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It is unlikely that people familiar with the history believe that Paul made it all up. There was a community of Jesus followers that had a hard to deny footprint in history prior to Paul entering the scene.
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posted
You probably need to provide a source for such a thing. And in any case, the fact that there were groups that believed in this or that messianic figure isn't the issue. Paul focused on one of those, and made it the "star" of the show.
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posted
Hey, I'm familiar with history and find it unlikely that Jesus was made up. Just sayin'.
(What are the chances that after 3 hours of inactivity, 2 people post at almost the exact same time?)
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quote:Originally posted by Jim-Me: Edit to add: The Josephus above was quoted by Eusebius. The accuracy of this quote has been disputed by multiple scholars, citing that Early Christians familiar with Josephus seemed not to be aware of the particular quote (notably Origen and Clement). Nonetheless, they do seem to be aware of another, less dramatic quote regarding Jesus.
posted
I doubt Paul did it for the chicks, given the things he wrote. Power and prestige, maybe. Dunno why he'd allow himself to be jailed and killed over it if he were faking. I suppose it's possible he started out as a manipulator and ended up believing his own preaching. Or he didn't suffer quite as much as he claimed. Do we have extra-Biblical evidence that Paul was executed for his beliefs?
Also, has anyone ever gotten the impression from his writing that perhaps Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was homosexuality? It might explain the whole "gift of celibacy" thing. However, I see no way of deciding one way or the other.
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I have wondered about it, Shigosei. I have read that "scholars" believe it was some sort of epilepsy.
I'm not sure that we have Biblical documentation of Paul's execution. He certainly seems to expect martyrdom in some of his writings.
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It's possible although homosexuality wasn"t really understood the same way then that we understand it now. People didn't so much identify with sexual orientation.
I think that, more likely, it was that Paul was heavily influenced by the Stoics who shunned physical pleasure, strong emotion, appetite etc.
Also he was trying to bring Greeks into what was a Jewish movement. A great deal of negotiating had to be done regarding how much of the law these newcomers had to follow. Food and circumsion for example.
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quote:I doubt Paul did it for the chicks, given the things he wrote. Power and prestige, maybe. Dunno why he'd allow himself to be jailed and killed over it if he were faking.
I don't see that there's any contradiction between believing that women should take your order and shut up in church, and enjoying their company in bed. As for faking it, again, why did Joseph Smith allow himself to get jailed? Jail is a temporary condition, admiration from your followers is permanent.
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quote:I doubt Paul did it for the chicks, given the things he wrote. Power and prestige, maybe. Dunno why he'd allow himself to be jailed and killed over it if he were faking.
I don't see that there's any contradiction between believing that women should take your order and shut up in church, and enjoying their company in bed. As for faking it, again, why did Joseph Smith allow himself to get jailed? Jail is a temporary condition, admiration from your followers is permanent.
And what of being beaten numerous times, and living your life with almost at least ONE law suit pending against you, over a hundred appearences in court rooms, poisonings, abandonment by almost everyone you love, and ultimately being killed?
Do you know of anyone else who endured that for the sake of power or the comfort of multiple women's beds?
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ok all... calm down... the "did it for the chicks" thing was meant to be tongue in cheek... let's not get into an argument about whether religious figures are in it for sex, please? I think it's safe to say that anyone would take offense at being told that's why their religion exists. So let's not take my wise crack as carte blanche to violate the ToS...
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It's possible although homosexuality wasn"t really understood the same way then that we understand it now. People didn't so much identify with sexual orientation.
I think that, more likely, it was that Paul was heavily influenced by the Stoics who shunned physical pleasure, strong emotion, appetite etc.
Also he was trying to bring Greeks into what was a Jewish movement. A great deal of negotiating had to be done regarding how much of the law these newcomers had to follow. Food and circumsion for example.
I know you were not speaking to me kmbboots, and I hope you will forgive the intrusion. But I have always had trouble swallowing that argument.
For one thing I believe Paul actually strongly disagreed with the stoics, neoplatonics, and the gnostics.
I also do not think it is a current doctrine even TODAY that a person's gender can be female and that their anatomy can be male or vice versa. I would propose and I think Paul agrees with me that every man and woman has a soul, and that soul is certainly male or female, it is from there that we get our gender. If we were God's sons and daughters before we were born, it seems consistent that we would remain sons and daughters after being born. Since there are far more verses condemning the act of homosexual intercourse and encouraging a coupling amongst opposing sexes I think the weight of evidence is against God allowing us to decide what gender we are and to act accordingly. But I invite you to cite your own passages.
If equally sanctifying love were possible in Christianity between males and males or females and females, why do you suppose no mention is made of it? Interpolations by men?
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I think that on denying the physical/temporal world and concentrating on the spiritual world Paul was very much in line with the Stoics. And by that time, the Stoics and the Epicureans were opposed.
I should have been more clear, by sexual orientation I meant heterosexual, bisexual etc., not one's gender identity. Though it does beg the question of what soul people with gender differentiation have?
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quote:I think that on denying the physical/temporal world and concentrating on the spiritual world Paul was very much in line with the Stoics. And by that time, the Stoics and the Epicureans were opposed.
Well on that point Jesus himself would heartily agree. But I think the gnostics took it way to far with their whole, "Torture and kill the physical body to bring free the spirit." I don't get the impression from Paul's writings that he felt that our bodies are a curse.
quote: I should have been more clear, by sexual orientation I meant heterosexual, bisexual etc., not one's gender identity. Though it does beg the question of what soul people with gender differentiation have?
Indeed, I personally think the gender of one's soul is almost always obvious, but hey Ill concede my opinion matters little.
I do think the current trend of separating gender with sex has exacerbated the confusion people feel with their own sexual identity.
Thanks for that clarification kmbboots.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I should have been more clear, by sexual orientation I meant heterosexual, bisexual etc., not one's gender identity. Though it does beg the question of what soul people with gender differentiation have?
Do you believe that people with gender differentiation are literally "women stuck in men's bodies" and vice versa?
This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, I'm just curious.
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quote:I should have been more clear, by sexual orientation I meant heterosexual, bisexual etc., not one's gender identity. Though it does beg the question of what soul people with gender differentiation have?
Indeed, I personally think the gender of one's soul is almost always obvious, but hey Ill concede my opinion matters little.
I don't think souls have gender/sex. At least not when a person is born. I think it's a function of chemistry and/or brain structure. But then, I don't think souls are differentiated at all prior to birth (or conception, or whenever). I think they start out tabula rasa, except for their connection to God, and they grow inside of us, becoming what they become over a person's lifetime.
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: Do you believe that people with gender differentiation are literally "women stuck in men's bodies" and vice versa?
Not for nothing, but "gender differentiation" doesn't mean what you think it does. It refers, if anything, to a stage in fetal development where the fetus develops morphologically as a female or a male. You're talking about gender dysphoria.
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Lisa: How to reconcile that idea with Job 38:3-7?
If you do not think the events outlined in Job actually took place, I can understand that. But if its true and God actually said that, the sons in that verse were cheering as God laid the foundation of the earth.
Why should humans as they existed before being born be devoid of a sex? At what general point would you say the sex of a human is set more or less in stone?
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: Do you believe that people with gender differentiation are literally "women stuck in men's bodies" and vice versa?
Not for nothing, but "gender differentiation" doesn't mean what you think it does. It refers, if anything, to a stage in fetal development where the fetus develops morphologically as a female or a male. You're talking about gender dysphoria.
Ah, thank you. That will show me to read too fast. Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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My fault. I posted in a hurry and wasn't clear. When I referred to gender differentiation my intent was to refer to people whose gender differentiation (fetal development of gender) differs from the usual pattern. I was searching for a way to say this without using "disorder" or other perjorative term (because it isn't necessarily inherently "bad", but I got interrupted and forgot to finish before I posted.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Lisa: How to reconcile that idea with Job 38:3-7?
If you do not think the events outlined in Job actually took place, I can understand that.
I'm not sure if the events did, but this isn't a narrative event. This is citing God, and even if God didn't say those exact words (it's in the Writings, after all, and not the Torah), it's still true.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: But if its true and God actually said that, the sons in that verse were cheering as God laid the foundation of the earth.
Angels. God is the father of all creation.
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Why should humans as they existed before being born be devoid of a sex? At what general point would you say the sex of a human is set more or less in stone?
<shrug> I don't know. I think that a person's sense of gender identity is hardwired into them, physically. In most cases, that means that an XY person develops a sense of self which is male, and an XX person develops a sense of self which is female.
But there are many intersex conditions, where individuals have some physical characteristics of both sexes. In its most extreme case, this is known as hermaphroditism, but there are cases that aren't nearly as extreme. This is medical fact. What isn't medical fact at this point in time, but isn't a stretch, I don't think, is that it's possible for a person who is slightly intersexed to be XY and anatomically male to all appearances, but have female characteristics in whatever part of the brain is responsible for the development of gender identity.
So when you ask "at what point", it's hard to say. If someone like this were to undergo brain surgery of a type that's currently not medically feasible to have that part of the brain adjusted to match the rest of his body, would he grow up with a male gender identity to match his anatomy? Probably. What if this were done at the age of 6? Would the 6 years of development with an essentially female brain have introduced changes into the person's personality/soul that the physical adjustment could only partly compensate for? Beats me. What if it were done at the age of 15?
I know that people in this situation today commonly report having known about their situation as early as 3 or 4. That's my experience as well.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: Do you know of anyone else who endured that for the sake of power or the comfort of multiple women's beds?
You might want to consider that your average criminal will spend many years of his life in jail, and is extremely likely to be beaten up when free, because of their chosen means of pursuing wealth.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: And what of being beaten numerous times, and living your life with almost at least ONE law suit pending against you, over a hundred appearences in court rooms, poisonings, abandonment by almost everyone you love, and ultimately being killed?
Do you know of anyone else who endured that for the sake of power or the comfort of multiple women's beds?
A bunch of hip-hop artists? You highly underestimate the power behind notoriety.
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