posted
What's the opinion on this? I really don't know here I stand on it. I lean towards "against", but I see the point of those who push for it. Any opinions on it here?
posted
English is the lingua franca. Why would anyone wanna settle on it being merely yet another amongst many national languages?
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I see no need for this. Its feels jingoistic to me and exclusionary. Why not just learn Spanish (or whatever other language is in use in your area)? It's not that hard. Why do people act like one language is better than many? The more the better! Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
tell that to the Austro-Hungarians.
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"Why not just learn Spanish (or whatever other language is in use in your area)? It's not that hard."
Speak for yourself. My mother speaks hebrew in the home, and I know diddly. I took a year of spanish in high school, and 2 semesters in college, and failed, despite working my ass off. Language can be very difficult to learn, unless you are immersed, and for many of us, thats simply not an option.
That said, i'm not in favor of a national language.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
Lately I've been leaning toward bing in favor of English as a national language. I'm not sold one way or the other, but generally I think it would be best, since so much is nationalized, that we all speak the same "official" language. This does not preclude people speaking whatever language they want, but it does, for example, keep schools from having to cater to speakers of countless languages. I know in some areas there are schools that have to contend with dozens of languages being spoken by their student body.
As for me learning a second language...to be honest, I've tried a couple of times but there is so little opportunity to practice in this country because English is so common, that it's hard to learn and easy to forget. I used to speak passable French but now I can barely remember how to wish you good day. Spanish is the most common language in this country, other than English, but even that wouldn't help my mom remember it thirty years after she graduated with a major in Spanish. So I actually disagree that it's easy to learn or retain a second language in this country unless you are a part of a culture that actively speaks a non-English language in the home.
Anyway, definitely open to hearing both sides of this, if anyone is honestly really opinionated. Most people I talk to don't care that much. Come to think of it, neither do I. Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: Language can be very difficult to learn, unless you are immersed, and for many of us, thats simply not an option.
Even immersion never really did the trick for me.
quote:Originally posted by Paul Goldner: That said, i'm not in favor of a national language.
posted
I looked up jingoistic (because i had no clue what it meant...) and got patriotic out of it.
I think a National Language can serve to unite us as Americans. We speak English here.
Come, Assimilate, Make a better World with us...
Just please learn English while you're doing it.
I think patriotism is good. I don't think a National Language is bad... I'm not trying to say people should have to leave everything they come from (literally or 'heritage-aly') behind. I just think a definite common language would be a good thing.
Posts: 1355 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Lately I've been leaning toward bing in favor of English as a national language. I'm not sold one way or the other, but generally I think it would be best, since so much is nationalized, that we all speak the same "official" language. This does not preclude people speaking whatever language they want, but it does, for example, keep schools from having to cater to speakers of countless languages. I know in some areas there are schools that have to contend with dozens of languages being spoken by their student body.
I don't understand how making English official would in any way help with this issue. I believe it would actually make things worse, as it would be yet another excuse to cut funds for bilingual education.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
But why stop at a national language? Doesn't that just fall into the same category of many of our other national opinions: "we're right 'cuz we're the US, and everyone should do it our way!!!"
If an international committee got together and figured out the best language that would make international relations better for everyone, I would hop on board an learn that language. I know there are some groups trying to learn a new mixed language (Esperanto, for one), but it doesn't have international backing, so I think it would be a waste of time to try to learn something that probably won't be any good.
And it is also very hard to learn a language when you're not a child (at least for most people). If we were taught from the beginning two languages (like whatever native language you have and some global Common language), and everyone did it, not just small, independent groups, it would have much more of an impact. I would teach my (not yet conceived) children the international language in a heartbeat.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I think everyone should have to know English, it's in everyone's best interest for them to know it, but at the same time I'm leery of a program that might try and brush away ancestral roots, many of which are tied to languages.
I've talked to my cousin before, who works at a hospital, and she's told me that a lot of the time they'll get in people who don't speak English and when she asks them if they have allergies or what's wrong, they'll keep saying "I don't know" in Spanish. It's dangerous, and in the end more expensive I'd venture to guess as well.
So I think everyone should speak English, but I'd be afraid that making English the national language would just be a foot in the door to destroying the heritage of people who come here that speak different languages.
People always talk about assimilating into America like we're the friggin Borg. "Your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own." In other words, we're going to erase everything you used to be in order to make you American, so learn English and fit in. I think it's alright to want to add their distinctiveness to us, more along the lines of the many different threads making up the tapestry that is America type argument. But I don't think they should have to give up where they came from in order to do it.
What benefit does making English the national language really have anyway? What does it change? If the law doesn't make something better or protect something, then why bother having it?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
If someone could tell me what "national language" meant I could venture an opinion on it. Does it mean the language our government conducts business in? Then English is already the national language.
Does "national language" mean that the government can use other languages to communicate with residents and citizens? Then it's an impracticable and hostile thing to want to do.
I have no problem recognizing that English is the base language for government business - law and regulation drafting, the default language in court, etc. Most uses of other languages are translations from something in English, something that will be translated to English as it is heard/read by the relevant government entity, or a particular extra service provided in areas where it's needed (such as Spanish-speaking clerks at the DMV).
English undeniably has a more central place in this country than other languages. Is "national language" simply supposed to be a codification of that?
Until someone can tell me what it actually means, there seems little point to the discussion.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
There are benefits to having a common language. In emergency situations, control or proper help can be given with confidence when those giving directions are sure that everyone speaks a common language.
And we talk like assimilating into America is like assimilating into the Borg, because sometimes that's how policies or people believe. The American system rarely caters to those who don't speak English. Only after a long time, and a lot of arguing and legal battles, that policy gets changed to accommodate those who speak different languages.
I would be comfortable knowing that everyone spoke the same language that I did, and if I was in a large group of people that spoke the same language that I did, I would be more confident in claiming that everyone should learn my language. But it doesn't make it right.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
In recent history, schools punished students who were members of Native American tribes for speaking their own language. This has been a contributing factor in some of those languages becoming extinct, and others nearly so.
I cannot help but feel that, with English already being the primary language of the vast majority of the population, any bill or law making English the "official national language" would be used for the worst purposes by the most xenophobic elements of our culture.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Once you are in adolescence and later, learning another language to the point of fluency is extremely difficult. I think it's very flippant of you, Tatiana, to act as if it's so easy that we all should do it. There are numerous studies on language acquisition that bear this fact out - once you are past childhood, learning a new language is very hard. And, unless you start very young, you'll never speak a second language without an "accent" because you just don't know the phonemes of the other language. Very few and privileged are those so linguistically gifted they can speak multiple languages fluently and accentless.
I think we should make an effort to teach the children of immigrants English, and put a lot of effort into bilingual education, especially in the early years. Every student should be taught in English primarily, with ESL teachers on hand to help facilitate the move from the native language into English. I agree that having a common language for legal, business, and emergency services is beneficial, but I don't see how making English the "official" language enhances that effort at all.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I think we should make an effort to teach the children of immigrants English, and put a lot of effort into bilingual education, especially in the early years. Every student should be taught in English primarily, with ESL teachers on hand to help facilitate the move from the native language into English. I agree that having a common language for legal, business, and emergency services is beneficial, but I don't see how making English the "official" language enhances that effort at all.
posted
cmc, jingoism is the rotten underside of patriotism: where love of country becomes hatred of other and xenophobia. I am a patriot but never rarely (never?) a jingoist.
quote: Jingoism is chauvinistic patriotism, usually associated with a War Hawk political stance. In practice, it refers to sections of the general public who advocate the use of threats or of actual force against other countries in order to safeguard a country's national interests.
English is the defacto national language. But codifying it as the national language through law would be, as Tatiana says, exclusionary and counterproductive. I agree with Belle and Rivka that ESL and bilingual education is the way to go.
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Virtually no immigrant doesn't want to learn English. (Not counting people who immigrate when they are in their seventies to die with their families.) Failing to learn English severely curtails your opportunities and makes you forever a stranger in your own country. Creating a national language doesn't create an incentive where one is lacking. It is simply one more statement, in a time when immigrants are portrayed by some as the bogeymen, of "We don't like you; go the hell away."
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
You know, the sad thing is that people will read your posts and believe you . . .
Anyway, IIRC correctly, that amendment already passed in Florida, back in '92 or '93. That's why we now have no ESOL kids in Florida schools, everybody speaks English, and you can go to a grocery store and order your damn bread in English! It solved everything!
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Anyway, IIRC correctly, that amendment already passed in Florida, back in '92 or '93. That's why we now have no ESOL kids in Florida schools, everybody speaks English, and you can go to a grocery store and order your damn bread in English! It solved everything!
Huh. Funny that it didn't work here in California then. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My great-grandparents spoke mostly Japanese with enough English to get by.
My grandparents speak both languages more or less fluently.
My father only knows conversational Japanese.
I know almost none.*
We don't need English as the official national language to make assimilation work. What we need to do is be patient and let it work at its own pace. Trying to rush things, IMO, will just make the process more difficult.
*This is despite taking years of Japanese classes while I was in grade school. Learning a second language is supremely difficult for me, and I'm always impressed by people who are bilingual.
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: Well Icarus, you've convinced me, I'm now for English as the National Language. A succsesful trial run and all...
Hobbes
It doesn't seem that having more than one official language has harmed (or been painful to the population of) other countries, as far as I know. It certainly isn't problematic for Canada to have all government items -- and most publically sold private ones, for that matter -- in both French and English.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
It's odd to me that people are saying it's too hard for them to learn a second language, so they expect first generation immigrants, who probably work crazy impossible hours at low paying jobs just to survive, and many of whom have little or no schooling in their own languages, to do something that's too hard for them to do.
Then they want to throw the immigrants' kids into a situation in which they're at a vast disadvantage (a school which is taught only in a language they don't understand) and expect them to just catch up with no help and no outside tutoring, when they have parents who can't help them with their homework.
Is something wrong with that picture?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
As far as I can see, the same people who are saying that learning another language is difficult are endorsing bilingual education and are against limiting everything to English. Seems pretty consistent to me.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
My adopted son Sasha emigrated to the U.S. at age five speaking only Russian. He said all the kids around him in school were speaking English, which sounded to him like growling and yapping, and he felt like he was the only cat in a world full of dogs.
The point is that it's hard enough as it is. Immigrating, giving up everything about your home culture and coming to a strange new world, is difficult. Imagine doing it with no training at all, no education, no context in which to see the bigger picture. Immigrants and their kids deserve to be given whatever welcome, whatever assistance, the community can afford to give. Making English the "official language" just says to them "go away and leave us alone, it's your problem".
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
rivka, your position does make sense. I was talking about people who think the opposite, that it's too hard for they themselves to learn a second language so immigrants and their children should be required to just know English without anyone spending any resources to teach them.
It's also not very reasonable to say "it's hard to learn a second language because we don't get any exposure to other languages here" therefore "we need to make English the official language to prevent the possibility that we'll be exposed to other languages here".
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: It's odd to me that people are saying it's too hard for them to learn a second language, so they expect first generation immigrants, who probably work crazy impossible hours at low paying jobs just to survive, and many of whom have little or no schooling in their own languages, to do something that's too hard for them to do.
Then they want to throw the immigrants' kids into a situation in which they're at a vast disadvantage (a school which is taught only in a language they don't understand) and expect them to just catch up with no help and no outside tutoring, when they have parents who can't help them with their homework.
Is something wrong with that picture?
So what's the deal, we should all learn every language? I see where you're coming from, but we seem to be talking like there are only two languages: english and "immigrant". I'm Canadian, so I don't necessarily know everything about the situation in the States, but here in Canada we have two "official" languages, English and French. What does that mean? Well, government activities are conducted in English or French. Labels and signs are in English and/or French. Schools are taught in English and/or French. What it doesn't mean is that immigrants are prohibited to come here without knowing the language, that they must leave their cultures at the door, or that I can't walk down a street in Toronto and here many different languages. Tell me if any of this is all that different from the States. I don't know if there's a significant difference between an "official" language and a "national" language though.
What I'm saying is that making English the national language in the U.S. probably won't change a thing, since for all intents and purposes it already is. Besides, I personally wouldn't move to any country and expect to get by without speaking whatever language the majority does. Why would I expect everyone to know my language?
Oh, and as for school, that's what ESL/ELL programs are for.
quote:Making English the "official language" just says to them "go away and leave us alone, it's your problem".
Just wanted to add, as someone who lives in a country where English is an "official language" but still receives a huge number of immigrants, that's just silly. Who comes to the US and doesn't know that they'll be at a disadvantage if they can't speak English?
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
neo-dragon, ESL programs are what is at issue. The effect of saying "English is the legally mandated official language of the U.S." would be to cut funding for bilingual education, have official government forms be only in English, and so on.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Because it HAS happened that way in individual states which have passed such laws/amendments.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I was talking about people who think the opposite, that it's too hard for they themselves to learn a second language so immigrants and their children should be required to just know English without anyone spending any resources to teach them.
I don't see anyone in this thread advocating that position.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Tatiana: I see no need for this. Its feels jingoistic to me and exclusionary. Why not just learn Spanish (or whatever other language is in use in your area)? It's not that hard. Why do people act like one language is better than many? The more the better!
Even if English was the official national language, people would still be wise to learn another language, especially one that's commonly used where they live. That's just realistic living.
I think the bigger question is, how big a percentage of the population has to speak another language before that language is added to the list of official languages? For the US this is obviously going to be an issue with Spanish as the demographic shifts that way. Citizens are more informed and more participatory when they understand more, and getting official information in their first language is very valuable for that.
Australia's national language is English, but we have multi-cultural government policies that try to bridge the gap for non-English speaking citizens. Immigrants get free English lessons and there's a free translation service available whenever you are dealing with government departments. You call a number and someone who speaks your language then calls the department and translates for you. Pretty cool I think. Posts: 2451 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
I guess my concern would be, does not having English as the national language reduce the motivation for schools to get children who don't speak English, learn it? Or in other words, my concern is, could not having it cause us to graduate more children who are completely unprepared for life in the United States? I met someone who only speaks Spanish, he worked close to 20 hours a day, six days a week with no vacation and was still living on the poverty line. His wife said the only other job he could find had similar attributes but the working conditions were worse. Now if this is true or not, I've never looked for a job speaking only Spanish, but I know that both the claims of job conditions and income were true having observed it myself. How bad it is may be up for discussion, but I think we can all get behind the fact that not being able to speak English makes one very unmarketable in America.
I spent 9 months in France when I was in Kindergarten; I went to a bilingual school, and in the nine months there picked up about as many words as I have fingers. Of course I didn't have the motivation that my future job possibilities depended on my learning French, but on the other hand, how many kindergartners do you know that would be motivated if they knew that? I think the kind of schooling and programs that are available make a big difference as to if the children learn the language, and if there's a feeling that they can get out without knowing it (a feeling for both teachers and students) that could be a problem. So we go back to the question, does the lack of the law, cause that feeling?
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Because it HAS happened that way in individual states which have passed such laws/amendments.
Maybe, but the US is like Canada in that the population is so diverse that I don't every see it becoming an English only club. Maybe in the past, but not now. It's not like, say Japan, where probably 95% of the population is ethnic Japanese.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: I guess my concern would be, does not having English as the national language reduce the motivation for schools to get children who don't speak English, learn it?
*jawdrop* Seriously?
You mean, the fact that the teachers, administrators, and parents are all well aware that lack of English skills will limit the kids' options isn't enough? Making it a LAW is the missing piece???
Do you know anyone who works in bilingual education or with ESL students? I know many. Trust me, motivation is not the problem. Insufficient funding -- and laws taking more and more funding away -- is the problem.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Do you know anyone who works in bilingual education or with ESL students?
No, that's exactly why I asked the question. This isn't anywhere near any of my areas of my expertize, that's why I'm asking questions, because I recognize I know nothing about the subject.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Because it HAS happened that way in individual states which have passed such laws/amendments.
Maybe, but the US is like Canada in that the population is so diverse that I don't every see it becoming an English only club.
You misunderstand me. I don't think such laws would actually discourage immigration. I think they would (directly or indirectly) further strip funding from ESL programs, cause government agencies to stop making available official forms in languages other than English, cut funding for translators, etc.
I don't just English-only laws are a bad idea for immigrants. I think they are a terrible idea for everyone who hopes that all the immigrants in this country have the ability to be good, productive citizens.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Hobbes, I'm not amused. I'm stunned. I apologize -- this has been a huge issue in my state for many years.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Why can't the opposite be true with regards to ESL? I mean, if English were the national/official language, perhaps the government would have more incentive to help citizens learn it? Or maybe I'm just being naive.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Sorry Rivka, I'd already edited my post because I realized the words I used could be rather biting ones, and I certainly don't intent to employ such tactics, and certainly not with you!
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I don't see anyone in this thread advocating that position.
At least one poster is in this thread, and it's an idea that's quite common in local communities. I agree with you, rivka, that we don't need to cut funding for bilingual education.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: Why can't the opposite be true with regards to ESL? I mean, if English were the national/official language, perhaps the government would have more incentive to help citizens learn it?
If that became true, I'd sign up for it in a heartbeat! Unfortunately, all the rhetoric I've heard every time some political group or politician bring up the issue is about cutting funding to ESL programs, not printing official forms in other languages, etc.
Hobbes,
Tatiana, I don't know if I'm the one misreading other people's posts or you are, but I'm not seeing that. I do see several posters with vague, open-ended statements that can be read a multitude of ways.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I'm all for both making English the national language, and for ensuring there is bilingual education for kids in the schools - with a big push to get them schooled up and into regular English-only classes as quickly as possible - and giving free ESL and literacy classes to adult immigrants.
People need to be able to communicate with each other, with governmental departments, etc, and having one official language simplifies that process. We might be able to provide translations on street signs and government forms for a second language, but we're never going to be able to provide translations for all possible languages, so we're then going to be excluding immigrants who are in the minority from the advantages experiences by other immigrants. That doesn't seem to really level the playing field, either.
Give immigrants all the help possible in learning English. And give them the credit for being able to do so, to adapt to our culture rather then protecting them from it. Most of our ancestors managed... I'm not descended from Mayflower pilgrim, my people got over here and figured it out. We didn't give up our culture (at least not until becoming completely mongrelized), but we picked up American culture in addition.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by guinevererobin: We didn't give up our culture (at least not until becoming completely mongrelized), but we picked up American culture in addition.
Do you think that current immigrants aren't doing that?
Posts: 1658 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by guinevererobin: We didn't give up our culture (at least not until becoming completely mongrelized), but we picked up American culture in addition. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think that current immigrants aren't doing that?
I'm saying that requiring them to learn English, rather then allowing them to function (outside their own homes) in their native language, doesn't detract from them maintaining a sense of their original culture.
Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
cruising down to post after seeing morbo's response... haven't read past that...
I agree that bilingual education is excellent. The more ways you (general you...) have to express yourself, the better.
At the same time, however, I feel a common ground - common language - common understanding of letters strung together - could help.
I say this because... I speak English. I speak Spanish. I speak both well, but English is my native tongue and I'm sure I know it much 'better'. I've lived a few places, I've known many people. Some of the people I know speak the English I've known my whole life differently than I learned to speak it.
The differences between dialect and region vary so greatly in and of themselves... A different language is an even larger variable.
I don't have a problem if America has or doesn't have a National Language. I just feel if there were to be one, English should be it. Not to eliminate all the languages it's come from - just to establish one for Us to start from.
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