Does this pitbull need to be put down? I mean, dogs hump legs all the time. It doesn't seem like this was an aggressive act on the pitbull's part.
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posted
Based on the report, it sounds like some of the "helpful" neighbors may have made the injuries worse through their actions. Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Also in the house. I don't think most people expect the family pet to attack a child, especially in that way.
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Normally a dog will be giving of dominance indicators long before it goes this far. If they had been observing the dog around the child they should have been able to pick up on this, if they knew what they were looking for. But they were probably clueless and not reading the signals properly to begin with.
quote:Normally a dog will be giving of dominance indicators long before it goes this far.
I dunno. My brother-in-law's family lives across the street and they've got a "puppy" that tried to mount of the kids which hadn't really acted "dominant" in any readily discernible way previously. He just ran around, jumping on laps and licking faces like most untrained dogs of that age.
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posted
The dog was obviously not neutered, or at least, not neutered at the correct time. I would be hesitant having any such dog unsupervised with a child. A pit bull is simply beyond the pale.
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posted
Maybe I am missing something but how in the heck does a dog get passed not only any pants the kid might be wearing but the diaper a two year old SHOULD be wearing.
Actually you know what, I don't think I want to know.
edit: As for pitbulls being inherently too vicious or dangerous to own. If you watch a few episodes of The Dog Whisperer he really drives home the point that a dog is the result of how it is treated on a day to day basis. That dog's live in the now and can become whatever you need them to be if you just understand their psychology behind their actions.
He almost ALWAYS brings a pitbull that he rehabilitated when he needs a dog that is calm-submissive that can act as a foil for an aggressive dog.
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posted
BlackBlade, there was obviously a lack of supervision. Many kids that age will shed pants and diapers whenever possible, voluntarily. And he could have been potty trained, you never know.
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posted
Pitbulls are not naturally agressive dogs unless they are bred and trained to be agressive. My understanding is that they make very good family dogs if they are properly trained and cared for. If this family didn't have the dog neutered (otherwise they wouldn't hump) they were either too negligent to take the dog in to have it fixed (which means they'd likely leave the dog in the same room as the kid, unsupervised) or they were trying to breed the dog which typically means the dog is bred for dogfighting. The dog is probably not a pure-bred either, as most Pit Bulls in this country are bred by people who care little about breed standards.
This same thing could easily have happened with a Golden Retriever in similar circumstances.
The only reason I would never own a pitbull has nothing to do with the dog itself and everything to do with the misconceptions the public at large has with the breed. I'd rather have a dog that doesn't have a poor reputation as agressive and dangerous, just to avoid the inevitable conflict with neighbors.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: BlackBlade, there was obviously a lack of supervision. Many kids that age will shed pants and diapers whenever possible, voluntarily. And he could have been potty trained, you never know.
I have not seen many two year olds actually try to dispose of a diaper, much less easily shed one. Pants yes.
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posted
That's just it - it sounds like having a dog like that is a part-time job all on its own. Why on earth take on a part-time job babysitting a loaded gun? When there's a baby?
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posted
For a dog to become a "loaded gun." There really has to be weeks and months of neglect and failure to discourage certain minor negative behaviors.
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posted
Pits aren't that bad, really. They're extremely strong, but not particularly aggressive, IME. However, I think a smaller, less-muscular breed is probably more ideal for a family with small children.
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posted
All dogs are potentially loaded guns. All dogs should be cared for carefully. They don't have all the teeth because it looks nice.
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quote:I have not seen many two year olds actually try to dispose of a diaper, much less easily shed one. Pants yes.
Then you've never met my kids or my nephews. Of the nine kids in that group, three of them had to have their diapers fastened with a ring of masking tape around the waist and the tape ends behind them where they couldn't reach them or else off they came...
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posted
Every place I've looked about pit bulls says never leave them alone with children, pay attention, train them, watch for signs, play the dog whisperer...if that's what it takes to keep the dog from being dangerous, then it is naturally a loaded gun and it's a constant job to keep the safety on.
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quote:I have not seen many two year olds actually try to dispose of a diaper, much less easily shed one. Pants yes.
Then you've never met my kids or my nephews. Of the nine kids in that group, three of them had to have their diapers fastened with a ring of masking tape around the waist and the tape ends behind them where they couldn't reach them or else off they came...
That's pretty cool, I gotta admit. I've just been exposed to the wrong babies I suppose.
But regardless of how I feel about dogs and diapers leaving a child at home completely unsupervised is unacceptable to me.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: For a dog to become a "loaded gun." There really has to be weeks and months of neglect and failure to discourage certain minor negative behaviors.
Not necessarily. Our dog has, a couple times, bitten small children. Both times it occured when a smaller child she was unfamiliar with somehow "startled" her. She yelped as if she had been stepped on (she wasn't) and then gave them a medium-hard bite - enough to break the skin, but not enough to cause any real damage.
The only reason it happened twice is because we assumed the first time it was a fluke. She is as submissive a dog as I have ever known and never barks or growls at anyone. We have been unable to stimulate this behavior on purpose so we've been unable to figure out what the exact trigger is or attempt to train it out of her. As a result we now have to lock her up in a kennel whenever small kids are going to be in the yard.
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posted
A situation where the mother cannot even step into the other room (which is what it sounds what happened) without putting the kid in danger sounds EXHAUSTING. It simply isn't possible for a human to be Argus, and it isn't safe unless someone is, then it's a bad situation.
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posted
Submissive dogs tend to fear bite (which is usually what happens with small children) more than dominate ones.
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quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: Submissive dogs tend to fear bite (which is usually what happens with small children) more than dominate ones.
If that's what's happening, is there a way to fix that?
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: For a dog to become a "loaded gun." There really has to be weeks and months of neglect and failure to discourage certain minor negative behaviors.
Not necessarily. Our dog has, a couple times, bitten small children. Both times it occured when a smaller child she was unfamiliar with somehow "startled" her. She yelped as if she had been stepped on (she wasn't) and then gave them a medium-hard bite - enough to break the skin, but not enough to cause any real damage.
The only reason it happened twice is because we assumed the first time it was a fluke. She is as submissive a dog as I have ever known and never barks or growls at anyone. We have been unable to stimulate this behavior on purpose so we've been unable to figure out what the exact trigger is or attempt to train it out of her. As a result we now have to lock her up in a kennel whenever small kids are going to be in the yard.
OK look stop using your Houdini in embryonic form children and your time bomb dog as a means to make me sound foolish.
Though to be honest, growling and barking are both VERY high tiers when it comes to aggressive behavior. Dogs have MANY other tell tale signs of impending aggression. Eyes, facial expression, and tails are all very good places to start.
Was your dog previously owned by somebody else before you got him/her?
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quote:Eyes, facial expression, and tails are all very good places to start.
Good grief, the parents would have to pay more attention to the dogs than to the children. In addition, it sounds like it takes considerable experience in order to recognize what they need to look for. This is major, major work.
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quote:Though to be honest, growling and barking are both VERY high tiers when it comes to aggressive behavior.
I can't say what she was doing just previous to the bites, but I've never seen her display any aggressive signals.
quote:Was your dog previously owned by somebody else before you got him/her?
Yep, my other brother-in-law. It had pretty much the same environment as it does now - a couple small kids, good size yard, and chickens running around (she doesn't hurt the chickens, but she does like to herd them)
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quote:Eyes, facial expression, and tails are all very good places to start.
Good grief, the parents would have to pay more attention to the dogs than to the children. In addition, it sounds like it takes considerable experience in order to recognize what they need to look for. This is major, major work.
It's a perceived risk/benefit thing like every other elective activity in life. Dog bites are the second-highest cause of emergency room visits related to childhood activities, so there is real risk there. Number one is baseball/softball and number three is playing at a playground.
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posted
First of all neutered dogs still hump each other. Females hump males. Neutering can lessen the problem but it isn't some sort of "fix all" for the behavior problem, like people make it out to be. Jumping in laps and licking faces are can be both dominant and submissive behaviors depending on the context.
Matt P,
Your dog is undersocialized. It is absolutely critical that you to put her in as many disturbing, startling and upsetting situations (for her) as possible and watch her like a hawk. You can't attempt to "talk" to soothe her, in those situations, because any positive tone will actually be rewarding her nervousness. You can do a calm touch on her neck, but not actually "petting" because that will also be a reward. She also needs a sudden firm correction on the leash should she manifest any sort of outward irritation when being startled, because snapping at humans is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
I would suggest finding a good dog trainer in the area. As Ceasar Milan says, it's all about you being a pack leader, more than it is training. But training creates situations where you have a chance to show your dog that you are the pack leader. If she was trusting you to deal with situations as a pack leader she wouldn't be snapping when shes gets startled. Since she doesn't have strong leadership from you, and she's afraid, she's dealing with it the only way she knows how.
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: Every place I've looked about pit bulls says never leave them alone with children, pay attention, train them, watch for signs, play the dog whisperer...if that's what it takes to keep the dog from being dangerous, then it is naturally a loaded gun and it's a constant job to keep the safety on.
It could easily be argued that those sites exist not because the dogs are actually agressive, but because there are a lot of people who fear that they are and look for information on how to pacify a dog they fear. Again, this could happen with any dog (and does). The big difference is that Pit Bulls are preferred by people who want aggressive dogs, so they treat them that way. The dog isn't actually very agressive, but it looks big and scary.
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quote:Eyes, facial expression, and tails are all very good places to start.
Good grief, the parents would have to pay more attention to the dogs than to the children. In addition, it sounds like it takes considerable experience in order to recognize what they need to look for. This is major, major work.
You really don't/it really isn't. It's not like a well trained dog can turn killer in a matter of minutes or even hours. Dogs form habits based on what behaviors have been reinforced and which ones have been discouraged. 90%* of dog owners simply feed, walk, and caress their pet. They might get upset if they poop on the carpet, or if they bite somebody. But many behaviors such as growling, barking, hyperactivity, hostile behavior towards other dogs/people, and running wild go completely unchecked. Most people ignore their dogs behavior so long as they do not pose a threat to the members of the household. Heck sometimes even THAT slides if say the dog growls when you try to take their food away.
Most people don't realize that you can't punish a dog by whacking it, yelling at it, or that saying its name when attempting to apply dicipline actually reinforces bad behavior.
Dog's are not a riddle wrapped in an enigma, but I think far too little time is spent attempting to understand dogs at an acceptable level. Heck I'll admit that until I started watching the show I was just as ignorant as the incredulous people Ceasar helps on The Dog Whisperer.
His theme of the show is, "Helping dogs, Training people."
edit: *Completely made up statistic that just feels right.
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It's a state of being as much as anything else. Dogs are fantastic barometers of the emotional state of their owners. The awareness that allows people to read a dog's emotional state, is not something obscure and isoteric. Rather it is something that people in our modern era do not develop because our way of living does not require the same situational awareness of nature for survival that our ancestors had to develop.
So it is latently there in everyone but it's rusty in modern people.
Ceeasar Milan says again and again that the happiest most well adjusted dogs you will see are those belonging to homeless people. Why? Because homeless people (mentally ill or not) tend to live more conciously aware of the present than the rest of us. They also walk. They may not know where they are going, but since one is homeless it is about the journey, not the destination.
If we are not aware and "in the moment" of the journey of our lives, the dogs know. And while they can provide immense comfort, they are still animals with needs of their own, and if the humans are unable to meet the pack needs, they will attempt to fill that void themselves, even when they know it isn't their proper place. If a dog knows it's place in the pack, it is a happy mentally stable dog. When it doesn't, it often is reflecting a lack in the owner's character.
posted
From everything I have heard, you have to train, pay attention, never leave alone, clean, care for, pet, walk, kennel when gone...that is a lot of work. It may be fitted into a family's routine after a while and it maybe be considered worth it, but that doesn't take away from it still being a lot of work.
quote:But many behaviors such as growling, barking, hyperactivity, hostile behavior towards other dogs/people, and running wild go completely unchecked.
Right - the family should pay more attention. Which takes time and effort and often money. That's work. I don't blame the people who don't have time for it. I only wish it wasn't portrayed as being easier than it is. ------------ If everyone could be a dog owner like Banna is, then I doubt there would be problems.
I've noticed, though, that the default seems to be to own a pet, rather than the exception. All that work and attention that's needed...I think those that do what it takes are the exception.
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posted
I love the Dog Whisperer as well. The one thing however that Ceasar is a virtuoso at, which "modern people" (which Ceasar isn't... he was raised on a farm in Mexico with semi-feral dog packs around) don't suceed as well at, is not just the reading of the dog, but the timing of what he does, because we don't have that "awareness" part of ourselves sensitized as well as he does.
Being the pack leader mentally is a huge step in the right direction. Watching the show helps that immensely. But without an outside observer (and except for Ceasar they generally call them "dog trainers" rather than "canine lifestyle coaches") you won't necessararily see it in your own dog, or be able to get the correction timing right like Ceasar does naturally.
(I can actually come pretty close in some situations but I know I'm an exception not the rule and I'm darn good at reading dogs even if I don't do it professionally. I have been asked to be an assistant trainer for several classes but haven't had the time to do so)
I've also trained dogs to a variety of AKC competitive obedience levels, and have to be a pack leader in my own home because if you have 5+ dogs in the house and you *aren't* the pack leader you have all out chaos.
posted
Humping is certainly a dominance behavior that all dogs seem to do. An actual erection is a different thing entirely and leads to my earlier statement.
Testosterone [levels] adds a significant factor to a dog's behavior. Just no way around it.
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quote:Right - the family should pay more attention. Which takes time and effort and often money. That's work. I don't blame the people who don't have time for it. I only wish it wasn't portrayed as being easier than it is.
Right initially its quite a bit of work to encourage the correct behaviors and discourage the bad ones. But those habits start to form and your dog starts acting much better. You really should see the show. He takes dogs that look downright dangerous and a menace to society and starts getting tangible results within hours.
BannaOj is exactly right however about how if a human being does not assume the role of "pack leader" the dog sometimes willingly sometimes hesitantly assumes the role and tries its best to lead. When your dog is trying to "lead" your family, problems happen.
I have a cat right now, and believe me I wish cat's had the same memory capacity that dogs do. She gets what I want her to do down for about a week and then relapses and needs correction again.
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posted
JH says: "I've noticed, though, that the default seems to be to own a pet, rather than the exception. All that work and attention that's needed...I think those that do what it takes are the exception."
I disagree with this. Yes, some people are negligent. And some people are not aware of the things that need to be done. But a WHOLE LOT of people who have pets DO know and they DO do it and they have a very rewarding relationship with an animal, and the animal does as well. Most people try pretty hard to do the right things in their lives.
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posted
a neutered dog can achieve an erection... geldings can too
I have been around numerous neutered and uneutered dogs. While neutering can make a dog "milder" (for lack of a better word) it will *never* change an unstable dog to a stable dog.
If anything, taking the edge off of a male dog by neutering it, ends up being a crutch in many cases. Since the behavior has been made slightly milder, then it's ok to ignore the bad behavior, instead of deal with it... and the dog is still unstable and not actually any better off than it was before.
posted
Sharpie, you've gotten me thinking. I agree that most people try to do the right things when it comes to their pets.
I think however that anthropomorphizing the animal is on the upswing in modern america, and as a result there are more and more unstable dogs, even when the owners think they are doing the right thing for them.
I'd probably put the truly committed at about 30%, the bad at about 30% and the passive status quo at 40%. That gives 70% decent and 30% lousy as far as dog owners go. The middle 40% can swing either way, but may just stay in the middle as long as there aren't any traumatic events to upset the equilibrium.
posted
Also in the interest of full disclosure, for those newer to the forum, I breed, show and train Cardigan Welsh Corgis. My male dog is currently the #2 ranked Cardigan Corgi in the breed in the U.S. I don't show him myself, a handler does, for two reasons.
1) I can't take the time off my real job to constantly travel to 3-day show weekends.
2) Even though I'm good at ordinary day-to-day situational pack leadership and dog training for obedience, when you show a dog at his level in the breed ring, it is like dressage in horses. It is very, very difficult and nuanced and you have to make it look effortless and I'm still very much a beginner in that arena.
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quote:Right initially its quite a bit of work to encourage the correct behaviors and discourage the bad ones. But those habits start to form and your dog starts acting much better.
There's just no getting around that it's a great deal of work. Saying that it becomes habit doesn't make it not work - that minimizes how much effort it takes. Running three miles every day can become a habit as well, but that doesn't mean it's effortless.
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posted
he's #2, congrats! I think last update I heard Jake was #3.
My dog experience isn't as much as AJ's but I have spent quite a bit of time in the past six years working with Indiana Sheltie Rescue. In that we were trying to asses and find suitable homes for owner surrendered and stray Shetland Sheepdogs. This has included many dogs that were physically abused, neglected, or not socialized properly. My own sheltie who is 8 now was not socialized well when we got him at 22 months, though he did like to be around children, he was uncomfortable with men, shyed when touched, and weighed seven pounds less than his ultimate weight.
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Sharpie, you've gotten me thinking. I agree that most people try to do the right things when it comes to their pets.
I think however that anthropomorphizing the animal is on the upswing in modern america, and as a result there are more and more unstable dogs, even when the owners think they are doing the right thing for them.
I'd probably put the truly committed at about 30%, the bad at about 30% and the passive status quo at 40%. That gives 70% decent and 30% lousy as far as dog owners go. The middle 40% can swing either way, but may just stay in the middle as long as there aren't any traumatic events to upset the equilibrium.
AJ
I'm probably slightly more optimistic than you are in this (I'm a real Pollyanna ). I would put the "bad" probably at more like 20 to 25. I definitely don't consider the "good" as an exception, however.
In the interest of full disclosure myself, I have one and a half dogs, both basenjis. Basenjis are on the tougher end of the canine spectrum. They are a primitive, intelligent dog. If a lab is Susie Derkins, a basenji is Calvin. A basenji is smart in the way a 14-year-old hacker/dropout is smart . I have been "trained" to be a basenji owner for several years by the breeder of these two basenjis, one of which is a somewhat messed up return/rescue due to several ignorant/idiotic owners before me. I have put in my time, to say the least.
It DOES take work. It does take commitment. It is NOT effortless. I don't argue any of that. I am the pack leader in this house -- also known as queen and ruler of the universe and holder of the treats.
(I agree about the anthropomorphizing thing, too. We shouldn't do that to dogs. They hate that. And I do agree that there are unstable dogs and that people need to know that dogs are NOT people and what their reactions mean and don't mean.)
But having said all that, I think education is truly the key here. It's not a doomed system by any means.
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posted
My only comment on this is that I am SO sick and disgusted by the way people (and I'm not talking about everyone, just a select few) bash pit bulls on this forum (and everywhere else.) You people are some of the most intelligent folks I know of, but you show your ignorance with comments like "And, considering it's a pitbull, amazing it didn't simply eat the child." It makes my blood boil. I have 2 pit bulls who are the finest pets I could possibly have. They wouldn't hurt a fly, because that's how they were raised. Any dog is a potential threat to a child, regardless of the breed. The fact that it was a pit bull is completely, totally, 100% irrelevant. People who consider pit bulls dangerous and vicious are no better in my opinion than people who are downright racist. Unless you have personally been attacked by a pit bull and have some vendetta against them, please don't stereotype and further fuel the hatred against this very misunderstood breed. I personally dislike chihuahuas, miniature pinschers, and schnauzers, because I have been attacked and bitten by them on too many occasions to count. Does that mean I think all of them are vicious and evil? Not at all. I just won't ever own one. If you're scared of pit bulls, don't get one. And don't make the situation any more difficult for those of us who are responsible pit bull owners.
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posted
I had a friend who used to work for a veterinarian.
She said the large dogs were usually no problem. She complained that the small dogs were more likely to bite.
I think, however, that it goes without saying that, when a big, strong dog bites, it's more likely to do significant damage.
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posted
Steven, I absolutely agree. It makes sense that the larger the dog, the more serious the bite. And, unfortunately, a lot of very irresponsible people abuse the the pit bull's sheer strength and power, which leads to dogs that do a great deal of damage when they do actually attack. Statistically, pit bulls are very, very low on the list of breeds responsible for dog bites. Among the worst biters? Cocker spaniels, chihuahuas, and golden retrievers. You just don't hear about these attacks on the news because people don't care - they hear "Pit bull attacks!" and are immediately drawn to the story. No one wants to hear about a labrador who mauled a little girl to death because labradors are the #1 breed in America. I have worked at several veterinary clinics over the past few years, one of which saw more pit bulls than any other breed of dog. In my year and a half there, I think I encountered maybe two seriously aggressive pit bulls. Even the ones that had obviously been neglected or fought were the sweetest, most tolerant dogs I have ever met. They could be bleeding to death from a serious injury, or in horrible pain, and their tails would still be wagging. And no matter what you did to them, they never tried to bite. Can't quite say the same about the hundreds of other dogs (mostly very popular breeds such as chihuahuas and poodles) who would show their teeth and lunge at you as soon as you walked in the room.
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). I would put the "bad" probably at more like 20 to 25. I definitely don't consider the "good" as an exception, however.
