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Author Topic: Today on "What were they thinking?"
Dagonee
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Teachers stage fake gunman attack on sixth-graders

quote:
During the last night of the trip, staff members convinced the 69 students that there was a gunman on the loose. They were told to lie on the floor or hide underneath tables and stay quiet. A teacher, disguised in a hooded sweat shirt, even pulled on a locked door.

After the lights went out, about 20 kids started to cry, 11-year-old Shay Naylor said.

"I was like, 'Oh My God,' " she said. "At first I thought I was going to die. We flipped out."

Principal Catherine Stephens declined to say whether the staff members involved would face disciplinary action, but said the situation "involved poor judgment."

Since the Va. Tech shooting, at least one student has been punished because he was in possession of a Quake (or other FPS) map of his school, which was used for online matches, and another was arrested for including violent imagery in a stream of consciousness exercise which included instructions to write continuously and not to judge the writing during the exercise.
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Nighthawk
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quote:
...has been punished because he was in possession of a Quake (or other FPS) map of his school...
Now that I think of it, my high school's layout would have been a fantastic Quake map.

I was wondering how long it would take to blame a video game.

I probably did a lot of things when I went to high school that are considerably more dangerous than this. By today's standards, I'd probably be institutionalized by now.

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ClaudiaTherese
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I can't see how anyone could think this would be a good idea.

---

Edited to add: Regarding the others, I wonder if the young man with violent imagery had been on the radar for other things. I could see how th arrest would be outrageous, but I could also imagine a situation in which some young guy was obviously deliberately trying to terrorize people and just exploiting the lack of restrictions in this particular exercise (that is, where this is only one piece of the puzzle, although it got reported as the whole thing). Obviously, I have no clue where the actuality lies on the continuum.

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Uprooted
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[Eek!]

What were they thinking?

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ClaudiaTherese
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Re: student with violent imagery

CHicago Tribune story -- seems to be same case.

I think there really may have been an ongoing issue of red flags with this student. Maybe more context would make more sense of it.
quote:
Emling [a close friend of his] said another recent English assignment was to write a 32-page children's book. Lee's book was about Hitler as a baby taking over the playground, Emling said.
I don't know if the steps that resulted in the arrest were justified. I do think there is likely more to the story than we've seen.

---

Edited to add:

From another Chicago Tribune story:
quote:
The goals this month for Lee's Creative English class were for students to communicate ideas and emotions through writing. But students were warned that if they wrote something that posed a threat to self or others, the school could take action, said Community High School District 155 Supt. Jill Hawk.

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Dagonee
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Immediate problems that spring to mind:

1.) Is lying quietly on the floor a good defense? I don't know. I bet these teachers don't, either. Were experts consulted?

2.) Trauma to the children. Do the children need to think it's real in order to practice whatever the best response might be?

3.) Standard, predictable responses to non-sapient threats such as a fire make good sense - it allow students to act if needed in a familiar manner and it allows fire personnel to predict what people might do. Fire does not adjust itself to the response in order to trap as many people as possible. A gunmen who knows the standard response - and the gunmen in question would likely have participated in drills - can adjust to the response. This goes along with #1.

quote:
Regarding the others, I wonder if the young man with violent imagery had been on the radar for other things. I could see how th arrest would be outrageous, but I could also imagine a situation in which some young guy was obviously deliberately trying to terrorize people and just exploiting the lack of restrictions in this particular exercise (that is, where this is only one piece of the puzzle, although it got reported as the whole thing). Obviously, I have no clue where the actuality lies on the continuum.
I can't find the link right now, or I'd post it. I agree there's a continuum, and that reporting is likely to leave out other information. My impression from what I've read - including the essay - was that it was only the essay that spurred this (edit to clarify: the arrest) on. The school reacting in some way seemed reasonable to me.

The arrest did not, though. There was nothing in the essay that was threatening other than the presence of the violent imagery.

Of course, that's basically useless for you to form your own evaluation of the situation. The real relevance here, and the reason I included it, is that it is evidence of how on edge our society is, and that this should have made the teachers at least seek approval of their little drill.

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BlackBlade
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If we punish people for expressing violent sentiments in their writing, we have only ourselves to blame when the violent stop writing their thoughts down and start planning other means of expression.

To me, that was a terrible way to inform kids on the dangers of the school gunman. But honestly speaking I think there needs to be some creation of materials that teachers could use to train their students as THAT particular danger does warrant preparation. Harshly punishing teachers for trying to take the initiative however poorly it was executed is not a good precedent to set. Other teachers who are also going ahead and trying to prepare their students for just such a disaster might start thinking, "To hell with it, I'll just teach them history and shut up."

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Dagonee
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Thanks for the additional detail, CT. My natural impulse is to focus only on the arrest, and the justification for the arrest scares me.

The question of the school's response is no less important, but one which I am less qualified to opine and which requires far more facts than we're likely to get from the paper.

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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
The real relevance here, and the reason I included it, is that it is evidence of how on edge our society is, and that this should have made the teachers at least seek approval of their little drill.

Certainly agreed. I also agree with your 3 points above.

----

I'm reposting two snippets from Chicago Tribune articles (linked above) here, just for completeness so they don't get lost in the shuffle:
quote:
Emling [a close friend of his] said another recent English assignment was to write a 32-page children's book. Lee's book was about Hitler as a baby taking over the playground, Emling said.
quote:
The goals this month for Lee's Creative English class were for students to communicate ideas and emotions through writing. But students were warned that if they wrote something that posed a threat to self or others, the school could take action, said Community High School District 155 Supt. Jill Hawk.
---

Edited again to add: ( [Smile] -- fast fingers, slow forum)
I also agree that we aren't likely to get enough info from the papers to judge the response with much degree of accuracy. Worth noting a potential civil rights issue, though, and it looks like the ACLU is involved.

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Morbo
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
Immediate problems that spring to mind:

1.) Is lying quietly on the floor a good defense? I don't know. I bet these teachers don't, either. Were experts consulted?

Ask the kids that were having the Quake/school map matches online if it's a workable defense. [Wink]
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Qaz
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That teenager who got charged with a crime for writing the stream-of-consciousness exercise applied to join the Marines, but they dropped him because of this, they said.
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ClaudiaTherese
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My further reading suggested that the school was working with the student to discharge/remove (can't remember the exact wording) the complaint, at which time he would be eligible to reapply to the Marines.
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Dagonee
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quote:
My further reading suggested that the school was working with the student to discharge/remove (can't remember the exact wording) the complaint, at which time he would be eligible to reapply to the Marines.
Excellent.* Thanks for looking into this more - I haven't really kept track.

*Refers only to the complaint being dropped. Right now, I don't feel up to even thinking about whether I want him in the Marines. But my opinion on the arrest was firm. [Smile]

quote:
Ask the kids that were having the Quake/school map matches online if it's a workable defense.
:|

I bet there are situations where doing that would save lives. I don't know how often that would be true, and I don't know if it's possible to evaluate that from inside the school during an incident. Therefore, I have no idea if it makes sense to teach that as "the" solution.

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MightyCow
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Back in the day, I tried to make a quake map of my school. I still haven't attacked anyone. I guess video game playing is an inaccurate predictor for real life violence.

Obviously, the teachers need to show the kids where the health packs and red armor are located, and how to rocket jump. Those are survival skills that will keep them alive in a Quake match. You'll never get on the leader board by laying on the floor.

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Nighthawk
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quote:
I guess video game playing is an inaccurate predictor for real life violence.
If it was, I'd be on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list.
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BlackBlade
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As much as we joke about it, I thinkt the point of hiding under desks is to minimize the number of students the gunman can shoot at one time, as well as allowing the police to be able to do their jobs more efficiently. What I would suggest is that some sort of means to barracade the door in your typical classroom be divised.

The inability to keep the gun man from opening the door baring physically placing your body in the way was something very noticeable in the VT shootings. Bullets penetrate doors, perhaps a remedy for that could be invented. Either make the doors more secure or lockable, or else make them sturdier so gun man can't just shoot through it as a means to gain access.

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Nighthawk
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quote:
Bullets penetrate doors, perhaps a remedy for that could be invented.
My high school had steel plated doors and wire mesh over the glass. Unless you're firing armour piercing rounds, you ain't firing through that.

*EDIT*: But, then again, my school is one of the wealthiest in South Florida. I doubt your typical low budget public school would fork over the dough for that, but in light of recent events you never know.

But, once he's in the classroom, there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do. And a school desk isn't going to be much help, especially when they can be broken with one's bare hands.

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Paul Goldner
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Probably experts were consulted, since getting out of sight of windows/doors, etc, and being quiet and still, locking the classroom doors, and barricading in, is what is recommended to schools for a shooter situation.
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Teshi
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We had lockdown drills all the time at school, sometimes for drill and other times for drug searches. We were never, however, told that it was real when it wasn't.

Ours was to get out of the hallways, close and lock the doors, turn off the classroom lights and sit against the door wall away from the doors. It's standard procedure.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Probably experts were consulted, since getting out of sight of windows/doors, etc, and being quiet and still, locking the classroom doors, and barricading in, is what is recommended to schools for a shooter situation.
I'm trying to figure out a scenario where experts got consulted, the principal wasn't informed, and the teachers told the children it was real. Can't come up with one, for any meaningful definition of "experts."
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Paul Goldner
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Going for the "I'm going to ignore the context of the question I asked so I can be condescending to another poster" approach, I see.
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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
*Refers only to the complaint being dropped. Right now, I don't feel up to even thinking about whether I want him in the Marines. But my opinion on the arrest was firm. [Smile]

Was it that you think "disorderly conduct" was erroneously applied, or that you do not think "disorderly conduct" as a charge is ever appropriate, or something else?

*honestly curious, happy to drop it if it isn't an interesting topic for you at this time

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Dagonee
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quote:
Going for the "I'm going to ignore the context of the question I asked so I can be condescending to another poster" approach, I see.
Um, no. I was commenting on the general screwed up nature of the implementation here. It doesn't sound like experts were consulted.

As for ignoring the context of the question I asked, I didn't do that.

Nor was what I said condescending, except possibly to the teachers who thought this was a good idea.

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Dagonee
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quote:
Was it that you think "disorderly conduct" was erroneously applied, or that you do not think "disorderly conduct" as a charge is ever appropriate, or something else?

*honestly curious, happy to drop it if it isn't an interesting topic for you at this time

Unless there is some very obscure case law somewhere, I think disorderly conduct was misapplied. I do think there are vagueness issues with most disorderly conduct laws. Such issues are most problematic when applied in a manner that chills free expression.

Beyond that, and based on the newspaper accounts, there's a serious free speech issue here. The essay as I recall it did not contain any speech traditionally thought of as unprotected.

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Paul Goldner
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The context of the question you posed, your number one above, was the defence mechanims. "1.) Is lying quietly on the floor a good defense? I don't know. I bet these teachers don't, either. Were experts consulted?"

Yes, it is. Its a good mechanism. Its what experts suggest for school lockdowns.

Its also what I was responding to. I wasn't saying anything other then about defense mechanisms, which was the context of the query about experts.

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ClaudiaTherese
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Thanks. Interesting.
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Dagonee
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Goldner:
The context of the question you posed, your number one above, was the defence mechanims. "1.) Is lying quietly on the floor a good defense? I don't know. I bet these teachers don't, either. Were experts consulted?"

Yes, it is. Its a good mechanism. Its what experts suggest for school lockdowns.

Its also what I was responding to. I wasn't saying anything other then about defense mechanisms, which was the context of the query about experts.

Yes, I got that. To me, it appears as if they read about it somewhere but did not actually consult experts about the best way to teach children to respond to the situation.

Further, we can't tell from the article where they were told to lie. Position matters - a lot - and it depends a lot on the structure of the wall and the security of the doors.

But you know what? I don't care anymore. You've twice called me an asshole now, and you clearly look for ways to be offended by me. Whatever. Go ahead, be offended.

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GaalDornick
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quote:
But, then again, my school is one of the wealthiest in South Florida.
If you don't mind saying, what high school did you go to?
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Nighthawk
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
quote:
But, then again, my school is one of the wealthiest in South Florida.
If you don't mind saying, what high school did you go to?
Belen Jesuit Preparatory High School - Miami, Florida, Class of '89
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porcelain girl
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When I was in school we had safety drills for things like a violent intruder on campus. We were taught coded phrases that they could use over the intercom in case of an emergency, and also practiced some lockdown techniques-- but we were never LIED to about an emergency to "teach us a lesson." Holy smokes.

The closes thing that we ever did was we would be alerted that there would be a fire drill or some other drill some time during the week/day, but they wouldn't always say the exact time.

That is so wrong on so many levels, if the teachers aren't fired, I think i would sue as a parent.

What the hizz-ay.

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Glenn Arnold
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I'm not trying to justify this, but when I was doing my student teaching the school was in an inner city neighborhood, and we did lock down drills regularly.

It was standard procedure to call "code purple" for a lock down without further information to make a distinction between a drill and the real thing.

During my last two weeks when I had taken over for the regular teacher, and was alone in the room with the class, they called a code purple. The kids moved away from the door, and stood against the wall, but they wouldn't stop talking. I kept shushing them, but short of raising my voice and telling them to take it seriously, there wasn't much I could do. *see below.

Eventually they made an announcement that we could continue to teach our classes, but they didn't lift the code purple. Turned out that three blocks away there had been a shooting. They locked us down because they were afraid the shooter might run into the schoolyard and take hostages. We stayed on lockdown, which by that point simply meant that there was no recess with lunch, the outside doors were locked, and nobody was to walk in front of the main entry doors.

When I told the kids that we really were on lockdown, and that they shouldn't have been talking, it made quite an impression.

* It occurs to me here that another option would have been to tell the class that this wasn't a drill, even though I didn't know that at the time. I didn't know the difference, and neither did they. I didn't make a big deal about it for roughly the same reason they wouldn't stop talking: we had so many drills that it was annoying. Boy who cried wolf and all that.

In any case, I can see that if a school had been unable to get their students to take a lockdown drill seriously, they might kick it up a notch by staging a situation like this.

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Bella Bee
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When I was eight, I had a teacher who once had us make illustrated plans for how we'd murder one of our classmates, with guns and knives, drowning etc. This, at a time when there'd recently been a high-profile murder case where two children had tortured and killed a toddler (which was, he told us, what had given him the idea).

He got in a bit of trouble for that. About three kids were withdrawn from the school by their parents. (Parents who presumably had no idea about the many OTHER very odd practices at that school - people don't believe me when I tell them some of the stuff that was going on at that place...)

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aspectre
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"Harshly punishing teachers for trying to take the initiative however poorly it was executed is not a good precedent to set."

Precisely how does the staff members' behaviour differ from that of real gunmen threatening to kill those children.
Lock 'em up, then throw away the key.

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aspectre
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Apparently, threatening to murder students is just good clean fun.
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Dagonee
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From your second link:

quote:
Once shots are fired, the other characters start running around with their hands in the air screaming. A song, Shine by the band Collective Soul, is played on a loop in the background.
Collective Soul ought to sue him back to the stone age.
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BlackBlade
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When I was in boy scouts, we learned about emergency preparedness and response. The next week we went on a camp out and in the middle of the day our scout master asked us, "Where's Donald?"

We immediately began employing the very skills we had learned in searching for him, we were extremely concerned for our friend. I located him and immediately alerted the rest of the troop. Once we converged on him he was wailing and crying in pain. His leg appeared to be broken. Some hikers on a bridge above us called down, and we shouted to them to call an ambulance.

We fashioned a splint and a stretcher out of branches, leaves, and our clothing and we carried him up to the bridge where an ambulance could get to him. He seemed to be going into shock as well so we carried him up the 50 degree incline as fast as we could, we were extremely concerned for our friend. Upon making it to the top our scout master told us how proud he was that we had been so efficient at responding to the situation, he critiqued some of our mistakes, and then informed Donald that he could get up.

Donald got up and started laughing and all of us started laughing in relief that the whole thing had been an act to give us a chance to practice our skills. Our scout master had sprinted up the incline when we had shouted for an ambulance so that he could stop the well meaning bystanders.

I said, "You thought you were teaching us about emergency preparedness, but really you taught us about justifiable homicide." It was a good day.

I am willing to bet the teachers had much the same ideas behind their drill as my scout master had, and I do not think my scout master was in the wrong at all. I disagree with how the teachers handled it, there are cases where the threat and emotion behind something are just too great for a drill. But I would correct the teachers and help them understand why their mistake was stupid, not toss them in jail for trying to be helpful. I doubt their plan was to traumatize anyone.

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