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Author Topic: I'm an atheist
Glenn Arnold
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quote:
Doesn't omniscience remove all doubt? Isn't the idea of being omniscient the ability to already know everything? If that is limited, then nothing is unlimited- so what is god?
You're assuming a lot about what omniscience means. Bear in mind that I'm an atheist, so I don't believe there is a God in the first place, but assuming there is, we limited humans can't possibly know what Gods limits are.

Virtually all of theology is an attempt to understand that which is beyond understanding.

We say God is omnipotent and omniscient. Ok, what does that mean? Omnipotent means being capable of anything. Well, I'm capable of taking a trip to France. I'd have to buy the ticket, get on the plane, and go over and struggle with the language in order to have the experience. But I've never done that. So being capable doesn't mean I've actually made the journey.

We say God is omniscient. Does that mean he understands everything? Or does it merely mean that he has access to all information? I understand that going to France would require me to struggle with the language, but that's very different from the actual experience of doing it.

Even if God is capable of understanding what it's like to be human, that doesn't mean that he really does understand until he buys the ticket and takes the journey.

They say that one of the hardest things to do is to watch someone try to do something that you know how to do, without stepping in and doing it for them. Teachers comprehend that the student needs to struggle through the learning process, but it's frustrating to watch the student struggle with something that seems so easy, because the teacher already understands it. Think how hard it must be for God, because he knows EVERYTHING.

I find the whole idea fascinating because it matches my own philosophy, which I call "intrinsic love." You can love anyone (or everyone), because everyone is intrisically lovable.

We can only see a fraction of what makes up a whole person, and so we must act on very limited information to decide whether a person is "a good person" or not. But we can also act on information that we don't have. No matter what sins an individual has committed, in their own experience, those sins were driven by an overwhelming human experience. The Christian concept that we are all sinners is important, because inwardly, we understand that although we each have committed sins, we also recognize that we are lovable despite our sins. Call it rationalizing if you will, but we couldn't live with ourselves if we didn't believe that we deserve to be loved.

Take that inward understanding outside of ourselves, and we can forgive the sins of others by recognizing our shared human experience. It all fits with the other teachings of Jesus: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," "Judge not, lest ye be judged," "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others who trespass against us," and of course, "Do unto others as you'd have done to you."

What the "Last Temptation" postulates is that in order to "take the journey" and understand human frailty, God had to become human and experience human limitations in order to feel sympathy for our weakness and sinful nature. The movie doesn't claim that this is the truth, it's merely an attempt to understand God.

Yet you don't have to believe in God in order to gain from the lesson.

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JonnyNotSoBravo
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quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
I've never met an atheist who became a theist, but I've known a number of theist to atheist conversions.

Then you never met Tatiana on here. She was an atheist(I think, correct me if I'm wrong) for many years before she converted to LDS.

And I'm an atheist (if only a weak one); I'm just bringing this up because I didn't like your argument. [Smile] Kind of a Devil's advocate, if you believe in that sort of thing.

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Threads
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I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who have gotten "saved". You can probably find testimonials on some Christian websites.
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rollainm
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There's Kirk Cameron, for instance.

*snort*

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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by Threads:
I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who have gotten "saved". You can probably find testimonials on some Christian websites.

Well that's the thing, there are countless reasons to become an atheist. Some people, and this is the minority, still do believe but are just angry at god/the religion for whatever reason. So of course those atheists would be 'saved'.

And some, like Kirk, were atheists but never really thought about it. So when they get scared by Pascal's Wager, they turn quite easily.

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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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Most of the open atheists (that is, atheists who make it a point that they're atheists, instead of simply being passive about God) I've known are atheists either because they grew up in an openly secular family, and/or they have something against their former religion or religion in general.

Unfortunately, this gives atheists a bad name because that means their passion is derived from annoyance, rebelliousness, disgust, or even, in the most extreme cases, hatred. Many of the former atheists who converted were among the passive crowd.

But to provide a famous example of atheist-Christian conversion, may I present C.S. Lewis...

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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer:
But to provide a famous example of atheist-Christian conversion, may I present C.S. Lewis...

I don't want to be rude, but I don't really understand what everyone sees in Lewis.
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rollainm
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quote:
Originally posted by Javert:
quote:
Originally posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer:
But to provide a famous example of atheist-Christian conversion, may I present C.S. Lewis...

I don't want to be rude, but I don't really understand what everyone sees in Lewis.
Oh no...you've done it now! [Embarrassed]


Actually, I somewhat agree. I mean, he was a great author, but there is/was certainly much more brilliant and original talent out there.

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Javert
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quote:
Originally posted by rollainm:
Oh no...you've done it now! [Embarrassed]


Actually, I somewhat agree. I mean, he was a great author, but there is/was certainly much more brilliant and original talent out there.

I agree. He is a great writer.

But as far as his arguments...I lost all respect for his abilities in that sense when I read his trilemma.

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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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I don't agree with Lewis on everything either, though I respect him a great deal. Anyway, Glenn did ask...
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King of Men
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Lewis was never an atheist, he was a lapsed Christian.
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Jhai
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My favorite philosophy professor, Wielenberg, used to teach a first-year seminar called "Introduction to Philosophy through the Works of C.S. Lewis." It was a good class, but mainly (as another professor put it) because Wielenberg made Lewis into a better philosopher than he was. I think the class was so popular because the student body was largely Christian.

Of course, Wielenberg is an atheist, and is the author of a book entitled "Godless Universe" ...

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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
Most of the open atheists (that is, atheists who make it a point that they're atheists, instead of simply being passive about God) I've known are atheists either because they grew up in an openly secular family, and/or they have something against their former religion or religion in general.


Unfortunately, this gives atheists a bad name because that means their passion is derived from annoyance, rebelliousness, disgust, or even, in the most extreme cases, hatred. Many of the former atheists who converted were among the passive crowd.

But to provide a famous example of atheist-Christian conversion, may I present C.S. Lewis...

Lewis' own description of atheism is someone who is angry at God. That's impossible. You can't be angry at something you don't believe exists. Of actual atheists, there is most certainly anger at religion, and especially at fundamentalism and evangelism. But Lewis' arguments are all quite transparent. He simply couldn't grasp the idea that atheists actually don't believe in God.

quote:
Anyway, Glenn did ask...
Actually, no I didn't. I merely stated that I'd never met someone who had converted from atheism to theism. And while quite a few Christians used to come to alt.atheism and claim they had once been atheists, their language always gave them away.

My actual quote was:
quote:
I've never met an atheist who became a theist, but I've known a number of theist to atheist conversions. The thing that strikes me is how lonely the decision making process is. Theism is a support network for conversions, and until recently, atheism was so socially unacceptable that there was no such support. I'm jealous, because for many years such a thing as this thread was not available to me.

This was on the first page. Pity no one has any interest in discussing my post from the beginning of this page. I find it much more interesting.
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