quote: Atheists join religions in holiday display The group's tree at the county courthouse joins a Christian creche, a Jewish menorah, and the Chamber of Commerce tree.
By Walter F. Naedele
The head of Atheists Alliance International plans to put up a tree this weekend on the lawn at the Chester County Courthouse to stand beside three traditional holiday displays there.
The 20-foot tree will be hung with copies of covers of books, including "Why I Am Not A Christian," "Why I Am Not a Muslim" and "Judaism Beyond God."
This addition to last year's three holiday displays is sponsored by the Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia which, its president Margaret Downey said, is "welcoming to agnostics, atheists, humanists, skeptics, rationalists of all kinds."
In addition to the obvious atheistic book titles, the tree also has covers of the Bible and the Koran.
I live in Philly, so the whole thing is terrible amusing. I like the idea of this less-traditional tree being added.
posted
It would have been nice if the group could have found some more positive symbol of atheism to celebrate instead of just knocking the other groups.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: It would have been nice if the group could have found some more positive symbol of atheism to celebrate instead of just knocking the other groups.
Me, or the Freethough Society of Greater Philadelphia?
I'm not knocking anybody else. I just find it amusing that people are upset over it. And I don't think the FSGP is knocking anybody else either.
If you mean the title of the thread, it's meant entirely in jest.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: It would have been nice if the group could have found some more positive symbol of atheism to celebrate instead of just knocking the other groups.
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: It would have been nice if the group could have found some more positive symbol of atheism to celebrate instead of just knocking the other groups.
agreed.
OK, I honestly don't see how this is knocking the other groups. Please explain. Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: It would have been nice if the group could have found some more positive symbol of atheism to celebrate instead of just knocking the other groups.
Me, or the Freethough Society of Greater Philadelphia?
I'm not knocking anybody else. I just find it amusing that people are upset over it. And I don't think the FSGP is knocking anybody else either.
If you mean the title of the thread, it's meant entirely in jest.
The group that is putting up their display. It would have been nice to come up with a more positive symbol instead of "Why I am not X" books. I think that it is good that people are included, it is just unfortunate that the opportunity is being used just to say something negative about the others rather than saying something positive about themselves.
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posted
I think just a nice tree with a plaque identifying the group would have sufficed. Pro-atheism books are not exactly "symbolic" of atheism in the first place.
This sounds more like an Atheist Book Club tree than an atheist tree, though I guess if they are trying to be evangelical then they are kind of at a disadvantage, not having any miraculous stories to share like the other guys. Gotta fall back on books that more explicitly state why the other stories are wrong.
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quote:The group that is putting up their display. It would have been nice to come up with a more positive symbol instead of "Why I am not X" books.
The new testament could reasonably be titled "Why I am not Jewish", couldn't it? Most religions only imply everyone else is wrong, but the message is still there. I don't know if being more explicit about it is necessarily a *bad* thing.
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Javert, I think she means instead of putting up books like Why I'm not a Christian(which I love by the way), it would've been cool if they had put up books not specifically written against other religions. Lets stop defining ourselves this way.
Wouldn't it have been cooler if they had covered the tree with covers of A Brief History of Time, The Selfish Gene, How the Mind Works, Guns Germs & Steel, Walden, great philosophical works(religiously inspired or not), etc...
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MattP, do you think that the emphasis was on promoting their own ideas or tearing down the beliefs of others?
There is a difference. What is atheism offering other than being anti-the other groups?
Showcase that. Celebrate that.
edited to add: As the New Testament was mostly written by Jews (who identified as Jews), not really.
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quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: You're confused as to how "Why I am not a Muslim" and "Why I am not a Christian" is knocking other groups?
It does make the whole enterprise look it has nothing positive to say and no purpose but to tear down other people.
That can't be okay with the atheists here, right?
You assume the negative.
These books are entitled "Why I am not", they aren't entitled "You shouldn't be X, and all people who are X are evil and stupid!"
You may be seeing that, but it's not there.
Granted, I have not read the books, so if they do say that I will apologize.
I see it as an invitation to the religious majority to educate themselves on the non-believing minority.
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MattP, can you see the difference between "I believe and reverence X" and "This is why I don't believe Y"?
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I can see going with books overall as the theme, but the "why I'm NOT" titles are pretty inherently negative. I'm sure one could find some non-theist philosophy books or something that would be more in the vein of positive humanism than trying to negate other beliefs.
Personally, if I was called upon to decide the decorations for an atheist tree, I would have filled it with monkeys!
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: You're confused as to how "Why I am not a Muslim" and "Why I am not a Christian" is knocking other groups?
It does make the whole enterprise look it has nothing positive to say and no purpose but to tear down other people.
That can't be okay with the atheists here, right?
You assume the negative.
These books are entitled "Why I am not", they aren't entitled "You shouldn't be X, and all people who are X are evil and stupid!"
You may be seeing that, but it's not there.
Granted, I have not read the books, so if they do say that I will apologize.
I see it as an invitation to the religious majority to educate themselves on the non-believing minority.
I understand your point but let's be real. I find it hard to believe that these people were somehow ignorant of the fact that displaying these books would tick off others Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
I like Strider's suggestion too, but there is nothing specifically atheistic about those books. Some of them make atheistic arguments and others can be interpreted to support atheism, but books that are strictly about atheism, by necessity, address perceived flaws in religious thinking.
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Possible Positive Things to hang from the Atheist Christmas Display.
10) Gay Pride symbols 9) $$$ Signs (oops, the Chamber of Commerce tree may already have those.) 8) Fish with legs and other pro-Evolutionary things. 7) Symbols showing Fish with legs--Might smell less than hanging the actual fish. 6) Plant the freaking tree and take a stand against deforestation. 5) Test Tubes and other Scientific Paraphanelia 4) Stuffed animals aka Teddy Bears, with divine names. 3) Unlocked manacles and un-tied chains. 2) The Harry Potter Collection 1) "Peace" "Joy" and "Love" should be hung from the tree.
Of course, I know Joy's family wouldn't really mind, Peace and Love's families would really complain and ruin the whole effect.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Javert, I think she means instead of putting up books like Why I'm not a Christian(which I love by the way), it would've been cool if they had put up books not specifically written against other religions. Lets stop defining ourselves this way.
Wouldn't it have been cooler if they had covered the tree with covers of A Brief History of Time, The Selfish Gene, How the Mind Works, Guns Germs & Steel, Walden, great philosophical works(religiously inspired or not), etc...
To be fair, those are just the book titles that were used in the article. I don't know all the books that were included. I'm currently searching for the full list.
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quote:Originally posted by Threads: I understand your point but let's be real. I find it hard to believe that these people were somehow ignorant of the fact that displaying these books would tick off others
And it can help to bring attention to WHY it ticks other people off, and maybe help them understand why they SHOULDN'T be ticked off.
I imagine the menorah ticks a number of people off too. Does that mean they shouldn't have put it up?
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: It would have been nice if the group could have found some more positive symbol of atheism to celebrate instead of just knocking the other groups.
Considering we know nothing about the books besides the title, I'd say it's premature to assume that they're just "knocking other groups."
More importantly, A) Those weren't the only books on the tree, just the ones the article deigned to mention (surprise surprise!) I'd be pretty shocked if The Origin of Species wasn't on that tree. Others might see that book as offensive too.
B) Because atheism is a negative position, it's inevitable that we'll have to explain why we haven't taken the positive position. It often seems to me that no matter how gently we might possibly put it, rather large groups of people will be offended. Atheists are still working to find a tone that respects others' beliefs while still accurately expressing who we are. All in all, I think we've done a pretty good job in a short amount of time.
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While driving into town I passed an Evangelical church. In big words it had a sign: "Put Christ back in Christ-mas please"
Next door was a Catholic Church. It had as sign that read "Put the Mass back in ChristMass please."
Next to them was the Mall. Out front, in big letters was the plea, "Put the $ back in Christma$$, PLEASE!!!!!!"
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quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: MattP, can you see the difference between "I believe and reverence X" and "This is why I don't believe Y"?
I guess it's just a matter of judging a book by its cover. I don't know the content of those books, but the content of a book "Why I am not a Christian" and "Why I am an atheist" may be very similar, just as the content of "Why I am a Christian" and "Why I am not an Atheist" may be.
As I mentioned earlier, *I* wouldn't have put those book covers up myself, though I might have listed them on a placard below or next to the tree that included a brief blurb about atheism and a reading list for people that were interested in learning more.
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Folks being honest with themselves is good. And considering how seldom atheists admit that their beliefs are purely religious...
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I totally agree that it's a silly thing to get pissed off about, but it's not very constructive to intentionally piss people off about it either.
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Folks being honest with themselves is good. And considering how seldom atheists admit that their beliefs are purely religious...
Very funny aspectre. An organization practicing its freedom of speech does not equal religion.
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Folks being honest with themselves is good. And considering how seldom atheists admit that their beliefs are purely religious...
I'm tempted to say your post is borderline trolling.
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quote:I don't know anyone who is ticked off by a menorah or why they would be.
I've seen some eye-rolling, but no ticked-offedness. The eye rolls were caused by disdain for the political correctness of representing multiple religions in a setting where only Christianity belonged, or something like that.
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: I like Strider's suggestion too, but there is nothing specifically atheistic about those books . Some of them make atheistic arguments and others can be interpreted to support atheism, but books that are strictly about atheism, by necessity, address perceived flaws in religious thinking.
good. As an atheist my agenda has never been to promote "not believing in god". I feel we should be out there promoting rationality. those books might not promote atheism, but they're what led me to becoming an atheist, and they represent the principles I believe in.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Javert, I think she means instead of putting up books like Why I'm not a Christian(which I love by the way), it would've been cool if they had put up books not specifically written against other religions. Lets stop defining ourselves this way.
Wouldn't it have been cooler if they had covered the tree with covers of A Brief History of Time, The Selfish Gene, How the Mind Works, Guns Germs & Steel, Walden, great philosophical works(religiously inspired or not), etc...
Or the Golden Compass! Cover it with little armor bears and Nicole Kidman looking eerie and hot!
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Uppity atheists, always wanting to express their views. Why can't they keep that filthy stuff at home where the rest of us good, upstanding folks don't have to look at it.
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The people who get disturbed by seeing a menorah (wrongly in my opinion) are bothered because they don't want to see other people's celebrations honoured.
Do you think the display was about being included in the celebration or about being disturbed by the celebrations of others? If the former, the choice of symbols should reflect that.
MightyCow, so far it seems (from the little information available) that the view that is being expressed is "your views suck". I can understand why this could be offensive.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: MightyCow, so far it seems (from the little information available) that the view that is being expressed is "your views suck". I can understand why this could be offensive.
I think that's a false assumption. To me it looks like the message is "We disagree, and here's why."
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Can your beliefs not be expressed except as a negation of other people's beliefs?
This is the problem with a display. All this group can do is rain on the parades of others. Can't it build a float instead?
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I'm not assuming that. That has been the only information provided. Do you have any further information?
"We disagree" is still just negative. Assert what you have to offer instead of just, "we're not them."
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: The people who get disturbed by seeing a menorah (wrongly in my opinion) are bothered because they don't want to see other people's celebrations honoured.
I dunno... I remain a little weirded out after learning what a menorah is actually used to celebrate after learning about it in this thread. link
quote: The fanatics won. The Jews who wanted to be Greek by culture and Jewish only by ethnicity got their naked heinies handed to them. And I wonder, as I do every year, at the irony that has so many secular and assimilated Jews lighting candles for eight days in order to commemorate the victory of people who would have stuck a sword through them in a heartbeat. ... Hanukkah was about an all out war against Hellenists and Hellenism. And not a metaphorical war, either, but a serious bloodbath.
I mean, previously I already knew about the miracle itself in a very limited sense, just not the surrounding historical background.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I'm not assuming that. That has been the only information provided. Do you have any further information?
"We disagree" is still just negative. Assert what you have to offer instead of just, "we're not them."
Still looking for the list. As soon as I find it, I'll post it here.
That being said...scientific inquiry, secular humanism, skepticism...these are just a few things 'we' offer. (I'm not a member of the group, though I wouldn't object to supporting them.)
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quote:"We disagree" is still just negative. Assert what you have to offer instead of just, "we're not them."
But atheism, by itself, is just a negation or, more specifically, an absence. There's nothing to say in promotion of atheism that isn't potentially negative sounding to a theist.
What I think you want is a humanist tree or something of that sort, but this is apparently an atheist organization, not a humanist one.
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kmbboots: I think you're coloring this heavily with your own views. The Atheists aren't protesting the religious symbols. They aren't trying to get the other trees removed. They just want their own tree with their own stuff on it.
Obviously, you aren't happy with the decorations they picked for their own tree, but they're not inherently more negative than any other of the religious symbols.
You can look at the Christmas tree next to the menorah and interpret it as "Hey, we're not Jewish!" or you can interpret it as, "This is our belief, which can support itself next to the beliefs of others."
For people who aren't familiar with atheism, it seems to me that they might indeed be interested in why atheists aren't other religions, since they would believe that their religion is the default view.
It is because religious people are often less than willing to accept atheism as a valid viewpoint that atheists first must justify why they aren't some religious faith before they can get on to the rest of the stuff.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: MightyCow, it is a question of emphasis...
I don't see how you can say that when we only have the names of three of the books that were on the tree. We have no idea what their emphasis was given the information available to us in this thread.
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Also, Javert did entitle the thread "Let the War on Christmas Begin!" which kind of signals hostile intent. I recognize it was probably a tongue-in-cheek reference to what he anticipates the response of us self-righteous religionists will be, but nonetheless, it is not particularly conducive to viewing the tree as a constructive symbol of atheism.
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So, really, you have nothing to offer except your desire to knock the beliefs of others?
I think that Javert has a better idea. Find symbols of those things and celebrate them.
The things I celebrate about atheism, when put into sound bites, might sound more offensive than "Why I am not a Christian."
I don't know that atheism, by itself, is something to be promoted in isolation. I think it's much better presented wrapped up in humanism or any other positive atheistic philosophy.
Atheism is not about symbols and metaphor. Where The Christian has a nativity scene, the atheist has a book called "Why I am not Jewish". It's the same message, just the atheist doesn't have any symbolism to wrap around theirs - they just tell the message.
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The atheists want to celebrate the fact that they're not religious. Being non-religious is positive Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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