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Tarrsk, I find what you said about that book interesting. I think that's sort of what I'm seeing, some physiological thing that happens to many/most people when they get older that keeps them from being able to like new music, and keeps them liking the music they used to like forever. My brain never did that. I'm a mutant.
I think many hatrackers are probably atypical when it comes to music, as they are in many other regards.
I wonder if there's a difference between musicians and regular folk in this respect? It seems like there's a sort of "musician's brain" musically speaking that responds differently to music than regular people's brains do. Maybe that's all it is. My dad continued to have the capacity to appreciate new music until he was in his late 60s. He liked TMBG. I think that was the last band I was able to get him into. I remember he totally didn't get Beck. (But part of that is that he didn't get stuff that was mostly about rhythm, so he didn't like poetry and he never got hip hop.)
Oh, that's another thing I'm curious about. Do you get into poetry? Does that correlate with the type of music you like? (rhythmic/melodic/harmonic)
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I don't particularly buy this everyone likes just the music from their own generation argument. My preferences are if it is good music from any era I like it. Now, there are KINDS of music I can't stand (and that includes screaming hard rock, Opera, fluff pop, Rap and R & B), but that doesn't have anything to do with when they were recorded or played.
On the other hand, if you were not to know my music preferences then you would guess it was a generational thing. That is because what is popular now is everything that I hate in music styles. So, from what is enjoyed by the current generation has me believe that music really has died. I know there is underground music, as I am told, but that doesn't make up for the absolutely terrible stuff heard on the radio or accepted by the open masses today. If you want to call it a case of generational disfavor that is fine. I call it the perpetuation of bad taste.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I would be willing to accept that you may set in your taste by your mid 20's, however that doesn't mean you have to be stuck listening to the same songs over and over for the rest of your life. I am always looking for new music. It may be in the same style, but I always need new music. I've got 4,200 songs on my IPOD and I am still looking for new stuff.
In high school I did the whole classic rock thing, now I don't want to hear any of the 50 songs they play on the radio. From time to time I like to go back and listen to a few of the albums so I can enjoy some of the lesser known songs, but it won't stay on my play list for long.
When I got my new car I thought the satellite radio was really cool, especially the 90's alt rock station. I got to hear some cool songs from the 90's I hadn't heard in a few years. It reminded me of college, but then realized they only played 50 songs also. I quickly lost interest.
There are a few bands I find I have consistently listen to over the years, U2, Big Head Todd, Pearl Jam but if they don't come out with anything new that is good I find they don't get played very often.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: Which version of AATW? It's one of the more covered songs that I can think of in modern music history. DMB's version isn't bad, and though I bet few would agree
I actually LOVE DMB's verion. Particularly one 12 minute version I have. If it's not that 12 minute version, I'll take Hendrix's over Dylan's any day. Even though I dig Dylan way more than Hendrix in general.
And I think 'Yesterday' is the most covered song in history.
And I don't know why I just thought of it, but has anyone heard the bluegrass version of Gin and Juice. Arguably one of the best covers ever made. Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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It seems like a lot of y'all are misunderstanding what I was saying (or maybe I wasn't explaining it well). Levitin isn't saying that people only ever listen to music from their generation, or that people will only listen to the same actual pieces of music after a certain age. He's saying (and the evidence supports him) that human brains, at any given point in time, have a certain amount of the ability to absorb new musical concepts and structures. This ability, in the average human being, peaks in young adulthood, and drops dramatically after adulthood is reached. Why does a backbeat sound natural to folks raised on rock 'n roll or hip hop, but not to someone who listened exclusively to classical music growing up? Why do I like the sound of a power chord (a chord consisting only of the root and the 5th), while my parents find the sound oddly abrasive? All of these things have their basis in your brain, and in the types of music you were exposed to/ sought out in your youth.
This does not preclude you from learning to enjoy other types of music after your 20s. It just means that it'll take a bit, or sometimes a lot, more effort to get into the headspace you need to appreciate it. For example, I was able to get my mother, who primarily likes classical and gospel music, to appreciate Radiohead's "Kid A," an experimental record that mixes elements of electronica with rock instrumentation and subversion of traditional musical theory. But I had to explain what it was that I found so naturally stirring about the dissonant strings in "How To Disappear Completely" or the heavy syncopated beats in "Idioteque," because liking those musical motifs isn't "natural" for her brain. Once she was able to intellectualize "Kid A" and work it through in her mind, however, she was quite able to enjoy it, but it never just immediately clicked for her the way it did for me.
Occasional, I think that you in particular misunderstood what I was saying. In fact, I would bet money that what you described about your own musical tastes would line up perfectly with Levitin's theories. Again, he says nothing about individual songs, or even about people being somehow naturally inclined to only like music from their own generation. What matters is the elements of music that you learn to like early on. In your case, it sounds like you probably grew up listening to various forms of rock 'n roll and pop. There are particular melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic structures associated with those styles of music that became the basis for what you like today. In particular, since you mention U2 and Pearl Jam, I'm guessing you are attracted to arena rock elements like soaring guitars, passionate sung vocals, and live drumming. Now think about the other kinds of music you do like, including those rare underground artists of today. Do they share any of these elements with Pearl Jam and U2? My bet would be that they do. Are they Pearl Jam cover bands or U2 imitators? Of course not. But they do share the same underlying structures, and you have developed a set of musical tastes that includes those structures.
quote: I wonder if there's a difference between musicians and regular folk in this respect? It seems like there's a sort of "musician's brain" musically speaking that responds differently to music than regular people's brains do. Maybe that's all it is. My dad continued to have the capacity to appreciate new music until he was in his late 60s. He liked TMBG. I think that was the last band I was able to get him into. [Smile] I remember he totally didn't get Beck. (But part of that is that he didn't get stuff that was mostly about rhythm, so he didn't like poetry and he never got hip hop.)
Levitin devotes a significant amount of time to discussing how musicians perceive and execute music. IIRC there is only a difference insofar as musicians have conditioned their minds to focus on the elements of music in a way that the casual listener has not. At least, this is true of your average musician. True prodigies (including folks with perfect pitch) do actually demonstrate a neurological difference- different areas of the brain are active while listening to music, and sometimes areas of the brain associated with music are larger than normal. The genetic disorder Williams Syndrome, for example, results in abnormalities in brain structure, and is associated with a number of symptoms, one of which is a much higher proportion than usual of affected people with perfect pitch.
Speaking for myself now, I could believe that musicians do also have something else that non-musicians may lack: an innate curiosity about music and enjoyment of music that breaks the rules they've learned. Keep in mind that our enjoyment of music comes from a mixture of satisfaction when we predict something successfully, and pleasurable surprise when something unexpected occurs- but only within certain limits. I suspect that musicians can deal with a far greater amount of musical surprise than non-musicians. When they experience a "Whoa, what was that?!" moment, musicians are more likely to subsequently think "Hmmm... why did I react like that? That's interesting!" rather than just automatically responding "Eww, that was unpleasant."
quote: Oh, that's another thing I'm curious about. Do you get into poetry? Does that correlate with the type of music you like? (rhythmic/melodic/harmonic)
It wouldn't surprise me if it did, but Levitin doesn't talk about poetry at all in his book. His background prior to getting his PhD was in instrumental performance and sound engineering, so I think he's generally more interested in the elements unique to music.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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One thing I notice is that I'm always hearing the background music that's going on wherever I happen to be and most people don't seem to be. Like I will make a comment about the song that's playing, and the person I'm speaking to, often the one who is actually PLAYING the music in question, like if the radio is on at their desk or whatever, had no idea it was happening and wasn't listening at all. I don't seem to have the ability to tune out music that's playing wherever I happen to be. I can concentrate on other stuff, but the musical part of my brain is still listening to the music, and it will send me "yeah, this is good!" or "yikes, this suxx0rzzzz!" signals fairly often.
I couldn't shop in the grocery store that played Hall & Oates a lot (a band that was popular, horribly overplayed, and never very good to begin with, at some point in the past that I'm trying to suppress my memories of so please don't remind me ) until I got my mp3 player and now I'm safe. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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There is no doubt I am attracted to rock music. I wouldn't limit it to area rock, but it has always been the music I love. I may branch out into folk, blues or even jazz based rock but it usually is rock. My statement about U2 & Pearl Jam was for Tatiana's original post stating that everyone listens to the same 50 songs on the classic rock station. Meaning just because you like a type of music, doesn’t mean you can only listen to the same songs over and over.
I actually found your post very fascinating and it seems to ring true to me. I don't know if it would be as hard to acclimate to the new music if you are first introduced to the precursors of that type of music. So you can build up a mental vocabulary of the basics for that music. I lived with my grandmother in college. She liked a little rock but not much. She indicated she like a few Pink Floyd songs I was listening to, so I introduced her to others that were similar, then to other bands with similar sounds, by the time I moved out I had her listening to Pearl Jam and the Chile Peppers. She really like them. I think when young people start listening to Led Zepplin or other classic rock in school they are really building up a musical language to understand the rock music that came later.
The same thing happened to me with folk/bluegrass music. I didn't start off with Bill Monroe, I started off with a rock/pop/country band and then branched off thinking that was pretty cool, I'll try that.
If you think of music as a language it would make since that it becomes harder to learn new ones as you get older. Just like spoken languages and it is easier to learn one closer to the one you already speak.
Back to Tatiana's original point. I think a lot of people don't care that much about music, so the can hear the same piece of music a million times without listening to it. So they learn a few popular songs early in there life and then for the rest of their life when they hear that song they subconsciously think “I like that song”, and that is as far as it goes. Since they aren't really listening to the song they don't get tired of it.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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SC Carver, "I think a lot of people don't care that much about music, so the can hear the same piece of music a million times without listening to it. So they learn a few popular songs early in there life and then for the rest of their life when they hear that song they subconsciously think “I like that song”, and that is as far as it goes. Since they aren't really listening to the song they don't get tired of it." That sounds true, and yet, most people when they're in their teens and 20s do seem to care more about music. It's later on that they stop caring.
I wonder if music as a social marker comes into it in any way? I have had the experience of finding out someone liked music I find insipid cause me to lose friendly feelings for them. I tell myself that's ridiculous, that everyone has their own tastes, etc. But it's definitely true that if I found out someone likes the same music I like, I feel more friendly toward them, and if I find out our musical tastes are drastically different, I feel less friendly, in other words, I have to try harder to find other ways to connect.
Another thing I've observed is that if someone I really like says some song or something is really good, maybe if it's even a song I previously disregarded, I might go back and listen to it with new ears and realize what they find so good about it. Friends (particularly those whose musical tastes I trust because they appreciate a lot of the music I know is good) can expand my tastes.
On the other hand, I've had close and dear friends with whom I share no overlapping music, we have zero bands or songs in common. So it's complicated, I guess.
To what extent do friends affect your musical tastes?
quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: I'd love to buy the album Duvet is on, but I can't find it, even online, no matter how hard I've tried.
I will find Hate and that other album, though, and buy those ASAP!
I bought my copy about a year ago used on Amazon. Looks like that's still an option. I love that track, but there's something that bothers me about the percussion. Can't quite put my finger on it. (My favorite drummers are Carter Beauford and Ringo Starr. Take that for what it's worth.)
I will never get tired of this one, no matter how many times it's played. And this particular performance is quite impressive.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Mike: I bought my copy about a year ago used on Amazon. Looks like that's still an option. I love that track, but there's something that bothers me about the percussion. Can't quite put my finger on it. (My favorite drummers are Carter Beauford and Ringo Starr. Take that for what it's worth.)
That's interesting... I love the drumming in "Duvet." The little snare and hi-hat rolls add a lot to the general skittish feeling of the song's instrumentation. Also, the drumming is in a fairly typical late-90s rock style (lots of variation in the beat between verses, choruses and the bridge, particularly in the hi-hats and kick drums), mixed using late-90s rock production (greater emphasis on the hi-hat sounds and a sharper snare sound than is common today, combined with a softer, more muted kick drum sound). Since the late 90s was exactly the period during which I was just beginning the development of my own musical tastes, it makes perfect sense under Levitin's paradigm that I'd love that drum track.
quote: There is no doubt I am attracted to rock music. I wouldn't limit it to area rock, but it has always been the music I love. I may branch out into folk, blues or even jazz based rock but it usually is rock. My statement about U2 & Pearl Jam was for Tatiana's original post stating that everyone listens to the same 50 songs on the classic rock station. Meaning just because you like a type of music, doesn’t mean you can only listen to the same songs over and over.
Ack, y'know what? I totally mixed in parts of your post with Occasional's post in my response up there. My bad.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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quote: Which version of AATW? It's one of the more covered songs that I can think of in modern music history. DMB's version isn't bad, and though I bet few would agree
I actually LOVE DMB's verion. Particularly one 12 minute version I have. If it's not that 12 minute version, I'll take Hendrix's over Dylan's any day. Even though I dig Dylan way more than Hendrix in general.
Which 12 minute version? One of my favorite things about DMB is that the DMB fan community records every single concert and then trades the live music around, so it's not uncommon to have 40 different versions of the same song from a single concert season, because it's DMB and they NEVER just play a song like it is on the cd, they jazz it up, or they slow it down, or they add a sax solor, or a violin solo, or hell, sometimes they even change the words.
I went to see DMB in Clarkston on the 23rd of August, and they closed with AATW, it was fantastic. Also most of his versions of AATW tend to be 8+ minutes. Do you know which album that AATW is from? Listener Supported? Live at Red Rocks? Or just some random recording from a concert?
I think part of why I continually find myself refalling in love with their music is that with every concert I go to, and every recording I download I either hear a new sound (when they write new material and test it out on the audience, and then you don't hear it again for 10 years), or they reinvent their old sound by replaying songs they've already written but much more amazingly than they'd ever sounded on the cd.
Anyway, I think you really have to love a band in order to listen to the same song played 100 different ways, and some might fault that, saying there is so much else out there, but I don't see why you can't do both. Dave himself advocates never staying with one thing forever:
"And if you hold on tight To what you think is your thing You may find you're missing all the rest."
- "The Best of What's Around" DMB
Got a bit carried away there.
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Let's talk jpop (or jrock!) sometime. I'm excited at the moment because I'm going back to Japan in November (it's been four years since I was there last) and I get to update my CD collection and see some bands. Yah!
Posts: 2451 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I grew up listening to classical music and stuff like the Beatles. That was the music we had at home and the radio was rarely on.
I began to branch out into Disney-style and Musicals as a young teen. Now, I listen to a peculiar mix of music that goes from Now back in time and stumbles all over the place (includes things from Mika, to Muse, to Madness, to Bowie, to The Who, to Sinatra, to Jaques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris to folk/music hall music and from Williams to Vaughn Williams to Beethoven.)
I tend to prefer classic rock radio stations simply because it's a somewhat edited version of the music from the era. I like it also because it's the sound I came from. Like SC Carver says, I think there is a certain amount of development in hearing and learning to like music: I began with the Beatles and branched out to other British sixties bands, moved to the seventies, the eighties and finally to the nineties which I consider close enough to now to be Now. I definitely lean to rock instead of pop. I guess I like three types of music: rock (begun with the Beatles), classical/soundtrack ( begun with classical music) and musicals (begun with things like The Sound of Music and My Fair Lady). All the music I like could probably be extrapolated from the music I grew up on. This would slowly become looser and stretchier as I got older.
However, I don't think I'll ever really get tired of songs I grew up with, especially since there will always be new music to balance it with or mix it with or compare it to.
What may be a part of this is I have a curious inability to judge music- especially popular music. I can't really tell you if I like a song until I've heard it at least four or five times. I don't often pick up on the lyrics until the ninth or tenth. I know what songs I really like because I go back to them again and again and I can listen to them on infinite loop and not become annoyed.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Do you know which album that AATW is from? Listener Supported? Live at Red Rocks? Or just some random recording from a concert?
I think it's from the Live in Chicago disc. Do you have that one?
I've seen Dave live more than any other band, their concerts are fantastic. Though I think 1999 was probably the last time I went to one of their shows. I managed to see them six plus times between 94-99.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I cared WAY more about music around 13-19 than I do now.
It makes me sad to think about having lost that part of my life, but in a way I think it was part of me "growing up". I am not particularly mad at the world, depressed at my social isolation, or hopelessly pining for an unavailable girl. Those childish feelings (and many others) were what connected me most to the music I loved.
I keep meaning to make an effort to get back into the newer music, but I haven't quite felt the motivation to yet.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: I cared WAY more about music around 13-19 than I do now.
It makes me sad to think about having lost that part of my life, but in a way I think it was part of me "growing up". I am not particularly mad at the world, depressed at my social isolation, or hopelessly pining for an unavailable girl. Those childish feelings (and many others) were what connected me most to the music I loved.
I keep meaning to make an effort to get back into the newer music, but I haven't quite felt the motivation to yet.
I was precisely this way. But I've always been very musically sympathetic. Today I still play piano/guitar quite frequently. I've found that writing my own songs about my own life is just as satisfying as listening to a love ballad as a love struck teenager. It's the closest thing I've got to those feelings nowadays. Sometimes it's just extremely satisfying to plug a guitar into an amp, turn up the distortion, play some solid chords, and sing along with it.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Do you know which album that AATW is from? Listener Supported? Live at Red Rocks? Or just some random recording from a concert?
I think it's from the Live in Chicago disc. Do you have that one?
I've seen Dave live more than any other band, their concerts are fantastic. Though I think 1999 was probably the last time I went to one of their shows. I managed to see them six plus times between 94-99.
I haven't gotten around to Live at Chicago. I tend to download his concert music that hasn't been released on cd because it's free (and not illegal!).
I envy you having seen him in the 90's. You probably saw him at much smaller venues than I generally see him at, and he played all his old music all the time, which is the stuff I usually want to hear the most!
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: I cared WAY more about music around 13-19 than I do now.
It makes me sad to think about having lost that part of my life, but in a way I think it was part of me "growing up". I am not particularly mad at the world, depressed at my social isolation, or hopelessly pining for an unavailable girl. Those childish feelings (and many others) were what connected me most to the music I loved.
I keep meaning to make an effort to get back into the newer music, but I haven't quite felt the motivation to yet.
That makes me just a bit depressed. Music is my blood, as long as it's good and packed with deep interesting feeling
Not all of the new stuff is bad. There is Fair to Midland to consider... And Dir en grey... And Tori Amos... and Kate Bush, but she hasn't come out in a new album in some time...
Then there is classical and opera.
Am I the only one who goes from metal to hindi music to funk, then jazz, then back to metal again?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Syn, my tastes are pretty eclectic. I've been into at various times classical, south african, colombian, west african, blues, rock, folk, bluegrass, alternative, jazz, and I'm sure there's more. I tend to think that there is good music in just about any genre, and my only requirement for music is that it be good. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Why has there only been one CD in my car's CD player for the past month?
Because Queen is awesome. And I can always find new interesting parts to adore.
Maybe it'll change in a week or a month and I'll be on a kick of something else. Maybe it won't. It makes me happy and keeps me entertained, and that's enough for me. Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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I remember he totally didn't get Beck. (But part of that is that he didn't get stuff that was mostly about rhythm, so he didn't like poetry and he never got hip hop.)
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