like all those "boys in the hood" movies I remember from my childhood, that really thought they were teaching valuable lessons about the perils of life in gangs, we are being taught the wrong lessons by our own senses. You see a sexed up Asian girl on stage grinding on a violin- you may recognize the music as being uninspired and pointless, and you being in some way, or at least I think many will, to assign some values to those images. You see similar images later, and your experiences tell you things about them- that's the way our minds work; that's why we have to subject ourselves to a better quality of experiences- it makes us better people. Valueless experiences are not only free of positive value- they carry negative values too.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Orincoro, several people on this thread have said that they enjoyed her music without ever knowing what she looked like or her that she's Asian.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mph- I hope it's obvious that I'm not really addressing that point in my last post. What I said in that post is for people who have seen the video, and it's about how the video is portraying a negative image. How could you not have gotten that?
Edit: and further the person who I am responding to HAS seen the video.
To answer your point specifically. I knew that, yes. I have been reading the same thread you have. Every time I see a post like this from you, I care less about what you think and about the thread in general. I have a feeling that's what you're going for- but I don't know. Are you trying to just get in the last word or bore me out of caring at all? Because I'v done this 'go back and repeat yourself over and over and restate and then see that none of it has had even the slightest impact' thing with you before, and it's boring. You never seem to reward my efforts by even demonstrating that you've understood me. Maybe I should be more clear, or not post at all. I'll try, but please help me.
quote:Mph- I hope it's obvious that I'm not really addressing that point in my last post.
Yes. It's very obvious you haven't addressed that point AT ALL.
quote: I have a feeling that's what you're going for-
You should stop trusting those feelings you get about what others are trying to do. From experience, such feelings are remarkably and consistently wrong.
quote:Because I'v done this 'go back and repeat yourself over and over and restate and then see that none of it has had even the slightest impact' thing with you before, and it's boring.
See "Yes. It's very obvious you haven't addressed that point AT ALL." You are constantly complaining about things that you not only do, but that are central to the way you post.
It's very clear to us that you haven't heard much of what we've said. You posted two rants in response to a post I didn't make - it was some post you conjured up out of your "inferences."
Finally, your premises on the effects of a sexy Asian woman making bad music all rely on other people thinking her music is bad.
Many don't. Your premise is wrong.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote: You see a sexed up Asian girl on stage grinding on a violin- you may recognize the music as being uninspired and pointless, and you being in some way, or at least I think many will, to assign some values to those images. You see similar images later, and your experiences tell you things about them- that's the way our minds work; that's why we have to subject ourselves to a better quality of experiences- it makes us better people. Valueless experiences are not only free of positive value- they carry negative values too.
Asian women are far down my list of the kind of women that I associate with a stereotype of being any kind of sexy libertines. Perhaps Mae is doing all of you guys (Asian girls) a favor by helping people see that you're not all bookish school marms out of touch with your feelings. If anything, that's the stereotype I associate with Asian women.
What things mean to people is going to differ from person to person. You see Mae as bringing Asian women down because she is being sexual, other people may see her as bringing them 'up'. Other people may not really notice her Asian-ness at all.
Perhaps Mae is just doing it because it makes her happy. Aren't her feelings important in all of this? Must she do things, consider things, because she is a symbol of Asian women? Or should she do things because of what she wants and not consider the stereotypes?
The interesting thing about your argument is that it is, itself, a form of racism. It seems like because you think Mae isn't seen as an individual, you don't see Mae as an individual. You see her as an extension, a representative, of a group, and want her to tailor her behavior for the betterment of her group. Isn't it kind of sad that one of the tenets of your argument is that she shouldn't be doing what she's doing because she's an Asian woman and giving Asian women a bad name?
I admit that I can't say that you're wrong. I can't really say for sure what stereotypes exist for many people. I can't really say that it isn't better for Asian women that demure, well playing violinists are what is seen by society.
What I do firmly believe, though, is that if I were in Mae's place, I would want people to appreciate me for me, and not a representative of my 'race' or my sex.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
I have been thinking about this, and I understand what Orincoro is saying. She wants people to understand that not all Asian women are untalented and get by on their looks. That's great. That's fine and admirable.
I think I just disagree with some of her supporting assumptions and the way she's framing her argument. If she just said, eh, she's really not my cup of tea, etc. Have you heard of X? I like her a lot better, I think most people wouldn't have a problem with that. I think what's rubbing me the wrong way is that a lot of her argument seems to rest on assumptions about what people are thinking and what people should see.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
After I thought about it for awhile, I don't have any stereotypes, positive or negative, about Asian women. They're a distinct minority in my neighborhood, a nonexistent minority in my workplace, and so I don't really have any reference to draw any positive or negative stereotypes.
I will admit that an attractive Asian woman is more interesting* to me than an attractive white woman, or Hispanic woman, but I think that's really just because of the rarity (to me) involved.
*interesting as someone to glance-and-smile at in the library or bookstore or package-delivery-center, for instance.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have stereotypes, but I've met lots and seen lots that don't fit. I think most of those stereotypes come from the fact that most of the Asian/Oriental women I've seen in Florida are first generation immigrants.
quote: I will admit that an attractive Asian woman is more interesting* to me than an attractive white woman, or Hispanic woman, but I think that's really just because of the rarity (to me) involved.
For me, it's the unavailability, I think, that adds to the attractiveness. Like Indian girls, I perceive a lot of Asian girls to be somewhat, erm, racist? clannish? and only really want to be with guys of their own ethnicity. So, I perceive them as something that I can never have.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:What I said in that post is for people who have seen the video, and it's about how the video is portraying a negative image. How could you not have gotten that?
The things you say don't appear to be only talking about people who have seen the videos.
In the post I was responding to, you said:
quote: she plays what I think is awful music. This draws all my attention to the fact that she is getting by on her looks and marketing
Multiple people here have said that they enjoyed her music without knowing anything about her looks. It seems pretty obvious to me that she's getting by, at least in part, because people enjoy her music, uninfluenced by her looks or marketing.
You don't seem to believe that other people can actually enjoy this "awful" music, so you assume that it's something else.
Lots of people enjoy "awful" music. I'm one of them.
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Asian women are far down my list of the kind of women that I associate with a stereotype of being any kind of sexy libertines. Perhaps Mae is doing all of you guys (Asian girls) a favor by helping people see that you're not all bookish school marms out of touch with your feelings. If anything, that's the stereotype I associate with Asian women.
Despite the fact that I disagree with Orincoro on most of what he said, I should probably interject. While the stereotype may not have impressed itself on you, it does exist and is pretty well documented. Example: Stereotypes of Asian Women @ Wikipedia
I just don't think its a factor in this case. Nevertheless, thats the kind of "favour" that would probably be most unwanted.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: Asian women have been portrayed as aggressive sexual beings. Western film and literature has promoted stereotypes of Asian women, such as depicting Asian women as cunning "Dragon Ladies" [52][53][54], as servile "Lotus Blossom Babies", "China dolls", "Geisha girls", war brides, or prostitutes [55]. UC Berkeley Professor of Asian American Studies Elaine Kim has argued that the stereotype of Asian women as submissive sex objects has impeded women's economic mobility and has fostered increased demand in mail-order brides and ethnic pornography [56].
Seems kind of schizophrenic to me.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nobody ever accused stereotypes of being rational and well-thought out judgements.
Indeed, in the case of these stereotypes, they probably have more to do with the insecurities of the Western world than anything to do with Asian women.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
God, how I hate the whole conflict perspective.
quote: Nobody ever accused stereotypes of being rational and well-thought out judgements.
Indeed, in the case of these stereotypes, they probably have more to do with the insecurities of the Western world than anything to do with Asian women.
It's not been established what, exactly, the stereotype actually is. Just because certain tropes exist in porn (that exist in a lot of porn, by the way), doesn't mean that this translates to the actual stereotype for a lot of Asian women. For instance, a lot of men don't watch porn.
For all that exists in porn, you have people like Mae who, many would argue, represents a very healthy representation of women, Asian women, and their sexuality.
Conflict perspective frames everything in parameters in power, conflict, and dominance is a very limited point of view which on its face assumes that there *must* a priori be such a relationship, when quite often that has not been proved. I think that this is one of those cases, and I, myself, am a good example of why the link you gave is wrong and not comprehensive of the way all men view things.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
A) Not sure why you're focusing on porn. If you read the link, or indeed what you quoted "Western film and literature", porn is just one of the sources that the link talks about.
B) I'm not sure what you mean by "the actual stereotype for a lot of Asian women". Stereotypes are what certain people think about a group, in this case what certain Western people think about Asian women.
C) Don't know what you mean by conflict perspective. But your assertion that the link is wrong because you do not believe the stereotype is rather odd. Stereotypes merely have to be held by some people, in some cases many people. Not all members of a group have to believe the stereotype in order for it to exist. In this case, its well documented that a fair number of people hold these beliefs. Whether you believe in it or not has no bearing on their beliefs.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: A) Not sure why you're focusing on porn. If you read the link, or indeed what you quoted "Western film and literature", porn is just one of the sources that the link talks about.
My mistake.
My mistake. Nevertheless, my point stands that what is in media doesn't necessarily reflect reality for a lot of people. For what it's worth, I don't think the examples given in your link represent the totality of the way Asian women are shown in media, and they don't take into account the reality that people experience when they interact with Asian women on a day to day basis.
In other words, I think focusing on media is a bad way to prove or disprove, generally, whether a certain group of people is one way or another, or what a certain group of people think about another group of people.
It also ignores whether one person should be one way or another, or should do things for the sake of a perceived stereotype.
quote: B) I'm not sure what you mean by "the actual stereotype for a lot of Asian women". Stereotypes are what certain people think about a group, in this case what certain Western people think about Asian women.
See above.
quote: C) Don't know what you mean by conflict perspective. But your assertion that the link is wrong because you do not believe the stereotype is rather odd. Stereotypes merely have to be held by some people, in some cases many people. Not all members of a group have to believe the stereotype in order for it to exist. In this case, its well documented that a fair number of people hold these beliefs. Whether you believe in it or not has no bearing on their beliefs.
It is well documented that some people have used certain images in art. What those images mean is going to differ from person to person. To use this thread as an example, the person(s) in your link would probably look at Mae the same way Orincoro does, yet it is clear from this thread that their perspective isn't true for a lot of people. So, the documentation itself has a high degree of questionability.
The images themselves don't speak to how seriously the artists take those images outside of the art, or how seriously the audience does, or take into account other images which contribute to the overall view of a certain group of people. To take another example of a thread on this forum which highlights the conflict view (two groups must be in conflict. That is the totality of their relationship), Altariel's thread uses as examples a bunch of things, yet doesn't include any counter examples. This prejudices people to think that this is the totality of the way certain groups view each other, or that the dynamics that two groups interact in are destructive. Her thread didn't include the many examples of the groups getting along. It didn't include examples of the positive aspects that contribute to how disparate groups view each other, just as your link does.
As a person who looks at many of those images and is in the culture under discussion, I am a perfectly valid point to use to indicate whether a stereotype is true. If I don't see that the hypothetical stereotypes are being used by me or people around me, then it's perfectly valid to say so and might very well indicate that the belief that some ideas are widely held stereotypes is wrong or right. Though, of course, it doesn't prove it.
I think I've exhausted what I have to say in this thread and am retiring from it. Thank you for your time. Good afternoon.
Edit: Tried to kind of clean up the post. I'm at work and kind of typing as I'm working.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Orincoro, nobody wants you to leave the thread.
If this is a conversation you don't want to continue, that's perfectly OK. But don't leave because you think we want you to. We don't.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I didn't particularly care for the music, its probably technically better then anything I could write, but it does not sound that great to me, I can still respect her hard work and talent.
Just sayin, and I don't think Vanessa Mae is really that cute. But even if she was Miss Universe material it does not influence my opinion of her music.
Now Amy Lee of Evanescence is a whole different ball game. When she is done up the right way she is gorgeous, and her musical style is REALLY enjoyable to listen to. I never get tired of, "Call Me When You're Sober."
I have a wicked Castlevania sounding organ song that I've been hard at work on, if only I could record the stupid thing.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
