posted
So, yesterday I went to a bakery I used to work for, years ago. It's been under new management for the past few years...no one there knows me anymore.
It's one of those "Everything From Scratch" bakeries, but the prices are quite reasonable.
I decided to buy a lemon bar. $1.37 with the tax.
I took out my check card.
Cashier: "I'm sorry sir, but we don't accept credit cards unless the purchase is five dollars or more."
Me: "Oh. No problem. I don't have any cash on me. Can I pay with a check?"
Cashier: "A check?"
*hurried, whispered conference*
Cashier: "Yes. You can pay with a check."
*A check is written out. The cashier peers down at it for a long moment, studying it. She takes out a stamp...but instead of stamping out the store name on the back, she stamps down an intricate, ominous looking notice.*
Cashier: "Please sign here, sir?"
Me: "Wait, what does this say?"
Cashier: "Oh, it's just a legal notice. You promise that if you've written us a bad check, then you'll be subject to any legal, processing, or other fees we may need from you."
Me: "...*...huh. Wouldn't that happen anyway, if I wrote a bad check?"
Cashier: "I couldn't say, sir. Please sign?"
*my John Hancock is written*
Cashier: "Do you also have an email address that could be written on the check?"
Me: "I...suppose so..."
*I give her the address I only use for the spamtastic mail I get from subscribing to movie sites."
Cashier: "Thank you. Enjoy your lemon bar!"
...remember when all they asked for was to look at one's ID?
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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I wrote a check for a dollar yesterday because I didn't have any cash or change on me. It made me feel like a college student again. Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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I can remember when banks weren't open on the weekends, there were no ATMs, and credit cards were rare in our community. You had to have a good relationship with your local grocery store if you ran out of needed cash on weekends -- they would sometimes cash a check.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
The end of the check is in sight. Checks will probably continue to be written but they won't go any further than the local checkout counter. The FED with its Check21 initative is pushing hard for the elimination of paper. There are some remarkable technologies out there now that read the check at the checkout counter, take an image of it and transmit that image to the processing center. There the amount is read electronically. (This is now in the 76% to 80% confidence range). The images are sent on the local FED and from there to the originating FED. All this can happen over night. A check you write in D.C. on a CA. bank can clear that bank the next day. So the only float available to you in the future is going to be mail transit time. Hopefully laws will catch up with the technology and banks will give you credit on your deposits as fast as they actually get the credits from the FED. Currently most banks hold funds deposited with checks drawn outside their FED district for a certain length of time based on distance. When they actually get the funds varies.
BTW, there are some quite nifty technologies for detecting check fraud and electronically verifying signatures and these are used on the images also.
Posts: 87 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
I once had to write a check for $0.04 or else the University of Miami would cancel all my classes for the entire semester.
And I would never freely give out my email address like that; granted, pretty much everyone has it as it is, but when asked publically I always play dumb and say "I don't have one." This, of course, gives you rather weird looks in some cases, like when you're buying high end computer software ("you're buying a $700 programming package and don't have an email address?!?").
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
When I worked at the hotel, when we'd get checks we'd run them through the little machine, type in the routing number, void the check and hand it back to the guest as their receipt. That confused the heck out of a lot of people: when they hand me their check and I write "VOID" in really big letters on it.
According to Visa customer service, it is a violation of the vender's terms of service for them to institute a minimum charge.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Also, anything written on the check is fair game. The image can be read now to parse just about any piece of information on the check. These are identified by their format as addresses, email addresses, phone numbers, the payer names, etc. All of that is put in a database and can be searched on just about any criteria. You want to know to whom everybody on a particular street writes checks, you can get that data in a few minutes. You can then target that merchant or customer with specific marketing.
Posts: 87 | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
It is, but it's not unreasonable, when you consider the minimum transaction fees for a swiped card are typically about $0.35 plus 2.9%.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Last year the photographer at our paper was in a teeny-tiny town covering some event. He stopped at the convenience store to get some water because he was in danger of heatstroke. They wouldn't let him use his debit card for less than a $10 purchase. Even when he added more items, he came up 35 cents short.
Apparently they would rather have a man collapse in their store from heatstroke than violate policy.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
That's when you call the 800 number on the back of your card and have the cashier speak to the credit card rep.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: It just blows my mind that you go out without any cash in your pocket.
Their check security was hilarious, however.
I haven't regularly carried cash for years and years. I don't have a penny on me right now.
If I ever do have it, it’s too easy to spend and too hard to track. Lots of stores don’t even offer receipts when I pay with cash. And I rarely make purchases of $1 or less. I love my debit card. It allows me to track everything I spend without letting me spend more than I have (a la credit). Beautimous.
Stores that only accept cash, or make it inconvenient to pay for a purchase, are essentially saying that they don’t want your business. I remember walking into a Taco Bell with my wife once. We only had about a half hour before the movie started, and we were hungry. We got up to the counter to order. Turns out they only accepted cash. No checks, no cards. No ATM in the store. So instead of ordering a couple of substantial meals, we ordered what we could get for the roughly $3 cash we had between us, and left hungry and quite angry. Was it worth it to Taco Bell to lose a larger purchase like that and possibly lose two customers? I know we never went back there again.
And at a previous job I would go out of my way to get my lunch at Carl’s Jr. because they accepted debit cards. Passing by a lot of other lunch possibilities on the way.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:And at a previous job I would go out of my way to get my lunch at Carl’s Jr. because they accepted debit cards. Passing by a lot of other lunch possibilities on the way.
Whats wrong with Carl's Jr? I love their 6 dollar burgers!
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:That's when you call the 800 number on the back of your card and have the cashier speak to the credit card rep.
I worked at staples (very briefly) and was sometimes put on the register.
If we had a minimum amount policy for credit cards, this tactic would not have done a bit of good to me. I would have just told you to speak to my manager. It may have convinced him, but I couldn't care less what your credit card rep says to me, I'm just there to collect my measly paycheck.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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That's true. Customer service has dropped to an all time low.
Most place that I've been to that have a minimum are privately owned stores. Corporate owned stores generally don't have minimums, 'cause they aren't allowed to. Therefor informing the owner/operator that they are violating their terms of service and will recieve a hefty fine if they don't adhere to policy is often effective.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:And at a previous job I would go out of my way to get my lunch at Carl’s Jr. because they accepted debit cards. Passing by a lot of other lunch possibilities on the way.
Whats wrong with Carl's Jr? I love their 6 dollar burgers!
Nothing's wrong with Carl's Jr.! They're easily my favorite fast food chain. I would kill for a Six Dollar Burger. We moved to an area with no Carl's Jr. and I miss them terribly.
We do have Jack in the Box, which is quickly earning a place in my heart.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I hate the minimum requirement, but since it is usually only at privately-owned stores, I'll put up with it. If it's a chain, I'll walk out. The local independent bookstore has a minimum of $5, but I'm okay with that.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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My understanding is the minimum requirement is because the store gets charged for you using a credit card, and anything below a certain total purchase eats in to their profits.
Of course Visa doesn't care - you could charge a penny for all they care - because they get their profit from the storeowner. If the store owner's losing money over a small transaction, that's not Visa's concern.
Posts: 3486 | Registered: Sep 2002
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I'm surprised all you people are so up in arms about the minimum. It's never bothered me.
I always thought that the minimum purchase was because the costs of the debit/credit payment system were too high for small independant stores to absorb like a large store or a chain. That always seemed perfectly fair to me.
posted
Yeah, I would understand if a cc purchase is causing the store to loose money, but as I understand it, the store is charged a percentage of the amount charged. So the store doesn't think they are making enough money on the transaction, not that they aren't making money at all. If a store owner feels that having a cc machine is causing them to get the short end of the stick, they should not use cc machines. They shouldn't apply arbitrary rules on how much I have to spend so that they can make more money.
ETA: Often in business, a company must provide services or product that is undervalued so that they can maintain an adequate client base. In my business we provide quotes and bids at no charge. It takes time and costs money to put together the bids, but that's just what you have to do to get business. I see it as the same with c-stores. If they want to maintain a healthy clientelle, they need to understand that sometimes I want to spend $30 and sometime's I want to spend $2 and each purchase should be equally valuable to them. But, as I've mentioned already, customer service is going way down and that makes me unhappy.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Some places around here simply charge a certain amount (like $35 cents or so) for credit card or debit card purchases below $5 or so.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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It’s a fine line. If making a purchase is bothersome at your store because customers can’t pay how they want, you lose customers. Most everyone has at least two methods of payment handy, but they still leave with a bit of a sour aftertaste if they can’t pay with their preferred method. And if they can’t meet your payment requirements at all and have to leave empty-handed, don’t expect them back unless what you’re selling is something they want and can’t find anywhere else. A Mom & Pop corner grocery store, for instance, would lose a lot of customers if they had inconvenient payment requirements. Their customers would start shopping at the bigger stores where it’s more convenient.
However, if you can’t make a profit off a small sale, it’s not really worth making the sale. But if you’re looking to build customer loyalty and increase each repeat customer’s purchase amount over time, taking the hit on the small purchases early on might be worth it.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:And if they can’t meet your payment requirements at all and have to leave empty-handed, don’t expect them back unless what you’re selling is something they want and can’t find anywhere else.
If I can't pay with a debit card, chances are I will not frequent your establishment. There's a Subway restaurant about 12 blocks from where I work. They don't take debit cards. There's another 24 blocks away, and they do.
I got to the one 24 blocks away about every other week. I never go to the one 12 blocks away.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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vonk: From what I've heard, it's very hard to maintain a small business (like an independant store) in the current business climate. I can perfectly understand that they would be wary of small purchases if that's the case.
For a small shop owner, it's not necessarily about you and your small purchase, it's about the fact that they might need to stay afloat. It would *never* occur to me to not go back to a store because they refused to use my debit card on a $1.00 purchase; I'd simply come back with cash, so I assume that the small shop owners assume that I am like me.
I think when we go to Wal-Mart we don't have anyone to think about when we go there, and so when we go to a small store we forget that there might be only four or five people employed by the store, including the owners- they are not employed by someone else, they are all there is. If they don't make enough money, their business fails however good or different the product is, and they have to go back to doing what they were doing before. I'm sure they'd love to do the best they can, and so they put a minimum on debit/credit purchases, to assure they don't lose too much.
I was talking once with a person from Russia and he was telling me about the difference in customer service betweent North America and Russia. In Russia, he said, you don't expect to be The Customer Is Always Right, you are just a person and on the other side of the counter is another person, and no-one thinks anything of it.
I would obviously like to be greeted when I walk through the door, and I would like to be treated courteously and I think what Puffy Treat went through was a little extreme, but thinking solely about debit/credit purchases: It seems a small thing to ask of the customer to pay for small purchases in cash (most people carry at least $5 in cash), because in many small businesses there isn't that much of a profit margin and there are real people who own the store.
As a result, it's never bothered me and I've never even given it a second thought.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I usually always have cash, maybe $100-$140, but I only spend it when I can't use my debit/credit card. I understand the minimum. I lived in Santa Cruz, CA for a about a year and a half, and most business down there is privately owned, and didn't accept credit cards for small purchases. Even when they did, they would roll their eyes.
You just adjust to it. I never carried cash before living there. I always have an extra $20 in my glove box for emergencies as well. Nothing like forgetting your wallet at home with no gas and no money to buy gas with when your car is running on fumes...
A few questions I have for cash-only/purchase minimums for credit car use establishments:
What's more important, making sure credit card fees don't cut into your profits or pleasing your customers? After all, not all your transactions are small ones. And if customers don't come in because they left irritated at these cash-only/minimum purchase rules, isn't that a customer lost and negative advertising gained? Without customers, you have no income.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I find it incredibly difficult to believe that the small percentage charged on cc purchases is enough to put a store under. If it is, I don't think that store owner is in the right market.
I understand why the minimums are in place, and I understand the thought process that put them in place, but I still don't think they should be in place. I think there are other avenues that store owners can follow to increase their revenue without putting restrictions on what can be purchased with what payment method.
If I were to go set up the smallest rental we have on a one-night-only it would be a waste of money and time. If that were all the business we got, the company would go under. It it my responsibility, as it is the store owners, to make sure that there are other avenues of income to make up for this. Profit and loss. Small business owners should be aware of this phenomenon.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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To clarify my last post, unwillingness to accept the occasional and necessary loss puts a business at a huge disadvantage.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I agree with you, Teshi, about small store owners. Like I said, they’re walking a fine line. I would say one good strategy might be to increase the average purchase amount of each customer in their store through cross selling and upselling, and figure out ways to get more customers walking into the store. I can’t imagine that any purchase less than $1 is worth much to a store, regardless of how they pay, once cost of shelf space, time, lease, utilities, etc. are factored in.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I never, ever carry cash. Any business that only wants cash doesn't get my business. If there is a minimum, there needs to be a compelling reason for me to pay it (I have to greatly want the item, and I need to like the store.).
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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Maybe you live in a community that caters to that attitude, but some places (e.g. Santa Cruz)have a majority of business establishments that refuse anything but cash, making acquiring things without the use of cash very difficult.
I grew up in Sacramento, a fairly populated area. They take cards just about anywhere. It depends on the place.
Posts: 4229 | Registered: Dec 2002
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I always have cash because I always know I might need it- for the subway, for a phone call, for a cup of coffee.
I'm not being facetious when I say that I'm astonished that there are people who don't carry even the tinest amount of cash. Is it a safety thing or a convenience thing, or a bit of both?
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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For the subway, I have a smarttrip card. For a phone call, I have a phone card number memorized that I've had for ten years. For a cup of hot chocolate, everything takes cards. Or I go to the place next door that does.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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For me it's mostly safety and protection against myself. I spend cash in hand far easier than cash in the bank. I also lose things a lot, including cash. There are also countless contribution solicitors on any given corner, and I don't like lying to them, so "I only have a card" is about the best response I can give. I've also been mugged, and by showing the mugger my empty wallet, and talking really fast, I was able to get away without loss. On top of all that, cash is harder to come buy. My checks are direct deposit, so if I want cash, I have to go to the store or bank and get some, usually costing 1.50. I don't often have a need for cash, so I rarely get any. I don't think I'll withdraw a certain amount every paycheck, just so I'll have some cash on me. It seems like a waste of time and energy (on top of the reasons listed above).
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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I agree with everything vonk said. My paycheck is direct deposit, the bus and train take a smartrip card, and it's hard to get cash without paying $2 on both ends. Definitely not worth it unless I'm withdrawing a lot, but I would never need a lot of cash. Even the booths at the festivals take credit cards.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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For me it’s a money-saving thing. Keeping cash is like trying to hold water in my hands. Eventually it’s all gone and I don’t know where it went. I spend it way too freely on little stuff I don’t need.
Plus, a convenience thing. Getting cash isn’t always easy. Automatic payroll deposits mean I never see the majority of my income except as a figure on my bank statement.
And I just don’t need it. I go months without needing it once, and therefore I don’t think about keeping it handy. Maybe if I lived where Nick does, I’d think about it more. Honestly, the only reason we have cash at all, anywhere in the house, is to pay the babysitter and give our kids their allowance (kids don’t take cards).
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Also around here, there are several computer stores that charge the customer specifically what commissions or fees are charged to them for a purchase. Thus if you use cash you might pay price X. If you use cash you pay X*1.03 or whatever depending on what brand the credit card is.
I always thought that was a good compromise and especially nice since you essentially get a 3% discount by paying by cash/debit card, which can add up when buying computers/parts.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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But those visa check card commercials keep telling me I should be embarassed for trying to pay for anything with cheques or cash! Use your card or get mean looks from everyone around you!
Are they lying to me?!
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
For the most part, small businesses which have a minimum charge to use a debit (or, more commonly, have a $0.45 or $0.50 charge when order size is under a certain amount) are businesses where the average order size is so small that those finance charges DO make a significant impact in their income. As has been said before, it's a very fine line to walk, and the businesses need to factor in the business they're losing when deciding whether or not to walk it. It's been especially difficult to determine over the past five years or so, as debit cards (and the accompanying fraud) have become increasingly common. More and more businesses are recognizing that their customers are using debit cards, though, and are becoming more accomodating. The change is taking place with the largest businesses first, obviously: big fast food chains now almost all take debit cards. But it's easy to forget that five years ago, even three years ago, almost none of them did. It just wasn't worth it.
quote:What's more important, making sure credit card fees don't cut into your profits or pleasing your customers? After all, not all your transactions are small ones. And if customers don't come in because they left irritated at these cash-only/minimum purchase rules, isn't that a customer lost and negative advertising gained? Without customers, you have no income.
Well, duh. What the businesses who continue to maintain their cash only / minimum charge policies are saying is that they believe it is worth the money they are saving to lose you as a customer, with whatever resulting negative advertising you produce as a result.
Are you really so vengeful that you will actively badmouth a store for not accepting your plastic? Maybe it's a result of where I live, but that idea is completely foreign to me. Maybe people around the rest of the country don't like supporting small businesses, but in Seattle at least, everyone makes sure to carry cash (or to go GET cash) if they want to purchase something from a place they know only takes cash. There are too many businesses here whose average transactions are $3 to $4 who would take a significant profit hit by offering debit card transactions.
Think about it this way. Let's say you're a gourmet ice cream parlor whose average sale size is $3.25:
Product cost: let's give a conservative estimate of $0.65, including the paper cup and plastic spoon.
Factor in estimated cost of rent, utilities and labor, averaging between peak and off-peak periods, NOT including advertising: $0.85, again a very conservative estimate.
That's $1.50 in cost, leaving $1.75 in potential profit. The transaction fee, based on average CC terminal fees, for a $3.25 transaction is $0.43. That means by accepting debit cards, they're taking almost 25% in losses. Granted, this will mean additional business for them, as there are likely people who will shop there now that they can use debit cards, but at what cost? How many of their regular customers will now use their debit cards instead of using cash? Will the amount of new business offset the losses? At 25% per transaction, my guess is no. Their guess probably is, too, because the store I'm using as an example still does not accept plastic, and they're still constantly busy. None of the above quoted figures is factoring in setup fees and monthly/annual rates for accepting cards, cost of purchasing/leasing terminals, additional phone lines to process those transactions, the cost in time of reconciling the enormous amount of paperwork involved, the hassle and monetary loss arising from fraudulent transactions and chargebacks, etc.
In short, it is not the simple decision many of you seem to think it is.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
It's so inconvenient to go to the bank or ATM for me, I rarely have cash. I am at home most days without a car. So places I may walk to that don't accept debit cards are not going to get my business.
If something is far enough away that I have to make a special trip and drive there anyway, I will stop on the way to get cash if I want to shop there enough (Yaki's, a favorite fast food place, and Foster's Donuts come to mind.)
But for the most part, I do not go out of my way and waste gas to get cash for the very few places that don't accept anything else.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Rereading my initial post to make sure, I never said I was bothered at all by being asked to not use my card. I'm not sure why some are fixating on that. I have no problem with it.
What disturbed me was the mysterious "legal notice" stamped on for bad checks, which seemed to hint at something more dire than the usual consequences for writing a bad check, yet the cashier refused to confirm or deny.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by vonk: I've also been mugged, and by showing the mugger my empty wallet, and talking really fast, I was able to get away without loss.
You keep an empty wallet in case you get mugged? That policy makes as much sense as installing an unpadded steel steering wheel in case you get in a wreck.
It sounds like you got really lucky once, but one of the reasons I keep some cash on me is in case I get mugged. It would be worth $20 to me to keep the man with the gun as calm and happy as possible.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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The store owners' decision is not simple. My decision is simple: I can get by fine without cash, which means I never carry it, which means I don't shop at places that require it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: Are you really so vengeful that you will actively badmouth a store for not accepting your plastic? Maybe it's a result of where I live, but that idea is completely foreign to me.
I think you're exaggerating what's being said. Earlier today I was meeting somebody for lunch. I suggested a place to which my friend responded, "yeah, but they only accept cash" and then we moved on to another possibility. Now that I know that restaurant only takes cash, I'll probably never go there. It's about convenience, not revenge.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote: Are you really so vengeful that you will actively badmouth a store for not accepting your plastic? Maybe it's a result of where I live, but that idea is completely foreign to me.
I think you're exaggerating what's being said. Earlier today I was meeting somebody for lunch. I suggested a place to which my friend responded, "yeah, but they only accept cash" and then we moved on to another possibility. Now that I know that restaurant only takes cash, I'll probably never go there. It's about convenience, not revenge.
The phrase I was responding to was "negative advertising being gained," which carries the distinct flavor of "I will actively spread negative information about your company."
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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There's a burger place near our house that has amazingly fantastic wonderful burgers. They only take cash. The owners could easily double their business, I'm sure, just by taking debit cards, but they don't.
As it is, however, about the only reason I carry cash these days are: 1) So I can have something for the extra collection in church, and, 2) So I can go to that burger joint if I want to.
There's a great lunch place near here too that also only takes cash, but they have an ATM on site, so it's not usually a problem.
Posts: 61 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Funny thing about not carrying cash--I rarely make purchases under $1 anywhere. Instead, I consolidate my purchases into several that I can make at once, and usually spend $5 or more at a time. I'm not sure how common that is, but that's what I do.
We keep most of our money in money market accounts where it can earn better interest but still be liquid. We stick some in our checking account, but only enough for immediate needs. Keeping a lot of cash on hand means less money making interest for us. Even getting $20 from an ATM for a small purchase means I have a bunch of change floating around that's not doing anything for me, and means another trip to the bank to redeposit it. *shrug* That actually keeps me from getting cash more than anything else I can think of.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I love their 6 dollar burgers!
