quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: BB: I was thinking specifically of Danny Elfman. He's taken flack for not being professionally schooled, yet he's an incredibly prolific when it comes to movie scores (and back in the old days, with his rock band.)
He's one of my favorite living composers, but the people who "know how it's done right" hate him.
Heartily agree! I like Danny Elfman alot, but not everything he writes appeals to me. Honestly for me when it comes to music, the hard part is getting whats going on in my head onto paper. I feel that music schools are good for 2 things.
1: They teach you HOW to write down your ideas 2: They expose you to new ideas that might or might not appeal to you.
Note that you can learn how to get your ideas down without even paper (thanks to technology) and you do not need to study and be influenced by others in order to produce beautiful music. I think we are bombarded with enough music just from being out in the world that ANYBODY who puts their mind to it can use it as a mentor.
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quote:But, as the Order of the Stick guy illustrates (heh), one can do simple and faceless well.
OotS isn't faceless. How would you do simple and faceless differently?
I realize OotS isn't faceless, but it has a simple, non-realistic illustrative style. One can be very very minimlistic and still be professional. The xkcd guy isn't that bad. Not as bad as that horrid cartoon in Japan with the badly-drawn child and badly-drawn dinosaur. But it's obvious he's not a comic artist.
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But he obviously is a comic artist. He has a comic, and he's the artist of that comic. He might not be a good one, in your opinion, but that's ultimately just your opinion. Clearly, there are people who find his "unprofessional" style appealing and illustrative. Who are you to say we're wrong?
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posted
I'm looking at this strip -- http://www.xkcd.com/c150.html -- and wondering what a more mannered art style would add to it. How, for example, can you improve on that third panel in any meaningful way?
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I understand that. And she's entitled to her definition. However, she seems to believe that hers is the only valid definition, at least judging from statements like "But it's obvious he's not a comic artist." If I'm wrong about that, I apologize. Regardless, it is clearly NOT "obvious" that her statement is true, because I and several others in this thread have vocally disagreed with it.
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Erm... do I sound upset? I guess I was mildly annoyed while writing my second post, since I had just been equated to a freshman art student and had my point summarily dismissed. But that annoyance has long since faded.
However, I still do disagree with her point of view, and I'm trying to explain why. I don't expect her to necessarily change her mind. She's free to hold and express her opinions, and I'm free to disagree. Isn't that the whole point of these Intar-nets fora?
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Who are you to say I am? We're both just expressing opinions here. I still like you all as people, I promise. Especially Tom Davidson. He's jolly.
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Did I say you were? I think your point of view is perfectly valid. My opinion happens to be that it's possible to appreciate art that doesn't necessarily demonstrate technical skill in the traditional sense, that lack of technique can in fact be a purposeful move intended to draw a particular response from the viewer. I don't think I'm being unfair when I say that your posts in this thread indicate that you DON'T think that is a valid point of view. But again, if I'm mistaken, I apologize.
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posted
I've been cruising through some of those strips and it looks like he's actually pretty good. This one, for instance, is almost something I would hang on my wall. I made my previous statements based on the level of artistry in the Ender strip, and it turns out this guy's actually surprisingly (if not consistently) good.
My opinion on webcomic as a genre, however, is unchanged.
That and FanFic. We can discuss that next if ou like. Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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Still, I encourage you to check out some of the webcomics I mentioned. They really do have beautiful artwork (and I'd be happy to list some more, if you're interested).
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Annie, I don't understand why the one you just linked as wall-worthy is necessarily any better than some of the others that've already been linked here. What about it appeals to you?
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Justa, having spent some time with Annie, I can say with some surety that she does not deserve the snark. She's not an unpleasant snob, believe me. The girl does mixed media with bleach pens.
I actually know very little about art theory besides the basics of composition that every B.A. student picks up, and I'm sure Annie has a reason for considering certain drawings "better" than others. I'm not informed enough on the subject to understand the criteria, so I was asking for explanation.
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But what does your knowing her have to do with my appreciation of or value for any art in any form?
The long and short of it is that there is more less talented people out there than there are exceptionally talented people, but closing exposition to only the talented people is elitist no matter how you spin things. The sweetest, kindest, most bubbly person in the world could be an unabashed elitist about something like socks, but the sweet, kind, bubbly personality traits to not negate that the person is an elitist.
I'm calling her a snob. Maybe you are right and she is a very nice and friendly snob. Doesn't make much difference to me, since this thread isn't about how nice and friendly Annie is.
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My point is that it doesn't make a difference, since my criteria are not contingent on what hers are.
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But, when Annie tells us (assuming she decides to come back here after the abominable way you've treated her), then those of us who know less about art might see something that was not evident to use before. On seeing that, we might entirely disagree with her, but it would still be something I'd be interested in hearing.
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I don't see it either. Maybe I should have simply done a "*growl*" at her instead of openly disapproving of her statements.
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Maybe. If you had already had multiple discussions with her about fanfic and agreed to disagree.
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Actually, I found Annie's original statements worse. I chose to try to blow it off and convence her there were good webcomics out there but she still seems to look down on them as lesser art.
It's fine if she doesn't like it. But it's not lesser art.
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I disagree with Annie both on the merits of webcomics (regardless of artistic merit) and fanfic. And yet, I managed not to deliberately insult her.
Pretty sure she was not trying to insult anyone either.
Justa, OTOH, certainly seems to be deliberately insulting Annie. And has made similarly insulting posts in other threads, directed at other people. (Not necessarily today.)
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rivka: I'm sure you're right... but this thread has been bothering me... more than a little... all day.
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You reacted similarly to comments made in another thread yesterday. Someone can disagree with you -- strongly -- and make negative comments about ideas you have presented and not be making a negative comment about you.
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rivka: Annie wasn't refering to me at all. I'm sure she had no idea that I was an amature cartoonist. She made a sweeping generalization that tarred me and a multitude of far better artists that all work very hard on their art and on improving their art. All you have to do is look at the first installment and the latest installment of almost any webcomic to see that.
I don't want to reopen what happened yesterday in this thread. If you want to discuss it, send me an email. But I won't be brokenhearted if you don't.
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Dagonee, I submit that you are coming to the conclusion of "abominable" based on the member name.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: But does that make it Annie's fault?
You reacted similarly to comments made in another thread yesterday. Someone can disagree with you -- strongly -- and make negative comments about ideas you have presented and not be making a negative comment about you.
Oh, so not about me in particular, or not about others who may be posting or viewing the thread?
quote:Yeah, but that's an easy freshman-in-art-school answer. "But I LIKE it that way!"
Sure, not insulting to anyone here, assuming no one is in art school in their first year and reading it.
quote:But they have to learn how to do it before they consciously choose not to.
With the prevalence of people out there who have webcomics (I know two not on this forum who do), this comment assumes a lot of judgment. I could have sworn that was frowned on, considering how some have gotten literally rabid at me with that accusation.
quote:But I do think it causes us to settle for mediocrity.
Yeah, no way this could be interpreted as a personal insult.
Maybe it doesn't seem very insulting to you, rivka, but those are pretty sweeping value judgments of not just people who are creating those comics, but of anyone who enjoys those comics and holds them in higher esteem. Maybe she doesn't mean to belittle people with art-school-pretense, but as I told Tom it doesn't matter how nice you think the individual is personally, being a friendly snob is still being a snob.
There seems to be two prevalent standards of conduct floating around here.
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posted
Anyway, Annie, I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on what makes that one piece wall-worthier than the others you'd seen.
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I agree that the Internet is full of crap but turns out I don't think this comic is part of aforesaid crap, stick figures and all. I don't think beautiful art would make it much more publishable in a mainstream forum, actually, given the small sample here on hatrack.
So are comics about image or about words? Where do idea and art intersect?
I hope Annie will answer Tom's question. I'm curious about what she'll say. FWIW, and it's not worth much, good grief, I don't think anyone's actually been mean, let alone abhominable. Maybe I think that because I don't think that being snobby is bad. I am DEFINITELY snobby about a variety of topics, and think Annie (and everyone else) is certainly allowed to be as snobby as they want to be about their chosen topics. Not to say that Annie IS being snobby, because then someone might yell at me too.
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quote:Maybe it doesn't seem very insulting to you, rivka, but those are pretty sweeping value judgments of not just people who are creating those comics, but of anyone who enjoys those comics and holds them in higher esteem.
As someone who enjoys those comics and holds them in higher esteem, I disagree.
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Annie, I don't think your arguments are valid.
The free-access medium of the Internet does not water down art. As has been explained, many webcomics are not dreck; their illustrators are artists, and professionals.
quote: Webcomics mean that no one feels like they need to know how to draw anymore. How do we resolve that?
We don't resolve it. It's an okay thing to have happen.
Art is not debased by free webcomics.
quote:
But I do find a disturbing trend with modern technology and desktop publishing to publish things just because we can. This is not a bad thing - many talented people are able to reach audiences this way. But I do think it causes us to settle for mediocrity.
How does free access to content cause the general public to settle for mediocrity?
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I read several webcomics with spectacular art. One of the reasons my girlfriend loves several webcomics is their art, and she's got a strong art background.
Some webcomics are not about art. They are about story and character, or situational humor, or what have you. The art might even be very bad, but it doesn't matter -- its just a support for the other qualities.
People have sketched for themselves for quite some time. Now some of that sketching is finding its way onto the web. I don't think people are producing less good public art, I think they're producing more! But there's also more bad public art.
A comic can also be an excellent way to improve one's artistic abilities. Anyone who's read the really early doonesbury strips can appreciate this.
posted
I would love to hear what Annie has to say, and I have no doubt that even if I disagreed with her, her views would be cogent, passionate, and funny. I hope she does post.
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quote:But I do find a disturbing trend with modern technology and desktop publishing to publish things just because we can. This is not a bad thing - many talented people are able to reach audiences this way. But I do think it causes us to settle for mediocrity.
With youtube and others, it is possible to get hours upon hours of free videos, generally made by amatures.
We post the funny ones on forum threads and tell our friends about them, but they haven't replaced professionally-done TV shows and movies.
Can you think of any reasons why access to free, amature-quality product would have such an affect with the medium of comics, while it failed to do so with videos?
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It is possible for someone to diss something you like (webcomics, your baseball team, Firefly, fanfic) and NOT be dissing you.
It doesn't feel like that. It feels like every stab at something you hold dear is a stab at your very self. It isn't, though. You are not webcomics. You are not the Red Sox, and Mal is not your boyfriend. How someone values a work IS not equal to how someone values a person who likes that work.
Of course, the corollary is true as well. Someone is not cool simply because they identify with cool things. There is a difference between being interesting and being interested.
I'm just musing at this point. Just because this is a heated topic, I'm going to insert the disclaimer that the "you" in the post is the general "you."
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quote:Originally posted by Annie: Those are pretty funny. I especially like the "bored with the internet" one that's linked to at the bottom. I like this dude, whoever he is. However... I am once again vexed. Webcomics mean that no one feels like they need to know how to draw anymore. How do we resolve that?
If I'm not mistaken, the artist is located in Montana.
Or, at least, that's where the return address on the tshirt I got from him was.
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quote:Webcomics mean that no one feels like they need to know how to draw anymore.
I can definitely see how it might feel like this at times, and it might be true for some webcomic artists, but all of those who've allowed some insight into their thoughts (typically by a blog or somesuch) that I have read have been extremely concerned with deficiencies (real and perceived) in their art, and continuously strive to improve.
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quote:I can definitely see how it might feel like this at times, and it might be true for some webcomic artists, but all of those who've allowed some insight into their thoughts (typically by a blog or somesuch) that I have read have been extremely concerned with deficiencies (real and perceived) in their art, and continuously strive to improve.
I think this is especially true of the QC artist. His early work is only slightly better than I could bang out in an afternoon. His later stuff is MILES beyond what I could ever hope to do.
It would be a shame to dismiss his earlier work as "you need to go hire an artist".
On an unrelated note, since when is "slightly rude" now "abominable"? Yeesh.
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posted
Webcomics or indeed any kind of comic aren't about art, they're about the ideas, stories and jokes expressed. If the drawing is sufficient and evocative to effectively serve the purposes of the comic- to make the reader laugh or think or be moved-, how is that not a good thing?
Simplicity does not necessarily equal bad art.
Also, xkcd in particular is often very beautiful. The author can clearly draw well and has a good sense of balance and beauty. The fact that his people and animals are faceless "stick figures" becomes almost irrelevent. What we don't see is almost more evocative than expressions.
I do not believe that writers and artists of webcomics are really viewing their work as a movement against "learned" art. That's not necessarily the goal of their work.
Additionally many artists of all kinds learn by doing not formally. As Xavier just pointed out, comic artists (not necessarily on the web) get better as they go along- this is true of comics like Dilbert as well as things like xkcd or Ctrl+Alt+Del. It's not a new trend or a sign of acceptance of mediocrity; amateur humourists and storytellers have been scratching out jokes on the walls of caves and in the corners of tombs since the dawn of time. Many artists start out rusty. Read, say, Charles deLint's earlier novels- they're simply not of the same quality of books written only half a decade later. The Beatles' early music is basic. Five, ten years later, they were turning out quality stuff that was unlike anything anyone had heard before.
This isn't new. It isn't an acceptance of mediocrity merely a different starting point. It's not even necessarily the point of the exercise in the case of a comic. Finally, it can even be a boon, not a weakness. xkcd's characters are "a man" "a woman" "a man with a hat".
The internet may contain a lot of slush, but I think that slush would exist anyway, only now we get the opportunity to see it.
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The girl does mixed media with bleach pens.
