quote: Hanukkah, O Hanukka The festival of light The flames of our fanaticism Still are burning bright ... Hanukkah, O Hanukkah A savage celebration Of blood and death and war That saved the soul of our nation
But seriously, of course I don't. I just said I found it weird given the historical context. Its one thing to celebrate a book with a title such as "Why I am not a Christian", I figure that the writer was probably just happy about their freedom. That someone later went and *maybe* used just the title to poke someone doesn't really ruin it for me. Edit to add: The original event is also relatively toothless in terms of consequences
However, to use a symbol that was originally associated with a celebration about war and death and then bring that into a modern celebration while forgetting about the historical context, I just find that weird. (Alternatively, if you don't forget about the historical context, all power to you )
Sort of like using the Santa Claus symbol while ignoring the whole Black Peter thing.
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quote:Since Christmas (and many of the other holidays associated with this season) have roots in ancient winter solstice celebrations, I would think that the science of astronomy and perhaps space exploration would be an appropriate rallying point for athiests during this season.
Rabbit, I love that idea. I would love to establish some kind of conventions around a Non-Religious Solstice Celebration which religious and non-religous people can participate in alike, and I think that it works very well considering the association of the stars with Christmas, and wider than that- light in darkness. In fact, a lighted tree works on many levels and is non-objectionable.
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I've actually suggested to Niki that if she wants to give me Christmas present, she should instead give me a solstice present. The idea of celebrating the solstices and the equinoxes has great appeal to me.
However, I do celebrate Christmas in a secular way, and enjoy it, even if on some level it makes me a little uncomfortable.
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I've met a few homophobic atheists, too. The few of them who've been able to rationalize their position have done so based on (IMO, irrational) reproductive concerns and a concern that society requires gender roles.
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quote:Well, putting up an atheist tree in a time where people generally don't put up trees might be weird.
That's a pretty poor answer, Javert. If the atheists are correct, then the choice of time of when to commemorate...atheism, or humanism, pick your -ism, is completely arbitrary in and of itself.
So, let's say 1:12 odds. Unless the timing is picked not as a standalone concern, but rather picked so as to be directly concerned with something else.
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Well, nobody gets the day off and gives presents on September 3rd. If the atheists want to join in a secular celebration of what has largely become a secular winter celebration in America, it's silly to do it another time of year.
On the other hand, if I get an extra holiday out of the deal, I vote we pick our own High Non-Holy Day of Celebration and Awesomeness some time in early September. There's not a lot going on there, but the weather's cooled off a bit Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Well, nobody gets the day off and gives presents on September 3rd. If the atheists want to join in a secular celebration of what has largely become a secular winter celebration in America, it's silly to do it another time of year.
A significant part of the reason that Christmas is when it is.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Well, nobody gets the day off and gives presents on September 3rd. If the atheists want to join in a secular celebration of what has largely become a secular winter celebration in America, it's silly to do it another time of year.
Well, excuse me if I missed it, but I don't think anyone's arguing against atheists celebrating Christmas.
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quote:Originally posted by The Flying Dracula Hair:
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Well, nobody gets the day off and gives presents on September 3rd. If the atheists want to join in a secular celebration of what has largely become a secular winter celebration in America, it's silly to do it another time of year.
Well, excuse me if I missed it, but I don't think anyone's arguing against atheists celebrating Christmas.
And I do. I celebrate the secular holiday that we've turned Christmas into over the years. Which, I think, is one of the good things that have come from making it a national holiday, even if it was wrong to do it in the first place.
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quote:Well, excuse me if I missed it, but I don't think anyone's arguing against atheists celebrating Christmas.
I hear lots of arguments against atheists celebrating Christmas.
Every time someone complains, "Its Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays" they are arguing against it.
Every time someone chants, "Put Christ back in Christmas" they are arguing against it.
Every time that someone blocks my view of the community Christmas tree with a Cross or a Nativity scene, they are arguing against it.
quote:Its the most wonderful time, of the year--if your a Christian. But not if your a Jew Or Islamic, boo-hoo Or an Athiest, dear.... Its the most wonderful time, the Most Wonderful Time, The Most Wonderful Time--Of The Year If your a Christian.
posted
Whether or not your post is right, Dan_Raven, depends entirely on whether one views Christmas as a secular, or religious, holiday.
By this curious logic, Independance Day is actually celebrating, I dunno, pyrotechnics, beer, and barbecue. Easter celebrates colored boiled eggs.
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quote:By this curious logic, Independance Day is actually celebrating, I dunno, pyrotechnics, beer, and barbecue. Easter celebrates colored boiled eggs.
Exactly! What the holiday originally represented and what is actually celebrated has diverged significantly. Many people *do* treat the 4th of July as a celebration of beer, bbq, and fireworks and easter a celebration of bunnies, chicks, and hidden candies.
I think it's great these holidays have all morphed into something which still *can* be celebrated according to their original purpose, but which can have a much broader and inclusive non-religious celebration as well.
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My atheist friends (whose whole families are atheist) celebrate Christmas. It's a great family bonding holiday and an overall fun day even if you aren't Christian.
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quote:Exactly! What the holiday originally represented and what is actually celebrated has diverged significantly. Many people *do* treat the 4th of July as a celebration of beer, bbq, and fireworks and easter a celebration of bunnies, chicks, and hidden candies.
Well, no, not exactly. Celebrations are subjective. You can't just say, "This is what is really being celebrated," particularly when you're far from an objective observer. I could as easily say that people celebrate Christ-whether they know it or not-by giving gifts to others.
There are just a general set of things people do when they're celebrating. Gathering together and cooking large quantities of otherwise difficult-to-prepare food is one such way. It doesn't mean all celebrations in which this is done are celebrations about doing that.
A wedding isn't really a celebration of a union of two people, it's really a celebration of fancy cakes, pretty clothes, nice settings, and lots of flowers. Funerals aren't really there to publicly mourn and honor the dead, they're actually about wearing lots of mournful colors, getting florists some extra work to do, and admiring funerary carpentry.
Intent does matter. It doesn't trump all, but it makes a difference.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: They have not morphed for all of us. That is the tricky area to negotiate.
No doubt. Easter is somber for very many people and Christmas is a truly a celebration of Christ's birth, but what these holidays meen, in the aggregate, to the population at large has definitely morphed over time. Even for many Christians, Christmas has become a largely secular time, with an hour or two at church now matched by weeks of shopping and otherwise engaging in the commercial and non-religious aspects of the holiday season.
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quote:Intent does matter. It doesn't trump all, but it makes a difference.
I think it does matter too, but when a 4th of July passes with me giving little thought to the original purpose of the day because I'm so caught up in the family campout, bbq, and fireworks, was that holiday really, for me, about celebrating independence? I would like it to be and I think our freedom is an important thing to celebrate, but holidays to which we attach festivity tend, over time, to become more and more about the festivity.
This, of course, doesn't prevent people from celebrating the original purpose of the holiday, but in a way that mask of secular festivity provides a means of including everyone in the holiday regardless of whether they share the beliefs of those who created the holiday in the first place. I think that's a good thing.
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Easter somber? I had not noticed that. The triduum is pretty somber, but, in my various Christian experiences, Easter itself has always been pretty celebratory.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Easter somber? I had not noticed that. The triduum is pretty somber, but, in my various Christian experiences, Easter itself has always been pretty celebratory.
Not somber in a bad way, but easter services I've been to have been somewhat more somber than other services and the music tends to be down-tempo. That's sort of neither here nor there though, the point was that I agree that there are people who do still recognize the original purpose of the holiday.
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Oh, I know. Just surprised. I have sung a lot of pretty darn up tempo Easters! Maybe it is an evangelical thing?
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I was young. I've also been to several other denominations. So, I could be misremembering which was which. I could also be misremembering entirely. Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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Matt, I think you might be remembering Good Friday and/or Lenten services, which are generally somber. Easter Sunday itself is much more likely to be joyous.
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That could be. I've been in the Mormon community so long that I'd completely forgotten about services not held on Sunday morning.
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Well, Easter is an older celebration and is still more religious. In my experience it is more religiously significant. And the days before are very somber. All that could add up to a more "somber" recollection from a young child.
No matter. Just curious.
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If atheists want to put up decorations in a group display, they need a holiday. There's Jewish stuff for Hanukkah and Christian stuff for Christmas. If atheists want their own display, they need to create their own holiday. They can celebrate secular Christmas or secular Hanukkah if they like, but I don't see why they should have a separate display, just because they want to be contrary.
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The Christians did a pretty good job of co-opting every major pagan celebration, be it calendar-based or themed. This was not accidental, but it does mean that there's not a lot of room out there for catchy new holidays (by design). Perhaps atheists could create Zombie Ninja Pirate Day some time in early September...?
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Well...I guess we could co-opt Talk Like a Pirate Day from the Pastafarians(FSM) - it's on the 19th of September IIRC.
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I suppose atheists could do worse than pirates for branding. Maybe if we also got Keira Knightly naked?
Hm. We could celebrate all the good things about being atheists, like tasteful porn and alcoholic beverages and barbecued ribs.
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My mother in law (who is divorced) tried to argue this year that my husband shouldn't spend time with his father on Christmas day because his father is Chinese and so it isn't like Christmas means anything to him anyway. Of course, she isn't Christian, so her argument isn't that it is a Christian holiday, but more that it is an American holiday.
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I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas wholeheartedly, because I and my family are culturally Christian. Christmas, even without Christ, is a wonderful celebration (imo) of light, life, togetherness, plenty and giving. Its rich history of a variety of winter celebrations only makes it more interesting and important to me.
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Yes, Christmas and giving don't have to be limited to Christians. Giving is a great practice that makes the world such a better place, and it's nice to reserve a day, religious or otherwise, to celebrate by giving.
The only darn spoiler of the whole fiasco is the fact that the commercial market has to step in and take advantage of a good spirit for the sake of greed.
Maybe this year, I'll buy nothing for anyone else that I saw on TV. Just to present an interesting counterpart to the "China-free year of buying" stories that you hear about.
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No, I have Jewish friends who celebrate Christmas, they just don't celebrate Christ. They are nonetheless adapting a spirit of giving, and I can't begrudge them for that. They can celebrate just giving, but I'll say my Christmas will commemorate the birth of Christ. It's the commercial market that should be limited.
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I wasn't meaning to imply in my post that a non-Christian can't celebrate Christmas, just that I found it a bit off for a non-Christian to claim who can value Christmas, or specifically that a Chinese man (who lived in the US for 30 years) can not value the holiday.
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My wife's family celebrates Christmas Eve by getting together and singing Christmas carols. In recent years (being like, the last 20 years or so) we've been increasingly joined by our jewish friends, who have brought Chanukah songs, and then other jewish songs to be added to the mix.
We aren't celebrating giving, we're celebrating togetherness, and the willingness to share the joyous aspects of our cultures and heritage.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: A wedding isn't really a celebration of a union of two people, it's really a celebration of fancy cakes, pretty clothes, nice settings, and lots of flowers.
posted
A wedding isn't a celebration OF cakes, clothes, and flowers, but it is very often a celebration WITH cakes, clothes, and flowers. Let us not forget the crucial preposition here.
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And in those cases where considerably more time, energy, and money is spent on the grand event than in preparing for the marriage it is supposed to begin, what exactly is being celebrated? I am not forgetting the preposition. I am saying that it is quite clear that some celebrants do.
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You know, I don't believe that. Setting aside that we can't know what's in someone's heart and so maybe such a judgment is unfair, I think even those who care little for the other person or the future and are addicted to the flowers and cake are not actually valuing the flowers and the cake. Maybe they are instead thrilled by the chance to be queen for a day, or thrilled to be given something that seems to be a prize for them. Maybe it makes they think they won, or maybe they think all the hoopla is a symbol that they matter in the world.
While I certainly think attention must be paid to the marriage, I can understand the...desire the touch the stars, the desire to feel like you matter, the desire to win or make a mark. Most people won't be in the news or win a prize anyone will ever care about or score a perfect bowling game or be President or have a ticker tape parade thrown in their honor, and a lot more people have a desire for that than ever achieve it. My guess is those who gets wrapped up in the trappings of the biggest party starring them that will ever exist don't care about the cake nearly as much as they care about...self-actualization.
It's one lousy way to do it, but I really don't fault those that long for it. It's amazing what the desire to stand out and win will drive people to achieve. I think the materialistic phenomena of ill-thought-out wedding bashes is a darker manifestation of that same drive.
Not great, but not about the invitations.
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quote:While I certainly think attention must be paid to the marriage, I can understand the...desire the touch the stars, the desire to feel like you matter, the desire to win or make a mark. Most people won't be in the news or win a prize anyone will ever care about or score a perfect bowling game or be President or have a ticker tape parade thrown in their honor, and a lot more people have a desire for that than ever achieve it. My guess is those who gets wrapped up in the trappings of the biggest party starring them that will ever exist don't care about the cake nearly as much as they care about...self-actualization.
That's just about the worst definition of self-actualization I've ever heard.
Self-actualization is an internal state where you are deeply involved and engaged in what you are doing and what you are doing is an extention of how you are and something that pushes you towards growth.
It is most definitely not being the belle of the ball. What you are describing is a running away from who you are and embracing external fame and internal fantasy.
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