posted
For years, I've been accused of twisting, perverting, misquoting, and excusing sections of the Bible in order to fit my own moral code.
I realized recently those accusations are true. My ideas of morals are different from those presented in the Bible, but I always chose to make the Bible fit rather than giving it up. Now that it's come to a point . . . well, I'm more willing to jettison the Bible than my moral beliefs. I know which I prefer.
And yes, I know, you're supposed to change yourself for religion. Which would make sense if I believed the mystical aspects of Christianity.
But I have not done so for quite some time. I simply continued to accept them because I liked the moral code enough (or thought I did) that I decided it was worth holding onto the mysticism.
This came to a head when I realized I was coming to dislike Christianity. Now that I've thought about it, I think I stayed Christian out of habit--I was afraid to let part of myself go. All that's left, I think, is a residual gut fear of Hell. And I'm not sticking with anything out of fear.
This is very strange and very new for me. I've always described myself as Christian as a major part of my identity . . . now I don't know.
I think for a while I will be an angry atheist, which kinda stinks. I'd rather not.
I think I still really like religious people, just not religion specifically.
I think it's nice to gloat at my brother. He's been trying to convert me to atheism these past four years, and yet he had nothing to do with me finally doing so. In fact, sometimes I think I stayed Christian to act as a foil to my brother.
I think the most immediate problem is that I'm 4000 words behind on NaNoWriMo and my novel has a lot of religious themes . . . that I no longer accept.
I think I still like most Judeo-Christian mythology, I'm just not sure I buy it.
I'm very, very scared. A large part of me still believes in Hell. I feel like I'm venturing into the fires here.
But I refuse to let that stop me.
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posted
Joldo, it sounds like organized religion was more of an obstacle to peace for you than a path to it. The way you are describing your Christianity is, honestly, foreign to me and sounds pretty horrifying.
I hope that this choice gives you the freedom to find what works for you.
FWIW, I don't think you are venturing into any fires.
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Your membership card and bi-weekly newsletter, outling the Atheist Agenda, will be in the mail in 4=6 days. Further, you'll get one year of the Liberal Agenda, the Black Agenda, the Gay Agenda newsletters all free. (They're all the same agenda, after all.)
Though you'll have to pay $666 for lifetime membership.
Seriously, though, I understand what you're going through. I went through a lot of the same feelings. The truth is, the worry about hell was significant, and I was CAtholic, where they don't focus on it as much as some other religions.
It'll still linger there, all those memes and ideas, all those worries, and I don't know if I can ever purge them all. The brainwashing runs deep.
But, even if you never succeed in eliminating these things entirely, you can learn to deal with them, over time. Just remember this: You would have gone to Islamic hell anyway if they'd been right, and they had no less evidence for their religion. That sort of thing helps.
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I say this not only with no less evidence than is presented in this world for hell, but also with the advantage that the concept of hell, being one of an infinite number of concepts we could dream of, should require evidence before you believe that one over any of the other equally unlikely magic kingdoms you go to after death.
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: I'm very, very scared. A large part of me still believes in Hell. I feel like I'm venturing into the fires here.
FYI, if you still believe in Hell, you're not an atheist. Just because you no longer belong to an organized religion does not mean you're an atheist. If you're scared of some place that does not exist (IMO) you're not an atheist.
Ha. Well, unfortunately there's no discount. The $666 pricetag is there for aesthetic reasons, after all.
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: A large part of me still believes in Hell. I feel like I'm venturing into the fires here.
Don't kid yourself. When you do venture into the fires, it will be a heck of a lot worse.
quote:A mind not to be changed by place or time. The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n.
Milton, putting words in Lucifer's mouth. I thought it ironically appropriate, and it does rather fit my feelings.
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: I'm very, very scared. A large part of me still believes in Hell. I feel like I'm venturing into the fires here.
FYI, if you still believe in Hell, you're not an atheist. Just because you no longer belong to an organized religion does not mean you're an atheist. If you're scared of some place that does not exist (IMO) you're not an atheist.
My gut believes in Hell. Just as much as it does zombies, vampires, and Idaho.
Intellectually, however, I do not.
The trouble is, a gut belief in vampires only comes out at night to scare you, while a gut belief in Hell can haunt your every thought.
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posted
"FYI, if you still believe in Hell, you're not an atheist. Just because you no longer belong to an organized religion does not mean you're an atheist. If you're scared of some place that does not exist (IMO) you're not an atheist."
It's harder than that, less clear cut.
As he said, it's a part of him that thinks about it. Psychologically, the concept of hell is ingrained in his mind. Ingraine something deep enough, and even if you learn or know it's not true, it'll still give the emotional responses for quite awhile, in some cases forever.
That's the power of repetition on the brain.
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posted
"The trouble is, a gut belief in vampires only comes out at night to scare you, while a gut belief in Hell can haunt your every thought. "
Precisely the problem.
Anyway, you'll find it interesting, as you live life without Christianity, and eventually step far enough away from it to look at it from the outside. It's quite the interesting perspective, at least it seems so to me, who lived from deep within the Christian mindset for the vast majority of my life.
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Ever heard the story of Freud, who, when he finally went to Greece and saw the Parthenon, said to himself "Wow. It really DOES exist!"
Same sort of thing.
'Course, you and I live in Spokane, Ear, right next to Idaho's border, and I know I go over the border occasionally, though I dunno about you.
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Ever heard the story of Freud, who, when he finally went to Greece and saw the Parthenon, said to himself "Wow. It really DOES exist!"
Same sort of thing.
'Course, you and I live in Spokane, Ear, right next to Idaho's border, and I know I go over the border occasionally, though I dunno about you.
More often than I'd like. But seriously Joldo, you do whatever makes you the best human being. If that requires believing in The Great Pumpkin, then so be it!
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quote:And yes, I know, you're supposed to change yourself for religion. Which would make sense if I believed the mystical aspects of Christianity
I am honestly interested in hearing you explain what aspects of Christianity you found mystical. I can't remember off the top of my head which denomination you identified with, but as far as protestantism goes, I feel like Christian mysticism pales in comparison with other major religions. Again I am merely interested in hearing you explain this point more at this point.
As far as the rest of your post, I am glad that you are taking charge of your own belief system. At the same time your post concerns me.
"I think I stayed Christian out of habit--I was afraid to let part of myself go."
"I think it's nice to gloat at my brother. He's been trying to convert me to atheism these past four years, and yet he had nothing to do with me finally doing so. In fact, sometimes I think I stayed Christian to act as a foil to my brother."
"I'm very, very scared. A large part of me still believes in Hell. I feel like I'm venturing into the fires here."
"All that's left, I think, is a residual gut fear of Hell. And I'm not sticking with anything out of fear."
What happened to God in all of this? Christianity for all its complexity is still at it's very core, a system designed to reconcile man with God. A departure from Christianity at least for me would be a departure from that belief system, not necessarily from God. Or is Christianity the only religion you feel could ever explain the concept of God? How much time have you spent examining the other takes on Christianity, to say nothing of other religions?
Much of what I will say now are questions just to think about, but consider them honestly. I do not think I know the answers to any of them. If you wish to answer them here I'd be happy to discuss them with you. Of course I am a believer in Christ, and of course I have a vested interest in helping people believe in him, but I promise my goal is primarily to discuss, not to persuade.
Your reasons for being afraid of your decision is that you may have just taken a step towards hell, are you completely unconcerned with taking a step away from God? I do not think you made this decision lightly, and yet you made it. Is a world bereft of the requirements of Christianity easier to live in? Was it just that Christianity couldn't answer the questions you had? Or was Christianity simply giving you the wrong answers completely?
Since you are giving up Christianity, are you still just as dedicated at being a good person, and seeking the truth? Or will your quest for God end here and now, along with your interest in ever believing in God again?
Are you so certain the Bible is really so wrong? Are you certain your understanding of it was adequate to begin with?
If there is in fact no God, why should anger ever be a part of your outlook on the universe? Were you wrong by the religion you subscribed to? Did they trick you into believing? Do you think the people who told you to believe in the God of the Bible were con men/women with ulterior motives? Are you mad that God would allow to believe in a lie if there even is a God?
You said you at one time liked the moral code of Christianity, what do you think that is? What about it do you dislike now? What was the straw that broke your camel's back?
You said you still like religious people just not religion itself, why is that? What is it about religion you do not like? Could a religion fix the part you don't like and thus make it more true?
I have other questions, but those are the ones I think are important to me. I honestly hope that if this choice suits you better you will follow it, but I also want you to know that we can reject the existence of God but that does not mean he in turn rejects us.
The choice to cease believing in God is not a one way ticket to hell, the choice to abandon goodness is.
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posted
Well, in the hearts of little children who have the sort of parents who think Chick tracts are pretty cool little stories, at least.
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posted
In the hearts of little Dungeons & Dragons players everywhere.
Welcome to the 'club' Joldo.
quote:Your reasons for being afraid of your decision is that you may have just taken a step towards hell, are you completely unconcerned with taking a step away from God?
Your reasons for being afraid are your own. But, if I had to guess, I would say that you are afraid because you've spent a good portion of your life being force-fed the 'threat' that many religions have. When your gut finally catches up with your head, you'll be fine.
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quote:The choice to cease believing in God is not a one way ticket to hell, the choice to abandon goodness is.
I don't want to start anything, but where did Joldo say he was abandoning goodness? Why do you assume that leaving religion goes hand in hand with leaving goodness? (If you do indeed assume that.)
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quote:as far as protestantism goes, I feel like Christian mysticism pales in comparison with other major religions
I don't want to get into it too much, but you guys (since, IIRC, you're a Mormon) have a pretty elaborate baptism ritual for the dead, a fairly extensive "sealing ceremony," and specially-designed underwear that's supposed to protect you from harm.
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quote:The choice to cease believing in God is not a one way ticket to hell, the choice to abandon goodness is.
I don't want to start anything, but where did Joldo say he was abandoning goodness? Why do you assume that leaving religion goes hand in hand with leaving goodness? (If you do indeed assume that.)
I was not assuming that at all. Joldo said he felt that to some degree worried he might be heading for hell because he no longer believes Christianity is right. I was merely saying I do not believe that to be the case.
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quote:as far as protestantism goes, I feel like Christian mysticism pales in comparison with other major religions
I don't want to get into it too much, but you guys (since, IIRC, you're a Mormon) have a pretty elaborate baptism ritual for the dead, a fairly extensive "sealing ceremony," and specially-designed underwear that's supposed to protect you from harm.
Tom: Please reread the word, "protestantism" in the quote. After doing so I respectfully request you edit your post.
I was guessing Joldo was protestant, I base that purely on my memory which I already admitted was not sharp on the matter.
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posted
i feel frustrated with Christianity. but I am not an athiest. I am not sure what I am. Shame there's not a way to go back to Christianity in its purest form.
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posted
Just curious, but what does the purest form of Christianity look like and what keeps you from practicing that?
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: Just curious, but what does the purest form of Christianity look like and what keeps you from practicing that?
I don't know... But frustration with a lot of aspects of mainstream Christianity make me want to run in fear.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Don't Mormons refer to themselves as a protestant faith?
No we do not. Mormons, (and indeed most Christians) classify those churches that followed the Great Reformation movement as Protestants. Churches that sought to reform the Catholic Church or other protestant sects are protestants.
Mormons consider what Joseph Smith did to be a restoration of the church that existed legitimately during and after Jesus' time on earth. As I am sure you know, we believe that legitimate church was completely lost and beyond repair within a few hundred years after Jesus returned to heaven. There was no way to simply take an existing church and fix it, God personally had to restore the authority to recreate His church.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Don't Mormons refer to themselves as a protestant faith?
I've never heard other LDS do so, except by way of mentioning that we're sometimes grouped with Protestants by default.
(This is not counting the many, many, MANY tracts, pamphlets, and books some unkind people have thrown my way about how Mormons are not Protestant, certainly not Christian, and going straight to Hell.)
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Don't Mormons refer to themselves as a protestant faith?
No we do not. Mormons, (and indeed most Christians) classify those churches that followed the Great Reformation movement as Protestants. Churches that sought to reform the Catholic Church or other protestant sects are protestants....
(Without saying which side is correct, but just trying to clarify the issue)
posted
All religions have mystical elements. In Christianity, it's a beard in the sky, a worldwide flood, and other such things.
At a certain point, I realized I believed more in the threat of Hell than the existence of God. That's the essence.
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posted
And the "god in the sky" idea and biblical literalism once again are presented as core Christian doctrine.
Seriously, is there no transfer of learning from one thread to another or are you deliberately persisting in untruths because it suits you?
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quote:Originally posted by 0Megabyte: I say this not only with no less evidence than is presented in this world for hell, but also with the advantage that the concept of hell, being one of an infinite number of concepts we could dream of, should require evidence before you believe that one over any of the other equally unlikely magic kingdoms you go to after death.
Great. So now you're telling me that Disney owns the afterlife?
posted
Just remember, the first rule of atheist doctrine is: There is no atheist doctrine.
quote:FYI, if you still believe in Hell, you're not an atheist.
An irrational fear does not a belief make.
I've never met an atheist who became a theist, but I've known a number of theist to atheist conversions. The thing that strikes me is how lonely the decision making process is. Theism is a support network for conversions, and until recently, atheism was so socially unacceptable that there was no such support. I'm jealous, because for many years such a thing as this thread was not available to me.
quote:I think for a while I will be an angry atheist, which kinda stinks. I'd rather not.
You don't have to be. Remember that you can still converse with theists on their terms. The hard part is that they will rarely return the favor.
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: But I have not done so for quite some time. I simply continued to accept them because I liked the moral code enough (or thought I did) that I decided it was worth holding onto the mysticism.
This came to a head when I realized I was coming to dislike Christianity. Now that I've thought about it, I think I stayed Christian out of habit--I was afraid to let part of myself go. All that's left, I think, is a residual gut fear of Hell. And I'm not sticking with anything out of fear.
I've never personally understood how anyone can read the bible and find a coherent moral structure in it. There really isn't one. The bible (whatever you do believe about it), promotes prejudice, hatred, murder, and sexual discrimination in various ways.
The positive (to my thinking) aspects of Christian ideology are most informed by Augustine of Hippo and the like, people who's philosophies were essentially classical in nature, wrapped in a christian cloak. I've never understood why people would believe in a religious tradition that has already been responsible for the ruination of western society once before. It's like trying to rebuild a bridge that fell down because of a structural flaw, but not fixing the plans to make it more stable. The bible is for me the great barrier that challenges Christians to overcome its mystical, backwards origins and to still manage to find some good in it.
Listening to religion teachers talk about the bible in my high school was like listening to a debate team defend a position given to them as a challenge- the last thing any of them ever wanted to do was talk about the book on its own merits.
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posted
"Just remember, the first rule of atheist doctrine is: There is no atheist doctrine."
It's like Fight Club.
The funny thing is, there are some real fight clubs out there, whose members were inspired by the movie. Some of them are actually composed of devout unmarried Mormon college boys. That's just what I heard. Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: Just remember, the first rule of atheist doctrine is: There is no atheist doctrine.
quote:I think for a while I will be an angry atheist, which kinda stinks. I'd rather not.
You don't have to be. Remember that you can still converse with theists on their terms. The hard part is that they will rarely return the favor.
So true. I stopped being an angry athiest when I realized that I was the lucky one. Today I feel sorry for theists- it being so easy for me to see the transparency of their arguments. I imagine it frustrates some of them more than dealing with more radical athiest types, who think they have a chance of convincing anyone that God doesn't exist. It's a basic assumption that defeats argument; that is why it is still widespread.
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quote:My ideas of morals are different from those presented in the Bible, but I always chose to make the Bible fit rather than giving it up.
What, in your view, do you think the Bible suggests morality should be? The way you've mentioned fear of Hell does not sound a lot of what I consider Christinaity to be. In truth, I would think the idea of doing something solely to avoid Hell is nearly the opposite of what Christ taught.
My view is that Christian morality boils down to two basic ideas: Love God. Love other people. And really those are both two sides of the same coin. The Bible doesn't always seem consistent on this, but the overall story of Christ sure seems to be.
And in truth, most atheists I know typically act in accordance with this Christian ideal - the main difference being they think the coin only has one side.
quote:I feel sorry for theists- it being so easy for me to see the transparency of their arguments.
And this is one spot where I think atheists tend to go wrong - they often think the issue is about which arguments are better. Religion isn't really founded on arguments at all, and neither is atheism.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: And the "god in the sky" idea and biblical literalism once again are presented as core Christian doctrine.
Seriously, is there no transfer of learning from one thread to another or are you deliberately persisting in untruths because it suits you?
No, friend, I know they're not. I was simply using these as examples of what I considered the mystical elements. I said earlier I had stopped believing the mystic elements long ago but went through the motions because I liked the moral system. Someone asked what I meant by the mysticism: I mean all the supernatural that makes its way into Christianity and religion in general.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I've never personally understood how anyone can read the bible and find a coherent moral structure in it. There really isn't one. The bible (whatever you do believe about it), promotes prejudice, hatred, murder, and sexual discrimination in various ways.
That's . . . a lot of what I came to realize.
quote: What, in your view, do you think the Bible suggests morality should be? The way you've mentioned fear of Hell does not sound a lot of what I consider Christinaity to be. In truth, I would think the idea of doing something solely to avoid Hell is nearly the opposite of what Christ taught.
My view is that Christian morality boils down to two basic ideas: Love God. Love other people. And really those are both two sides of the same coin. The Bible doesn't always seem consistent on this, but the overall story of Christ sure seems to be.
And in truth, most atheists I know typically act in accordance with this Christian ideal - the main difference being they think the coin only has one side.
That is mostly my moral system. And I used to say the Bible boiled down to that. Now I think I was just lying to myself. I feel like it doesn't match my moral system, and if I choose one to toss out, well . . .
quote: And this is one spot where I think atheists tend to go wrong - they often think the issue is about which arguments are better. Religion isn't really founded on arguments at all, and neither is atheism.
That is rather the issue. Religion is founded on faith, even down to the moral codes. There are numerous instructions--things that you're told not to do. You're almost never told why not. At most, you're told it's because it's abominable. That's no longer enough for me. It doesn't sound like free will--it sounds like "Do what I tell you".
At a certain point, the Bible stopped sounding like the word of God to me.
More recently, it stopped sounding like the words of many enlightened, good, and kind men over the centuries.
Now it begins to sound (to me, at least) like the jumbled and incoherent ideas of various madmen, dreamers, historians, storytellers, and power-hungry tyrants. I used to think when people used scripture to defend their power that they were twisting it or justify another's disenfranchisement. Now I think they're interpretting a lot of it correctly.
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quote:Now it begins to sound (to me, at least) like the jumbled and incoherent ideas of various madmen, dreamers, historians, storytellers, and power-hungry tyrants. I used to think when people used scripture to defend their power that they were twisting it or justify another's disenfranchisement. Now I think they're interpretting a lot of it correctly.
Could you be so kind to elaborate?
quote:All religions have mystical elements. In Christianity, it's a beard in the sky, a worldwide flood, and other such things.
Come now, if there is mysticism to Christianity surely you can find an instance Christians all agree on. How is a worldwide flood mystical? Do you know of some sect that believes their leader can conjure up another one?
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posted
*sigh* By mysticism, I mean supernatural beliefs without substantiation that often defy evidence. Such as the belief in the past existence of a worldwide flood.
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quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: How is a worldwide flood mystical? Do you know of some sect that believes their leader can conjure up another one?
Well, a worldwide flood seems very unlikely when there isn't enough water to do so.
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But seriously Joldo, you do whatever makes you the best human being. If that requires believing in The Great Pumpkin, then so be it!
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