posted
Whoops - I changed my mind about what I was going to say halfway through the sentence and didn't change the first part of that clause.
The question makes more sense now.
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For those that believe in souls, do believe in an afterlife, do not believe in a beforelife, and believe that abortion kills a human being, are the fates of the souls of aborted children the same as those who die after being born?
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Is there anybody that believes in souls but does not believe in an afterlife? And if so, what is the "soul" in that belief?
That is something I also wondered about here. My question had more to do with whether the soul is material or nonmaterial.
I can't say that I believe in a soul (material or nonmaterial), but I do find the concept intriguing, and I think it's something that science could study without invoking God or religion.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:We didn't exist before we were born, and that worked out okay, no?
Statements like this always surprise me, although I know it shouldn't, when it comes from someone who believes in an afterlife.
It seems that an afterlife in general makes a lot more sense if there is a beforelife as well.
Otherwise, don't you have to account for how combining earthly DNA and cellular mitosis somehow creates a soul or an aiua or whatever it is that experiences the afterlife? If not, where does the soul-thingy come from/when is it created?
I don't believe in a before life. I'm quite certain that nothing of me except for whatever divine spark there is that grows into a soul, existed before I came into being physically. At what point that is, I won't hazard a guess. Conception? Forty days after conception? Birth? Thirty days after birth?
I believe that we are beings of self-made soul. God gives us the potential. We fill that potential ourselves, for better or for worse.
In Judaism (some views, anyway), existence is composed of levels of being, starting with God, and getting progressively more veiled from God. The world we know is the bottommost level. But our souls in full cut through all of the levels, going up to a point where we're essentially one with God.
During this life, we are only normally able to perceive this world. Think of it as the soul having windows in each level of existence, but normally, they're all closed except for the ones opening into our world here. Spiritual practices, such as certain forms of meditation (and even dreams, to an extent), can allow one to peek through windows higher up.
When we die, it isn't that our souls go somewhere else. Rather, the windows on this level close, and we start seeing out of higher ones. We don't go to a different world; that part of our souls was always in that higher world. It just becomes the part that we think of as "I".
Is there a parallel of bodies and physicality on that level? Who knows? Who cares? We'll find out eventually.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I believe in the afterlife like I believe in Puerto Rico (to quote a friend of mine). I hope Drive By will forgive me.
That is, you haven't been there, but you have enough indirect evidence (e.g., from other people) to believe it's real?
Yes. I believe in it that simply and powerfully, I mean. I know it exists, the same as Puerto Rico, though I haven't been there yet either. It's not a hope or a wish or a maybe. It's real.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I believe in the afterlife like I believe in Puerto Rico (to quote a friend of mine). I hope Drive By will forgive me.
That is, you haven't been there, but you have enough indirect evidence (e.g., from other people) to believe it's real?
Yes. I believe in it that simply and powerfully, I mean. I know it exists, the same as Puerto Rico, though I haven't been there yet either. It's not a hope or a wish or a maybe. It's real.
How do you know it?
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Hearing these arguments for the soul and how it will take you to the afterlife bring up a fundamental problem with it. Are we assuming that this soul is magic? Or is it energy? Because it's certainly not matter since bodies don't change mass upon death. From my other thread most people seem to think that heaven, hell, what have you, is "somewhere else" not in this universe, so another universe? And when we die our souls(something REAL) is really transferred to this other universe? Similar to the His Dark Materials view of afterlife. I just can't help but wonder what this "soul" is referring to when we toss it around in discussion. (sorry for being a jerk, I just can't believe that my entity is tied up in some magic)
As to fear at oblivion. I suppose that the fact that I once was not also disturbs me. My reasoning goes something like this: I think about myself walking down the street and all of a sudden somebody walks up to me and shoots me in the face. "I" my body, is destroyed. My memories of iguanas as a young kid, of chemistry, of my family, cease to exist as my brain is smashed to pieces. Then I think about what it means to not exist. For me, the world ends at me.... the only thing i have ever known is my perception of the world. with the loss of that there is no longer an I. there is just a world, and no perception. It chills me to think that i will change so profoundly that i will cease to exist........ It's not that I think not existing would be unpleasant... It is just undesirable, and scary to think of yourself not being a player in the world, when you have always been the only constant in your perception of the world. (I hope this confused post makes some sense, to you and me both)
Posts: 655 | Registered: May 2005
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Cut out part of the brain, and you lose your memories. Part of your memories, or all of it, or whatever.
Based on what evidence is it supposed a person regains any of that memory once they lose more of the brain, as what happens in death?
My personality changes if you mess with my brain. Cut out the right part of my brain, and parts of my personality dissapear entirely. Based upon what evidence is it supposed a person's personality is restored when they lose more of the brain?
My ability to do many things, thinking at the level I can, doing math, metacognating, generally all those human things... those are lost if you cut out the right part of the brain.
Based upon what evidence is it supposed that those things return if a person loses even more of their brain?
These things... all the things that make us ourselves, are tied to the brain. Mess with the brain and, as Prozac or that guy who got a pipe through his brain show, our very selves, our feelings, the kinds of thoughts we hold, the kinds of choices we make, change, a small or a large amount depending on the effect.
All in the brain.
What about losing all the brain, for that, more than anything else, describes death, could possibly make one think that you get any of these things back, when during our life, losing parts of our brains is irreversible?
Sure, our brains can compensate for damage, especially when young... but how does it compensate if there's no brain to do any compensating?
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Starsnuffer: It chills me to think that i will change so profoundly that i will cease to exist........ It's not that I think not existing would be unpleasant... It is just undesirable, and scary to think of yourself not being a player in the world, when you have always been the only constant in your perception of the world. (I hope this confused post makes some sense, to you and me both)
I hear you. I don't really get it, but I think I see what you're saying.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: Hearing these arguments for the soul and how it will take you to the afterlife bring up a fundamental problem with it. Are we assuming that this soul is magic? Or is it energy? Because it's certainly not matter since bodies don't change mass upon death. From my other thread most people seem to think that heaven, hell, what have you, is "somewhere else" not in this universe, so another universe? And when we die our souls(something REAL) is really transferred to this other universe? Similar to the His Dark Materials view of afterlife. I just can't help but wonder what this "soul" is referring to when we toss it around in discussion. (sorry for being a jerk, I just can't believe that my entity is tied up in some magic)
I'd say the soul is closer to energy than magic, but I also don't think it's any kind of energy we'll be able to detect, any more than we can detect when a fetus becomes a person.
I'd say the soul is made out of the same 'stuff' as God (whether or not you believe in God, it's a decent comparison)--you can't detect it with any physical means because it has no physical basis. It is 'spiritual' which is a class all by itself.
I don't remember enough of His Dark Materials to actually make a comparison, but they did use scientific instruments to see the 'soul particles' right? I'd say that for me that's not what a soul is, but different people and religions have their own views and definitions.
Posts: 96 | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I meant in the idea that the dead went to a world of darkness, but if they had an interesting story to tell to the tormenters, the harpies, then they were allowed to step through the door to the world of the wheely guys, and so become spread through the universe, and experience the joy of that beautiful world forever.
Posts: 655 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I believe it based on personal experiences that I've had that wouldn't be convincing to tell about but would only be convincing if you experienced them yourself. Far from being delusions or hallucinations, though, they're even REALER than real life. Rather than being a dream, they're more like waking up from the dream that is daily existence.
I am not this body. This body belongs to me. =)
Javert, does that help answer your question?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:I believe it based on personal experiences that I've had that wouldn't be convincing to tell about but would only be convincing if you experienced them yourself.
I agree with this statement, 100%.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I *hope* there is an afterlife. I hate to think that death is so final. I can't even imagine what nothingness would be like.
I do have trouble reconciling the brain and the soul. Who are we? What is the essential part that would go on to the afterlife? Would I take my memories, even if disease or accident stole them from me in life?
But when I get too worked up asking myself these questions, I remember how much humans do NOT know, especially about the brain. Just because I can't rationalize it, doesn't mean it's not true.
I have never heard of a version of heaven or hell that rings true to me. Then again, how could a human know what heaven or hell is like? We've never been there and if we do get there, we can't return to share stories.
Of course, one of the problems with most of the versions of heaven I've heard is the same with any paradise -- one man's heaven is another man's hell.
Sometimes it's fun to think and dream about the possibilities, but in the end we'll just have to find out when we get there.
I often envy people with true faith and no doubts. I'll never be able to do that -- my brain isn't wire that way -- but there would be a certain comfort in "knowing" there was something else, even if in the end it didn't turn out to be true. (You'd never know.)
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I enjoy sleep. I figure, when you die, you're essentially going to sleep for a very long time. I also enjoy being awake, so I'm not looking forward to death, but it isn't the worst thing by a long shot.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: I can't even imagine what nothingness would be like.
Sort of like the 13 or 14 billion years before you were born. Death is only scary until you die. Then there is no "you" to speak of.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: I can't even imagine what nothingness would be like.
Sort of like the 13 or 14 billion years before you were born. Death is only scary until you die. Then there is no "you" to speak of.
Yeah, well, I don't remember the 13 or 14 billions years before I was born...or the eternity before that, either. So, until I die, I will probably maintain a healthy fear of death.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Is there anybody that believes in souls but does not believe in an afterlife? And if so, what is the "soul" in that belief?
The soul is the spiritual element of your creation. It may be an LDS-style "spirit child" of a heavenly father and/or mother, or it may be something that is created de novo from other spiritual processes which do not directly involve a god figure. Perhaps it's a product of the joining of the souls of your mother and your father, just as your physical form is a combination of the physical forms of your parents.
Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: "Yeah, well, I don't remember the 13 or 14 billions years before I was born...or the eternity before that, either."
That's the whole point. Of course you don't remember. For there was nothing to remember at all. It was a big, long period of... nothing.
And you'll cease to remember anything after death, too. It's the same thing, only forward in time instead of backward.
If death is the end, that is.
I
How do I know nothing happened before I was born? I can't remember it, but that doesn't mean nothing was there.
But I'm not sure how we got sidetracked here. The only point I was trying to make in my initial post in this topic was that I can't imagine BEING nothing. It's not that I don't know what nothing is...at least on an academic level. (Which may be meaningless in this case.)
quote:Is there anybody that believes in souls but does not believe in an afterlife? And if so, what is the "soul" in that belief?
The soul is the spiritual element of your creation. It may be an LDS-style "spirit child" of a heavenly father and/or mother, or it may be something that is created de novo from other spiritual processes which do not directly involve a god figure. Perhaps it's a product of the joining of the souls of your mother and your father, just as your physical form is a combination of the physical forms of your parents.
At what point during the combination of sperm and egg does the soul appear? Doesn't that imply that we can "call" a soul into existence by replicating biological processes?
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:At what point during the combination of sperm and egg does the soul appear? Doesn't that imply that we can "call" a soul into existence by replicating biological processes?
Beats me. I was just seeing if I could come up with some theologically plausible explanations for a soul that doesn't exist before physical life.
Personally, I doubt very much that there is any such thing as a soul that exists before OR after our mortal lives, but it's apparently easy to come up with theology to explain, well, anything.
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posted
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe we've discussed this already, but if the soul is real, could we in principle detect it if we look at the brain at a sufficiently microscopic level? Would we be able to see electrons, quarks, or whatever moving in "rational" patterns?
Posts: 781 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe we've discussed this already, but if the soul is real, could we in principle detect it if we look at the brain at a sufficiently microscopic level? Would we be able to see electrons, quarks, or whatever moving in "rational" patterns?
Even then, I don't know how that would show evidence for a soul. It would be interesting, of course.
The best evidence for a soul or a spirit would be to show that somehow the 'mind' can operate independently of the body.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I would think that if we saw particles moving rationally, contrary to what standard physics would say, we'd have circumstantial evidence that some sentient being outside the known universe was moving those particles. This phenomenon could be interpreted in other ways, of course; and it wouldn't say anything about whether that being could exist independently of a brain.
Posts: 781 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I would think that if we saw particles moving rationally, contrary to what standard physics would say, we'd have circumstantial evidence that some sentient being outside the known universe was moving those particles. This phenomenon could be interpreted in other ways, of course; and it wouldn't say anything about whether that being could exist independently of a brain.
I think that's a rather large jump. If we saw evidence of particles moving rationally it would be evidence of...particles moving rationally. Objects in space move rationally without inserting some sort of sentience from 'outside'.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: I would think that if we saw particles moving rationally, contrary to what standard physics would say, we'd have circumstantial evidence that some sentient being outside the known universe was moving those particles. This phenomenon could be interpreted in other ways, of course; and it wouldn't say anything about whether that being could exist independently of a brain.
My first thought would be that the sentience was coming from the brain of which the particles were a part, not some outside force.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Aren't you all assuming that somehow the soul is connected to the mind or the brain?
Well, it depends on what a 'soul' might mean to you. If you are positing that the soul is you, and thus retains your personality and thoughts and sentience, it's completely justified to connect that with a brain. The reason I say that is because when the brain is damaged we see definitive alterations in a person's personality and thought process.
Now, if you think the soul is just some essence that doesn't retain the personality of the person it belongs to, we can't say that it's connected to the brain any more than it might be connected to the spleen.
But since I don't see a way to test for the second kind of soul, all anyone can do is look for evidence of the existence of the first kind.
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I think it's okay to ask questions, even the unanswerable ones.
