posted
This may seem like an extremely elementary question on this board. The most fantasy and sci-fi I have read is limited to OSC, JK Rowling, and Tolkein (and CS Lewis, I guess). So pardon my ignorance, but I have some questions:
I am currently reading Eragon and Eldest and I notice some strong similarities between the creatures and lore in both the Paolini series and the Tolkein series. For example, the animosity between elves and dwarfs. The urgles from Eragon sound a lot like the orks and the razack (forgive my Eragon spelling...I'm listening to it...not reading it) sound like Nazgul. So, my questions:
Is all fantasy this repetitive? Are these stories based on some ancient lore that I am ignorant of? Or, is Paolini simply creating a different story based on the races that Tolkein created?
I am enjoying Eragon and Eldest, quite a bit. However, I can't help but thinking, every now and then, that he's ripping off LOTR.
Are there other books I could or should read to get a deeper comparison?
posted
If you think there are significant similarities between Paolini's books and Tolkiens you should comapre the Eragon story to the Star wars story.
Star Wars - A New Hope Youngh kid lives with unlce uncle dies young kid goes off with strange hermit Young kid finds out he is the last of a once powerful group Young kid saves a princess Young kid meets a rogue who helps him in his quest young kid must defeat the evil emperor who turned on his own kind
These are a little out of order but does that sound anything at all like what you read in Eragon?
I'm not knocking the kid, although many people around here will, but he definately borrowed a lot of his ideas from already exsisting material. More so than might be common in fantasy. Fantasy as a genre shares a lot of common themes and you may see those in various books but a good authur will still tell a compeling and original story even if using a common theme such as a young man rising out of the peasantry to accomplish great things and cause world change, yadda, yadda, yadda...
there are many wonderful and original writers in the genre who have a much beter grasp of the english language and how to use dialogue better than Mr. Paolini. There have been many threads started here that share good reading suggestions.
I would suggest these two authors as a place to start expanding your fantasy reading list. Currently two of my favorites
Robin Hobb George R.R. Martin
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posted
Thank you for your reply. I am on a voracious reading kick right now. It helps to know where to begin. Maybe I'll pick up the Star Wars books. Do the movies do them justice or will I enjoy the books much better?
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posted
Actually I've never read the books but since the movies are the original material I'm sure that it isn't much different. Just pointing out how much Paolini borrowed for the movies. And it was a lot.
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posted
The movies came first, the books are a novelization, unless you're reading Extended Universe stuff in which case it varies hugely.
It terms of fantasy, I'd recommend David Gemmell's Rigante series. It's sorta alternate history/fantasy but it's brilliant, if not terribly well known. I read some Robin Hobb and liked it well enough but it didn't really get me that hooked.
I've been listening to The Dresden Files as audio books of late and loved the first two, not so much the third, but we'll see about the rest. That's more sorta modern crime fiction/fantasy. It's really cool (better than the show by far).
Some fantasy to be wary of, Terry Goodkind. It's a long series, and the book vary in quality hugely over the course of the series. The first one Wizard's First Rule is definitely worth a read, it's highly amusing at the least. From there it's a crap shoot whether or not the rest of the series is worth it.
Hmm... that's about all I got fantasy wise. I don't read a whole lot of the stuff I guess when it comes down to it, I do find most of it pretty repetitive or just so far out that it doesn't really catch my interest.
Now if you're asking about sci-fi then I can really recommend some stuff Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Try something like Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea books, or the Magician by Raymond E. Feist.
To see fantasy in a differnt light you could try the Orcs trilogy by Stan Nicholls. You'll never look at an Orc in the same light.
Slightly more tongue in cheek you could try Glory Road by Robert A. Heinlein.
For something that has it's tongue so far in it's cheek that it's almost licking it's ear, you can't get better than Terry Pratchett. To properly debunk Elves, read Lords & Ladies...
That's all for now - but good luck wth your reasearch! Posts: 892 | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I'm no star wars expert. There are definately people here that are better suited to answer those questions but from what I understand...
Star Wars - A new Hope was the first movie made but the 4th part of a 6 part series. Then he made Empire strikes Back and Return of the Jedi in that order.
Years later he decided to tell the first three parts to the story. Basically how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader and sent the universe into the state it was in for the original three movies.
I believe that George Lucas wrote the first movie (A New Hope) then he gave it over to others to help do the writing for the next two. He then wrote and directed the following three prequal movies. I belive he had a general idea or outline for the entire saga but wrote each of the movies as they were made.
Again I am no expert and may be wrong here on some of the details but I think that is the basic idea of how the films were created.
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posted
Thank you for the list...but are those authors recycling the same stories?
Frankly, I don't mind, if it's a well told story. However, I began with Tolkein and that kind of story telling is hard to match, let alone exceed. Will I be comparing all other fantasy stories to Tolkein because their stories are similar?
I'm wondering if Tolkein didn't get his information for some sort of mythology. Does anyone know?
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posted
I don't read much fantasy, but I really enjoyed Roger Zelazny's Amber novels. They may have been ripping something off, but it definitely wasn't Tolkein, and I've never read or heard of what it might be.
They are good stories though, with a lot of fantastic stuff that I have never heard of, but then, again, I'm no big fantasy reader.
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posted
Two of the fantasy authors I'd recommend most to anyone asking would have to be JRR Tolkien and George RR Martin. Perhaps it's ironic, or perhaps not, but both freely admit they draw substantial inspiration from other stories.
For Tolkien, there's a lot of Christianity-inspired themes and, to a certain extent, characters, but even more evident are inspirations from Norse myths.
For Martin, he draws much of his inspiration from real-world history, most especially the history of feuds, politics, diplomacy, and warfare going on in medieval Europe.
That said, there are many authors who pass beyond inspiration and into ripoff territory. The author of the dreadful Shannara books, and Paolini and his Eragon.
For other fantasy recommendations, I'd check out The Dark is Rising(YA) and Jonathon Strange and Mister Norrel. (Heh...although in the case of the second book, you'll note a lot of inspiration from non-fantasy stories!
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quote:I'm wondering if Tolkein didn't get his information for some sort of mythology. Does anyone know?
He stole liberally from a variety of mythologies (esp. Norse), but also intended to create a pseudo-Catholic mythology for Britain at the same time.
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posted
Of the authors I listed above only Brooks really left me feeling like I had heard the story before. He is the author of those "dreadful Shannara Books" I still enjoyed them as a light read but they are definate rip offs of Tolkien.
The others listed are much more original and enjoyable to read without feeling like you've been down this road before.
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posted
Artee, you've discovered the big frustration of a lot of Fantasy readers.
The best description I've read of the thing you're describing is that some authors just take old stories and file off the serial numbers and give everything new names and then write the same stories.
Terry Brooks is another popular author whose early works were accused of being just rehashed Tolkien.
What's frustrating about it, even beyond what you've experienced, is that a lot of fantasy now gets branded based on how much or how little it's like Tolkien. In a way, Tokien IS the mythology every other fantasy book is refrencing.
That's not always bad. Some authors take Tolkienesque scenarios, but twist them in new ways or play up some part of it in a way to make it feel fresh and new.
There's other fantasy out there that's nothing like Tolkien--check out OSC's Alvin Maker series.
And of course, there's the whole spectrum in between.
Most authors are so interested in one kind of magic or one kind of world that they write almost no fantasy that takes place out of the world they've created. Hence, if you find a world you like, you can probably find lots and lots of other books that take place in that world.
Of course, sometimes this can get bad, too. I have friends who've stopped reading Robert Jordan, because even though things felt fresh at first, by the time they got far enough into the series, he started to become so much like himself that he became dull to them. Others still love him.
I'd suggest getting an anothology like the two Robert Silverberg Legends books, which have lots of stories by lots of differnt authors, and seeing which ones tickle your fancy.
You'll find great authors like Card, Silverberg, Tad Williams, the Terrys (Pratchett and Goodiknd), Raymond Feist, Robin Hobb, George RR Martin and Elizabeth Hayden in there. Then you can go out and grab other books of series that interest youl
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posted
Robin Hobb! Yes, I forgot to mention her. Definitely not a Tolkien ripoff there, and her hero is quite unusual in my experience.
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quote:I'm wondering if Tolkein didn't get his information for some sort of mythology. Does anyone know?
Well, as far as I'm aware the basic fight between good and evil is a cornerstone of pretty much all mythologies, and so are also things like the small and vulnerable going against the strong and mighty. The Lord of the Rings formula - going to Mordor to destroy the ring - is pretty much a modern form of all those ancient tales where the hero journeys to the netherworld where the dead reside. The story of Aeneas being perhaps the most famous example, but basically every mythology has a variation of that story.
As for other fantasy writers, I'd also recommend both Robin Hobb and George R. R. Martin.
Hobb does have many basic fantasy clichés in her work, but her writing is very personal and character centric. As such her stories are more about how different people react in the given situation than they are about the situation itself, and also about the moral choices those people make, if that makes sense. Nature also plays an important part in her fiction, and she often likes to question the "self-importance" of man in regards to it. Hobb's masterpiece is the Farseer Trilogy (starting with the book Assassin's Apprentice), in my opinion none of her subsequent books (or the books she wrote before that under the name Megan Lindholm) have reached quite that level.
George R. R. Martin in her Song of Ice and Fire books seems to like taking fantasy clichés and twisting them on their head. For example, he has an ax-wielding dwarf in his series, but this guy is so far from Gimli as it is humanly possible. (Read and you'll see...) With Martin it's as if he was writing an alternative Medieval history book, the lines between good and evil become really blurred as the story progresses, and all sides commit terrible acts. What started as a simply straightforward-looking conflict in the first book with clearly definable good and a bad side has become so muddled not even all the characters themselves are sure who they're fighting anymore - kind of like in many real life conflicts. (Chechnya immediately comes to mind.)
Anyway... the short answer, both Hobb and Martin are totally different from Tolkien.
(Also, all this is keeping in mind that fantasy is a very large genre, not all of it has to be medieval sword-and-sorcery stuff, of course.)
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quote: There's other fantasy out there that's nothing like Tolkien--check out OSC's Alvin Maker series.
The Alvin Maker series is what got me reading OSC. It was my first jump into fantasy/sci-fi. What I have discovered with OSC is I see his story lines crossing. I've read about 25 of his books and I had to take a break (though I read some over and over).
I'll look into Robin Hobb. Thanks for all the input.
quote: He stole liberally from a variety of mythologies (esp. Norse), but also intended to create a pseudo-Catholic mythology for Britain at the same time.
Now that you mention it, I do remember hearing that. Maybe I should do some reading into Norse mythology.
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posted
Norse mythology is quite interesting stuff.
More to the point of your original question though, I find that most mythologies have several elements in common with other mythologies, even if they're from opposite sides of the world. This is, I think, human nature, so it doesn't bother me so much when fantasy authors do the same thing. When it is a complete rip-off then it bothers me, but similarities can't be helped.
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quote: This is, I think, human nature, so it doesn't bother me so much when fantasy authors do the same thing. When it is a complete rip-off then it bothers me, but similarities can't be helped.
I agree. I guess I wanted to know where Tolkein got his ideas so that I would quit compairing all fantasy works to his and to the mythology on which many stories were originally based. Maybe if I do some reading on Norse mythology I can accomplish that. It's just not fair to writers to be compared to another author who borrowed their work, too.
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posted
"Tolkien's Ring" by David Day is a pretty good run-down of the world mythology Tolkien had on the back-burner when he wrote. Pretty illustrations, too.
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posted
I recommend both Susan Cooper and Lloyd Alexander to anyone starting off reading Fantasy. They are both listed as young adult, but I enjoy reading them even now, at age 37. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sean McMullen. He has two series that I like, the Greatwinter Trilogy and the Moonworlds' Saga. Greatwinter is pretty much sci fi, and is very unique in plot and style (IMHO). Moonworlds is fantasy and are loosely based on classic sci fi and mythology plots, but they're well written and definitely have a lot of original elements.
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posted
If you're looking for fantasy that steps outside Tolkien's shadow, a couple of authors I'd suggest considering are Guy Gavriel Kay (provided you don't read the Fionavar Tapestry, which is his take on the Tolkien thing) and R. Scott Bakker. I'm not so into Bakker, but he's definitely not in the Tolkien mold.
From Kay I'd recommend The Sarantine Mosaic, starting with Sailing to Sarantium, or possibly the standalone The Lions of Al-Rassan. From Bakker the Prince of Nothing series, though I've only read the first one, The Darkness that Comes Before.
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quote:Originally posted by aretee: The movies were the original in Star Wars? So, Star Wars really is the first movie and they decided to make 3 pre-quels? I'm so confused.
quote:Originally posted by vonk: I don't read much fantasy, but I really enjoyed Roger Zelazny's Amber novels. They may have been ripping something off, but it definitely wasn't Tolkein, and I've never read or heard of what it might be.
Now you have. It was strongly inspired by Phillip Jose Farmer's World of Tiers series.
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posted
Dave Duncan's "A Man of His Word" series (4 books), and the sequel "A Handful of Men (4 more books. And his "The Seventh Sword" trilogy. Yummy!
David Edding's Belgariad and Mallorean (each 5 books, the second group being a sequel (and more or less a repetition) of the first.
Stephen R. Donaldson's "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever", "The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant", and "Mordant's Need". The first two are trilogies and related, while the last is two books and is unrelated to anything else.
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posted
This is the second day in a row that I've had reason to think of the Mythology and Folklore class i took in college. Neat!
One thing we talked about in the class is that there's really no original stories, only original retellings of stories. Many themes and archetypes appear over and over in stories. One such archetype is the Hero Myth, which is often found in fantasy stories. Joseph Campbell writes about the hero myth in "Hero With a Thousand Faces", which was a great influence on George Lucas when making the Star Wars movies.
One of our text books had an article (I forget the author/title) that had a numbered list of criteria for heroes. Stuff like "born in a foreign land", "doesn't know his true parents", "raised by others", etc. It was fun to see how many heroes from popular stories fit into these criteria. Not all criteria would fit a particular hero, but it became clear how much heroes have in common.
So yeah, it's not really a surprise at all that fantasy seems derivative of previous works, because it is derivative. That doesn't mean that this is bad. The goal of the author, then, is to tell the same old story in a fresh and exciting new way.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Grace Chetwin. No one knows who the heck she is, but her writing is so beautiful and melancholy. She write YA fantasy, but like OSC says, thats where some of the best fantasy stories can be found.
Posts: 1286 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I am continually shocked whenever I see fantasy threads and nobody mentions Jane Lindskold.
She is my favorite author (Tied with OSC).
A couple of her earlier books reeked of Zelazny (I like Zelazny, but not on other people), but her latest books are really original. She wrote 'Through Wolf's Eyes', and 5 other books in the series. And she's great, because as Charles DeLint says, she 'plays fair' with her readers. Each book stands on its own, even though it's building so much on the previous books. The only bad book in the series was the third one, where she worked in a dragon (Definitetly not the type of dragon that you would be familiar with), and it kind of protruded from the series. But other than that, she builds incredible worlds. And ignore the cover art on her earlier books. She doesn't pick the cover art, and she has gotten stuck with 'fluffly bunny' art. Just in case anybody here judges a book by its cover. She wrote two novels of Athanor, and finished two books of Zelazny, after he died. I mean, I know she had a relationship with Zelazny, but he did *not* bolster her sucess for her. She's a great writer.
<Sigh> Okay, I'm done now. Sorry. The rant has been building for some time now.
I guess I'm falling into the Zelazny/Lindskold/Stirling/DeLint camp. But I'm also in the Martin/Hobb camp, too. And the OSC camp (I can't really classify him.) I don't think the books are all the different... Well, they *are* different, after all, that's what makes them good, but they are all similar in that they are good... I don't know.
PS: I don't think Zelazny intentionally ripped off Farmer, and even then, there was so much more to the Amber novels than a system of 'tiers'. But, I digress.
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posted
Nathan, thanks! I thought that series ended with the Dragon of Despair, and I was sad. Now I'll go hunt down the others.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Raventhief: Sean McMullen. He has two series that I like, the Greatwinter Trilogy and the Moonworlds' Saga. Greatwinter is pretty much sci fi, and is very unique in plot and style (IMHO). Moonworlds is fantasy and are loosely based on classic sci fi and mythology plots, but they're well written and definitely have a lot of original elements.
I was about to recommend this. The Miocene Arrow is amazing. It's a shame more people haven't read the Greatwinter series.
posted
Right now, I would not recommend Robert Jordan to anyone- even if they would love it. I am currently avoiding series that are not complete though and I don't trust that wheel of time will ever be complete.
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posted
Charles DeLint pioneered the Modern Fantasy genre which will really shake up your preconceived notions of fantasy cliches.
I took a college level course on Tolkien. To begin to understand where the inspiration for his world came from just read the following:
Norse Mythology (The Fates, elves, dwarves, etc.) La Morte De Arthur (Gondor and the behavior of the Numerians, not to mention Galadriel) The Bible with much Catholic support writings. (Gandalph the White, Frodo's sacrifice, etc) Icelandic Sagas (For the Rhohan ideals) Beowulf just because.
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posted
I read this really cool fantasy short story about a Mormon werewolf a while back. Very different from your typical fantasy, and very good stuff. Now who was it who wrote that?
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posted
Neil Gaiman writes novels that are very accessible and are a ton of fun to read, especially if you're a fan of British-style humor. They also bear little to no resemblance to Tolkien.
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posted
It's one of Scott R's stories, and it's quite good. My post was more a nudge at him than a nudge at everybody else, though.
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edit: I wasn't making fun of the premise, at least not in that I think it is a dumb idea. I just find it humorous, in a good way.
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posted
Much I dislike all the ripping off that happens in Eragon and Eldest...I can't wait to see how it ends.
Many of the names are directly out of Tolkien, which means I think he stole more from Sindarin than any of the mythologies, but the plot is lifted heavily from Star Wars, even onto the second book.
I do like the world he has created, even if much of it is a bit cumbersome. The third book is supposed to come out this summer, and I'm very excited about reading it. I guess I should say I don't appreciate his writing (which is adequate, but I don't think as bad as many say, nor is it much better), or his originality (which seems to be lacking in...existance), but I favor his imagination in wrapping together several old ideas into something new, and Alagaesia has a fun flavor to it.
But I have a hard time moving much past Tolkien and the Star Wars EU, which I love to death. Read more Tolkien! And check out Timothy Zahn and Michael A Stackpole for some great sci-fi.
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quote: you might like Dave Wolverton's Golden Queen series. It's sometimes published under the psydonymn David Farland.
Thanks for the info, docmagik. I've got Farland's Runelords series, and I love his world and magic. I like the moral questions he raises and where he goes with it. I found it very satisfying.
Now that I know his real name, I can go find more of his stuff.
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posted
If you're looking for creative, less derivitive works, I would highly recommend China Meiville and Neil Gaiman. Both write fantastic stories, and both write stories with a lot of new ideas, and new twists on older themes.
Garth Nix writes very entertaining YA books too. The Keys to the Kingdom series is lots of fun, and the Seventh Tower series is great as well.
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