posted
I think the fact that the outer planets represent the american west is entirely by design. Whedon was drawing a parallel to the whole genre of the "western movie" by giving frontier planets that western feel. The sense of lawlessness also fits right in.
Also, it's not so much the landscape, as the technology level and culture of the settlers. Jayne's town could have been set in Massachusetts, except for the western flavor of the locals.
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I disliked Serenity more than Firefly, because I could not believe that people so under the influence of rage hormones that they'd as soon eat you as look at you, who used to be like us until the rage took over, could cooperate enough to run a starship, and calm down enough to do repairs on them.
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Why not? enraged mobs cooperate all the time...
and I don't think Reavers repair their ships, in fact isn;t a failure to maintain them properly ("running without containmnet") one of their defining features?
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Yeah, I've often wondered about reaver "culture." Why don't they eat each other?
Are they addicted to the Pax? Or are they forever changed once exposed to it?
How do you make more reavers? Birth or "conversion"? And how would a reaver mother behave toward her child?
Enraged mobs only cooperate on a single purpose level. Running a spaceship requires a whole different mindset, even if it is poorly maintained.
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"Running without containment" could have its benefits (better speed or maneuverability, more access points for salvage purposes, etc..). They don't seem particularly concerned about the negative aspects of it, but that's hardly surprising; poster children for safety and well-being they're not.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: First off, I think it's funny that he loved the movie and didn't like the series. Personally I love the series and find the movie to be average/mediocre.
One reason the film might've been dissapointing in comparison to the series (but still good people, still good!)is because it was excellent seeing Whedon develop his story as a serial. When Zoe tells the crew about what witnessing River's remarkable abilities, there's much tension and it's a very exciting moment--all because we had to wait for it. But the film is like a season's worth of story told in two hours. Knowing how richer it would've been if told over a season kind of spoils it...
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Yeah, I've often wondered about reaver "culture." Why don't they eat each other?
Are they addicted to the Pax? Or are they forever changed once exposed to it?
How do you make more reavers? Birth or "conversion"? And how would a reaver mother behave toward her child?
Add that to the list of hundreds of questions that could have been answered, most likely to the ecstatic satisfaction of the viewers, if those Huh choo-shung tza-jiao duh tzang-huo didn't cancel the show.
quote: Posted by the_Somalian: Knowing how richer it would've been if told over a season kind of spoils it...
That almost makes me cry just thinking how much potential, and how much fun, another season would have been.
As for the SF standard of the show, I think you really would be hard pressed to find a show, at any point in history, that really did a better job balancing storylines with characterization (with 9 major characters, nonetheless!) and with gosh-darn pretty pictures.
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: Knowing how richer it would've been if told over a season kind of spoils it...
That almost makes me cry just thinking how much potential, and how much fun, another season would have been. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Don't worry, when I become a rich person, Firefly will live again...unfortunately the actors may be too old, so we'll have to animate the whole thing.
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If one finds it difficult or impossible to separate sex from love, one would naturally find Inara's actions unlikely.
Even prostitutes can fall in love, can be hurt, can get jealous. I thought Inara's reaction was a wonderful glimpse into just how far Mal had gotten under her skin, past the cool and aloof mask she used for everyone else.
I disagree with just about every statement made in that essay, and I think MrSquicky nailed the bulk of it. "Bad" meant "not my moral code" to this person, which is fine for a personal opinion but meaningingless to me. The science was almost nonexistent but the stories, the people, the conflicts were very real.
Kinda like, say, a lot of Theodore Sturgeon stories I really like. I suppose he must not really have been a science fiction author, though (he wrote about sex!).
I might accept, based on the lack of hard science, it could be argued that Firefly isn't the best science fiction shows. But it remains, to me, one of the best television shows ever broadcast.
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: How do you make more reavers? Birth or "conversion"? And how would a reaver mother behave toward her child?
I thought for sure that was covered, and the answer was conversion only. Was it the episode where they found a colony ship that had been attacked by reavers? Or am I just remembering speculation? Clearly, it's been too long since I've watched the episodes.
quote:Was it the episode where they found a colony ship that had been attacked by reavers?
Yes, but if I remember correctly, I don't know how much of it was actually explained.
*SPOILER ALERT*
If I recall correctly, Mal made it clear that the survivor they pulled off the ship was a threat because he was going to become a reaver, but I don't remember them explaining why he would become one. They simply made it seem like he was infected somehow just by being near them or something, or mentally pushed to that point merely by what he saw. It was extremely unclear.
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posted
Thus far the only Sci-Fi series I have seen without sound in space.
I like the Reaction Control Systems in BSG, I like the lack of sound in Firefly, River reminds me of my girlfriend...
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"First, in the TV show, there was just too much sex." How does this define science fiction in any way? You'd have to chuck out Robert Heinlein, Ted Sturgeon, Spider Robinson, John Varley, Phillip Jose Farmer... That's a judgement call.
"Good science fiction isn't like that. Good sci fi (and also good fiction in general) have strong, well developed characters who relate to each other on many other levels than just the sexual level." I didn't see the show's relationships operating on solely a sexual level. Nor do I have problems with good scifi (or good fiction in general) focusing on sexual relationships if the story calls for it. Again, opinion based on his moral beliefs.
"Good sci fi, just like any kind of fiction, doesn't focus on the sex at the expense of other aspects of characters' relationships with one another." Considering one of the characters is a prostitute, how could it not? And I saw a lot more levels of interaction between Mal and Inara than just sex.
"Their job description is basically identical to escorts and prostitutes, except that they personally chose their clientele." Actually it's pretty much identical to the cortigiana onestas of 16th century Europe. Courtesans were powerful, often intelligent and schooled, and had opportunities and freedoms other women did not have.
"The problem I have with this is that the way it's portrayed, it's just not believable. Nara has sex with all kinds of people--of her own choice--and then, when the captain goes and sleeps with one of her friends, she cries her eyes out." As stated, I believed it. It's easy to intellectualize your feelings only to be surprised when your emotions betray you. And yes, prostitutes can fall in love.
Not sure why Inara taking female clients was preachy when presumably the author didn't approve of prostitution anyway. Why is it worse that someone who has sex for money would have same-sex for money?
"The TV show never really shows the emotional ramifications that follow from this kind of a lifestyle." Which lifestyle are we talking about? Prostitution? Promiscuity? Homosexuality? Apparently the depiction of a gay relationship is unbelievable or preachy if we don't stop and demonstrate that the people involved are ruining their lives.
Book's explanation of religion to River did not strike me as preaching a generalized view. He was, IMO, trying to reach River the only way he could. Trying to convince her of the empirical truth of the bible would be useless as she had just proven she could zero in on scriptural inconsistencies immediately. He was trying to reach her the only way he could.
The scientific holes are valid points, some of them, and had the essay stuck with those as reasons why "Firefly" is bad scifi I might have let it go. But the bulk of the essay looks at the attitudes towards sex, homosexuality, and religion and declares them to be lacking, and therefore bad scifi. I declare exactly the opposite. What differs? Our moral codes.
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: It's how I read it.
"First, in the TV show, there was just too much sex." How does this define science fiction in any way? You'd have to chuck out Robert Heinlein, Ted Sturgeon, Spider Robinson, John Varley, Phillip Jose Farmer... That's a judgement call.
He'd have to chuck out OSC too...all that sex in the Homecoming series, after all. Shocking!
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Please note, I have no problems with the person thinking it's bad fiction. What I don't understand is how the elements of "Firefly" -- aside from the shoddy science -- makes it bad science fiction, which is the whole point of the essay.
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quote:"Good sci fi, just like any kind of fiction, doesn't focus on the sex at the expense of other aspects of characters' relationships with one another." Considering one of the characters is a prostitute, how could it not? And I saw a lot more levels of interaction between Mal and Inara than just sex.
"Their job description is basically identical to escorts and prostitutes, except that they personally chose their clientele." Actually it's pretty much identical to the cortigiana onestas of 16th century Europe. Courtesans were powerful, often intelligent and schooled, and had opportunities and freedoms other women did not have.
"The problem I have with this is that the way it's portrayed, it's just not believable. Nara has sex with all kinds of people--of her own choice--and then, when the captain goes and sleeps with one of her friends, she cries her eyes out." As stated, I believed it. It's easy to intellectualize your feelings only to be surprised when your emotions betray you. And yes, prostitutes can fall in love.
Not sure why Inara taking female clients was preachy when presumably the author didn't approve of prostitution anyway. Why is it worse that someone who has sex for money would have same-sex for money?
"The TV show never really shows the emotional ramifications that follow from this kind of a lifestyle." Which lifestyle are we talking about? Prostitution? Promiscuity? Homosexuality? Apparently the depiction of a gay relationship is unbelievable or preachy if we don't stop and demonstrate that the people involved are ruining their lives.
quote:Was it the episode where they found a colony ship that had been attacked by reavers?
Yes, but if I remember correctly, I don't know how much of it was actually explained.
*SPOILER ALERT*
If I recall correctly, Mal made it clear that the survivor they pulled off the ship was a threat because he was going to become a reaver, but I don't remember them explaining why he would become one. They simply made it seem like he was infected somehow just by being near them or something, or mentally pushed to that point merely by what he saw. It was extremely unclear.
I was under the impression they killed everyone except the one guy and they hideously tortured him to the brink of insanity so that he became just like them.
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quote:I was under the impression they killed everyone except the one guy and they hideously tortured him to the brink of insanity so that he became just like them.
Except that doesn't make sense if the way you become a Reaver is by having a bad reaction to that drug.
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quote:I was under the impression they killed everyone except the one guy and they hideously tortured him to the brink of insanity so that he became just like them.
Except that doesn't make sense if the way you become a Reaver is by having a bad reaction to that drug.
Thats only how the original Reavers were formed.
Why can there only be one way for them to expand their numbers?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Iain: Thus far the only Sci-Fi series I have seen without sound in space.
I like the Reaction Control Systems in BSG, I like the lack of sound in Firefly, River reminds me of my girlfriend...
Doesn't BSG mostly have no sound in space?
I was VASTLY disappointed when in Serenity they added sound for the space battle. I don't mind sound in space. We know it isn't real, but it's fun. But if you aren't going to do sound, you can't just add it at the last minute to make your big space battle cooler, I think it cheapens it, not when you've made it a point to never have it before, and for that matter, EARLIER in the movie they made a point of making no sound as well.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Iain: Thus far the only Sci-Fi series I have seen without sound in space.
I like the Reaction Control Systems in BSG, I like the lack of sound in Firefly, River reminds me of my girlfriend...
Doesn't BSG mostly have no sound in space?
I was VASTLY disappointed when in Serenity they added sound for the space battle. I don't mind sound in space. We know it isn't real, but it's fun. But if you aren't going to do sound, you can't just add it at the last minute to make your big space battle cooler, I think it cheapens it, not when you've made it a point to never have it before, and for that matter, EARLIER in the movie they made a point of making no sound as well.
They got away with sound because they were in a cloud of particles that (according to the creator) allowed for sound to propagate.
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posted
I'm still rattled that Firefly was supposed to happen all in one star system. Huh? How many frequin' planets are in that system, and how do they all have earthlike atmospheres?
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At some point in the next 500 years, they found a super system that had dozens of planets and moons that were terraformed over time.
Something to consider, by the way, sure they don't discuss FTL travel because they move around a single star system (which would STILL take a lot of time), but how the hell did they get from Earth to the new system they are currently in without a form of FTL? I guess it doesn't REALLY matter, but I'm curious.
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quote:Was it the episode where they found a colony ship that had been attacked by reavers? Or am I just remembering speculation? Clearly, it's been too long since I've watched the episodes.
I think the concept of the Reaver genesis and the Miranda discovery (the planet had to remain silent, because information that came from Miranda could be used against the alliance) is genius, but it's pretty clear to me that this is a concept that wasn't fully developed at the time this episode was shot. Not merely because the survivor began acting like a reaver without having been exposed to the pax, but because Mal shouldn't have been able to predict that he would act like a reaver based on his lack of information about how reavers were created in the first place.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Why would being tortured create the same effect as a bad drug reaction?
Why not? We ARE talking about science fiction here.
I'm sure I can get somebody angry just by being annoying, and I am pretty sure there are ways to stimulate the aggressive side of the brain into making somebody angry. Pills, electrodes, Rage Against the Machine.
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I let the battle sound go because they were just inside the planet's outer atmosphere.
In which case lets hope they never fire their space cannons on land, as the sound would probably shatter windows for miles and miles.
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I'm not sure why the energy weapons really had any sound at all. If we're going to buy the whole outer atmosphere thing then fine, the projectile canons and such would make boomy sounds.
But lasers are light, and I can't remember the last time I heard a sound come out of my flashlight when I turned it on. Don't get me wrong, Firefly still gets the same pass for using sound where it shouldn't be that Star Wars gets for Lightsabers and blasters, and that Star Trek gets for phasers, but let's not whitewash it to make it seem better than it is, because it IS good, but whitewashing the minor flaws I think just ruins it.
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Why would being tortured create the same effect as a bad drug reaction?
Why not? We ARE talking about science fiction here.
Just because something's science fiction doesn't mean that any old thing can happen. The psyche of the average person in the Firefly universe is the same as the psyche of people in the real world. If torture of that sort wouldn't turn people into reavers in real life (and I think that it wouldn't), then it doesn't work in the context of Bushwhacked either.
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posted
A high energy laser would make a noise from the transformer that powers it, but it shouldn't be coupled with a doppler shift that is so typical in sci-fi as the laser beam "zips by."
The fact is that energy weapons have a much bigger flaw. They travel at the speed of light, which means they shouldn't be visible at all until they reach the target. You can't "see the beam coming" and then dodge it, because you can't see the beam at all until it reaches you.
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posted
He didn't become a Reaver. He tried to emulate them.
This is a real world reaction that some victims of torture and brutalization go through. Stockholm syndrome is a specialized case of this. It has been noted in other individual instances as well as in group setings, such as when Nazi concentration camp inmates went so far as to fabricate faux-SS uniforms for themselves and adopt the mannerisms of their guards.
It's a power thing. Human beings often tend to identify with, idolize, and often emulate those they view as powerful. This reaction is often intesified in those who feel particularly powerless. Mixed in sometimes is the just world fallacy, where they assume that the strong are that way beause they are right. Torture victims can feel this impulse strongly and are looking for some sort of esacpe from the mental realities of their situation.
While an extreme case, the reaction of the guy in Bushwhacked is consistent with what I know about the behavior of some real life torture victims.
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quote:Nazi concentration camp inmates went so far as to fabricate faux-SS uniforms for themselves and adopt the mannerisms of their guards.
Do you have any links to articles that discuss this, Squick? I'd like to read about it in more detail.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I'll see what I can find. I'm not sure if I came across it in a psych text, Viktor Frankl, or Erich Fromm, but I can probably pull up a reference. edit: But, it'll have to be over the weekend.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I'm 99% sure that was in Viktor Frankl's work, probably Man's Search For Meaning. It shattered me when I read it as a child.
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Edited to add: I'd read Anne Frank's diary and moved on to firsthand accounts of concentration camps: Frankl, Elie Wiesel, and Corrie ten Boom (a Dutch Christian who hid Jews during WWII and was herself imprisoned). The other one it might be from is Wiesel's Night, but I think I remember the relating of the incident in terms of Frankl's theories about humanity. It's been awhile, though, so if it isn't in Man's Search for Meaning, you might want to check Night.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: I'm 99% sure that was in Viktor Frankl's work, probably Man's Search For Meaning. It shattered me when I read it as a child.
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Edited to add: I'd read Anne Frank's diary and moved on to firsthand accounts of concentration camps: Frankl, Elie Wiesel, and Corrie ten Boom (a Dutch Christian who hid Jews during WWII and was herself imprisoned). The other one it might be are from Wiesel's Night, but I think I remember the relatign of the incident in terms of Frankl's theories about humanity. It's been awhile, though, so if it isn't in Man's Search for Meaning, you might want to check Night.
It shattered me a year ago when I read it for the first time. I think what we are talking about is indeed in the book.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I'm sure I can get somebody angry just by being annoying, and I am pretty sure there are ways to stimulate the aggressive side of the brain into making somebody angry. Pills, electrodes, Rage Against the Machine.
You might make me angry and agressive, but it's going to take a hell of a lot more for me to start killing people with sharp objects and eating their flesh.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I'm sure I can get somebody angry just by being annoying, and I am pretty sure there are ways to stimulate the aggressive side of the brain into making somebody angry. Pills, electrodes, Rage Against the Machine.
You might make me angry and agressive, but it's going to take a hell of a lot more for me to start killing people with sharp objects and eating their flesh.
OK I'll annoy you for a VERY long time. I might even go beyond annoying you and actively anger you.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: It shattered me a year ago when I read it for the first time. I think what we are talking about is indeed in the book.
I've been meaning to reread it again, anyway.
Noemon, it's a race. To the death? No! To the pain.
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Edited to add: As I hit "submit," I realized that was extraordinarily tacky and insensitive. Gah! I'm sorry.
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