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Author Topic: Judeo-Christian polytheism?
MattP
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Ron, your real name is just as meaningful to me as Threads' handle is. I'm not sure how he's "hiding" in any meaningful way by using a handle here.
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Ron Lambert
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Matt, I am sure you are a very intelligent person. (I am just wondering if you will disagree with that statement too.)
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mr_porteiro_head
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[Roll Eyes]
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MattP
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I have no idea whether you are sure of that or not, sorry.
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Starsnuffer
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
"...people only have to think the world is ending and make fools of themselves a few times before it starts becoming hilarious."

Man, that was funny.

I've always wondered, how do you come back from some thing like that? What do you say to people the week or two after you've sold everything and gone to sit on top of a hill with the rest of your little group of crazies?

Heh. yeah. It would be even MORE hilarious/ironic though if tomorrow the apocalypse came and I stepped outside and thought "wow I sure wish I'd listened to Ron."
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MattP
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I'm wondering how this impending end of the world thing jibes with Ron's claims about belief in evolution waning within a generation. Does that mean we've still got 20 years or so?
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
I feel it shows I am willing to stand behind what I say.

Just as long as it costs less than $200 [Wink] link
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MightyCow
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When discussions start to go like this, it really make me wish God would just take his chosen people up to heaven already so the rest of us don't have to listen to them any more [Wink]
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Scott R
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You'd still have to listen to people like Ron, MC.

Sorry.

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Lisa
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Heh.
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Javert
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"God already did take his chosen people to heaven. Two people went missing. No one noticed." *


*Anyone remember where this quote is from? I can't find it.

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Dagonee
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From this thread:

quote:
You guys like to jump on anything I say probably because I am so articulate and always give you a good fight, and you enjoy it. Go on, admit it.
quote:
Matt, I am sure you are a very intelligent person. (I am just wondering if you will disagree with that statement too.)
Implying that Matt is only disagreeing with the previous post because Ron posted it.

quote:
Lisa, you do not have faith in the inspiration of your own Scriptures. You will say different, that you have SOME faith, in VARYING degrees of inspiration. And that is exactly what I meant by unbelief. God inspired your Scriptures, and they are a lot more valuable than you seem to know.
Lisa's disagreement with Ron about translations stem from her lack of faith.

From another thread:

quote:
Pooka, it seems to me that like Roman Catholics, Mormons in general are not well acquainted with their own church's actual teachings.
Those denying that Mormons teach that Jesus was a Lord of Kolob are simply ignorant (oh, and there's no need to post any evidence that they actually think that before calling them ignorant).

quote:
You would be well advised to exercise better self-discipline, and not let your conceit about your own opinions do your talking.
It's my conceit that causes me to reach a different conclusion about evolution than Ron does.

quote:
In my view you are the most cultic and fanatical and pitiable sort of brainwashed "true believers" of all, with your bondage to your cherished theory of evolution.
Fanaticism and brainwashing are the reason many people believe in evolution.

quote:
Ever since the court case in Kansas where a judge let himself be swayed by the mainstream majority and ruled that Intelligent Design was not science
It was mainstream opinion swaying him, not reasoned analysis that led to the ruling.

quote:
If this were not true, he would have recognized that the scientific basis for Intelligent Design is far better than for evolution, because that is the factual reality that anyone who honestly evaluates the evidence for himself will agree.
Anyone who believes evolution is scientifically sound has not evaluated the evidence honestly.

What do all these quotes have in common? They assign motive or defect to those who deign to disagree with Ron's pronouncements on a given subject. Anyone who can't see the truth in what Ron is saying is either being dishonest, duped, or brainwashed. Or they haven't looked at the evidence. There's no room for simple error, or doubt, or for intelligent people to have reached a different conclusion.

The pattern is frighteningly clear at this point.

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Noemon
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Nice summation, Dag; thanks for taking the time to make that post.
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Bokonon
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BTW, I'd like to apologize for my pre-bedtime post last night, Ron. It seemed funnier at the time, but then all sorts of stupid ideas tend to do so right before you go to sleep. It turned out to be out-of-bounds; I'd certainly never say that sort of thing to your face, so I shouldn't do it here.

I tend not to post in threads that get like this, as I feel I can only lower the signal-to-noise of it, and I hold myself to a higher standard of communicating, especially on Hatrack. My post is one more reason why.

I'm sorry Ron, for the needless insult I made.

-Bok

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:
Originally posted by Shanna:
People have been anticipating the End of Days since Jesus died. I'm sure someone thought it would happen within the week.

Jesus himself thought it would happen within the lifetime of his disciples.
What copy of the Bible are you reading, it seems far different then the one I've got, could you send me a copy? Or I suppose you could just cite where Jesus said such a thing.

edit:

Ron: I've yet to insult you personally, but you have yet to own up to your comment that Mormons do not know their own doctrine in light of the fact you made a statement that is erroneous. Whether you acknowledge it or not, it won't bother me, but playing the condescending, "Oh Lord forgive them, for they know not what they do" martyr act gets tiresome.

The conversation has gotten very convoluted, is there a point you would like to rollback to Ron?

[ December 10, 2007, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
What do you say to people the week or two after you've sold everything and gone to sit on top of a hill with the rest of your little group of crazies?
My great-great-granduncle on my mother's side did this. He was a Lithuanian nobleman who believed that the world was going to end, so he sold all his possessions and moved to Israel with a bunch of Germans in the late 1800s. When the world failed to end, many (if not most) of them -- including him -- concluded that it was their piety that had spared everyone else. Apparently this made him fairly insufferable, especially once he returned to his family and demanded that they feed and shelter him as compensation for his sacrifice.
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El JT de Spang
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
The world, on a large scale, has a history of pretty much not ending.

*snort*

Also, Ron, this is for you. Hang it somewhere prominent -- you've earned it.

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Javert Hugo
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Ron, are you okay? I've never noticed you before, but between this and some other threads, it seems like you're saying anything it takes in order to get people to dislike and think little of you. Is something going on?
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Rakeesh
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You know, talking with (or at in some cases) Ron has reminded me of one of my favorite movies, even though with me that doesn't mean much since I've got dozens. Anyway, the movie is Malcolm X.

At some point in the film, Malcolm X is questioned regarding his expressed contempt and enmity with white people. (I'm very loosely paraphrasing here) He basically responds that the white man is in no position to insist on forgiveness, kindness, tolerance, or respect from the black man, due to the numerous crimes perpetrated by one race against the other.

He's got a point. And while I don't buy into the idea that a single member of a wider group, particularly one defined by congenital traits, can be either blamed or praised for the sins or virtues of the wider group...Ron, you're talking an awful lot about Christians as a group, and Jews as a group. So the point still applies: Christians are in no position to insist on mutual kindness and understanding and friendliness from Jews. We Christians as a group have far too much history, much of it recent, of really sticking it to the Jews to insist on that. If there's anything to be insisted upon, it's they that are in the position to insist on things from us.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
He's got a point. And while I don't buy into the idea that a single member of a wider group, particularly one defined by congenital traits, can be either blamed or praised for the sins or virtues of the wider group...Ron, you're talking an awful lot about Christians as a group, and Jews as a group. So the point still applies: Christians are in no position to insist on mutual kindness and understanding and friendliness from Jews. We Christians as a group have far too much history, much of it recent, of really sticking it to the Jews to insist on that. If there's anything to be insisted upon, it's they that are in the position to insist on things from us.
I think assessing stocks of blame is an utterly pointless task, that can only make things worse. Christians in part persecuted the Jews because they were angry over New Testament Christians being persecuted by the Jews. Why does it matter that tides favored the Christians who then became the very people they constantly preached against?

Jews are capable of hate, Christians are capable of hate, Tutsis are capable of hate, hutus are capable of hate, Manchu are capable of hate, the Han are capable of hate. OK so now what? I can't go back and check if my ancestors of many years ago persecuted the Jews. Who is going to reimburse my ancestor William Bradford who fled England amidst religious persecution and lost both his wife and son in the process? What about my great grandparents on both sides who crossed the planes in ox wagons and handcarts losing children and spouses in the process, who were then required to settle the God awful Utah valley?

What about gymnastic career I might have had if my coach had not been a religious bigot who turned me away from the sport forever?

What's done is done, and you don't help a wound heal by cutting it open again to assess how deep it was in the first place.

I'd much rather we get over the burdens our ancestors were unjustly forced to bear and focus on how we can all start enjoying each other's company now.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
What's done is done, and you don't help a wound heal by cutting it open again to assess how deep it was in the first place.

I'd much rather we get over the burdens our ancestors were unjustly forced to bear and focus on how we can all start enjoying each other's company now.

I mostly agree. Which is why I qualified my post numerous times. But I do recognize that, as a young white American citizen male, it's somewhat easier for me to be in a sort of mental place where I can say, "It's better if we drop all that crap from the old days."
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
What's done is done, and you don't help a wound heal by cutting it open again to assess how deep it was in the first place.

I'd much rather we get over the burdens our ancestors were unjustly forced to bear and focus on how we can all start enjoying each other's company now.

I mostly agree. Which is why I qualified my post numerous times. But I do recognize that, as a young white American citizen male, it's somewhat easier for me to be in a sort of mental place where I can say, "It's better if we drop all that crap from the old days."
Maybe so, but the easiness of a position makes it no less true. For some it is easy to forgive and forget, for others it's extremely difficult, we should applaud everyone who manages it. But there is more then enough injustice in the world to go around without us excusing our own conduct based on the past.

I don't owe anybody of any minority anything except to presently treat them as I would have them treat me.

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Dagonee
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Thanks, Noemon.
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mackillian
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Javert, it's from Good Omens.
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Lisa
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Just in case this thread gets locked, I want to apologize for offending people in this thread (other than Ron, of course). I've been trying really hard not to say things as insensitively as I've done in this thread, and while I know that "he made me do it" is infantile, I hope you all know that I only said what I did, the way I did, because I was intentionally responding to Ron in kind.
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Javert Hugo
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quote:
At some point in the film, Malcolm X is questioned regarding his expressed contempt and enmity with white people. (I'm very loosely paraphrasing here) He basically responds that the white man is in no position to insist on forgiveness, kindness, tolerance, or respect from the black man, due to the numerous crimes perpetrated by one race against the other.

He's got a point.

He certainly does not. That would work if humans were a handful of borgs rather than distinct individuals, but we aren't, and no one is exempt from the obligation to behave decently because of wrongs done in past generations.
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erosomniac
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Reading this thread was exhausting.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
He certainly does not. That would work if humans were a handful of borgs rather than distinct individuals, but we aren't, and no one is exempt from the obligation to behave decently because of wrongs done in past generations.
I'm afraid he does, Katie, because he wasn't advocating bad behaviors, just negative emotional and philosophical responses. It's also a bit different since he was speaking for a community, and in the context the representative of another community was speaking to him.

Is it decent to forgive someone who has wronged you horribly? I don't think decency is the right word. Virtuous, sure...but virtue isn't the same as decency.

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MrSquicky
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quote:
I hope you all know that I only said what I did, the way I did, because I was intentionally responding to Ron in kind.
So you don't actually believe what you wrote?
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Javert Hugo
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I think deliberately treating someone indecently when their only crime is to be the same color as someone who treated someone else of a different color badly in another time IS one of the minimum behaviors to be expected of a decent human being.

The whole point is that individuals DIDN'T wrong him horribly - someone else did, and he was blaming everyone of that color for it.

When you say he was speaking for a community, then you're saying that he was responding as, say, one borg discussing another. However, there is no such thing as collective guilt, only individual obligations.

[ December 10, 2007, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Javert Hugo ]

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Ron Lambert
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Thanks Bok. Apology, of course, accepted.

BlackBlade, I did not make the statement you seem to think I did. I never said that Mormons knew little of their own doctrine because they didn't know about the lords of Kolob thing. I said that Mormons knew little of their own doctrine because so many do not know that when they say Jesus is the Son of God, they do not mean exactly the same thing that most Evangelicals do. That is a true statement, and it would have been well if everyone had just left it at that.

When someone claimed that Mormons do believe exactly the same, which I know is not true, in that context I asked him to explain about Jesus being one of the Lords of Kolob. Some of you have not felt that was a fair question. Fine. But the fact remains that Mormons do not believe Jesus Christ is co-eternal and fully equal to the Father, and always has been. Any of you who think they do need to recheck their sources. This is indeed what most Evangelicals believe. They feel it is important, because only one who is truly and completely equal to God could atone for humanity's sin, and give them a new life. Even the life of an angel would not be of sufficient value, and he could not have the power or inherent virtue in himself to rise from the dead.

It was really not necessary to go into any of this. Some of you just would not accept that Mormons mean something different than Evangelicals do when they call Jesus the Son of God.

And as I also said, I am willing to accept Mormons as Christians anyway, and I am willing to vote for Romney anyway, because I am impressed by his personal "cult" of excellence.

Any problem is of the rabid rabble's own creation.

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Javert Hugo
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quote:
I said that Mormons knew little of their own doctrine because so many do not know that when they say Jesus is the Son of God, they do not mean exactly the same thing that most Evangelicals do.
That's nonsense. It means they know little of Evangelical doctrine. Which is perfectly fine.
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Jon Boy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
I said that Mormons knew little of their own doctrine because so many do not know that when they say Jesus is the Son of God, they do not mean exactly the same thing that most Evangelicals do. That is a true statement. . . .

No, it's not. I think most Mormons are pretty aware that we have a different idea of the Godhead than other Christians do.
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Kent
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Ron, this Mormon believes that Christ is co-eternal with the Father. Mormon Theologian Blake Ostler is publishing a book called "Of God and Gods", you can see his take on the various heresies in the summary of the book linked here.
quote:
These concepts may be summarized as follows:

1. The creation occurred by organizing the world not “from nothing” but from preexisting matter.

2. There was a grand council consisting of a plurality of gods in the beginning of the creation of this earth.

3. There was a Head God who presided over the council of gods.

4. The council of gods, under the direction of the Head God, appointed one God to preside over us in the work of creation and redemption.

5. Among these gods in the pre-earth council were intelligences who existed eternally without creation before they became mortal.

6. Humans have the potential to be gods because they are the same kind as God.


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Javert Hugo
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Yeah, Mormons know that we believe in two distinct personages and most other religions don't. In fact, to showcase this is one of the reasons the first vision occurred.
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Ron Lambert
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Jon Boy, you said: "I think most Mormons are pretty aware that we have a different idea of the Godhead than other Christians do."

*Sigh* This is exactly what I've been saying.

But then what have all these other people been raving about, claiming there is no difference? I wonder which Mormons I am talking to at any given moment.

Look, all I have been trying to say is that when Gov. Romney said he believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God, he got away with something, and it placated Evangelicals. And I think it is cool that he did.

OK? Are we done now?

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Ron Lambert
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Thanks, Kent.
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Lisa
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quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
I hope you all know that I only said what I did, the way I did, because I was intentionally responding to Ron in kind.
So you don't actually believe what you wrote?
You know I do. As I'm sure there are people on this board who believe that Jews will fry in hell forever. But things go more smoothly if controversial views of religion aren't shouted from the rooftops, and I've been trying to avoid that.
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Ron Lambert
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Lisa said: "But things go more smoothly if controversial views of religion aren't shouted from the rooftops, and I've been trying to avoid that."

So you have been trying to drown me out, Lisa? [Smile]

I hope you at least appreciate I am not among those "who believe that Jews will fry in hell forever." As I think you know, I do not believe in an ever-burning hell. I believe the only hell is the Lake of Fire that will exist for a short time until everything bad is burned up to completion, after the millennium when the entire surface of the earth is turned into a molten state, as a first step in re-creating the earth. As for who is tossed into the Lake of Fire, Revelation 20:9 says the Devil, Beast, and False Prophet will be cast into the Lake of Fire, presumably along with those who beseiged the Holy City. No mention of Jews there.

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erosomniac
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quote:
I hope you at least appreciate I am not among those "who believe that Jews will fry in hell forever."
[Wall Bash]
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MrSquicky
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quote:
I hope you at least appreciate I am not among those "who believe that Jews will fry in hell forever." As I think you know, I do not believe in an ever-burning hell. I believe the only hell is the lake of fire that will exist for a short time until everything bad is burned up to completion, after the millennium when the entire surface of the earth is turned into a molten state, as a first step in re-creating the earth. As for who is tossed into the Lake of Fire, Revelation 20:9 says the Devil, Beast, and False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, presumably along with those who beseiged the Holy City.
That's only if our small, but brave band of companions fail in their quest to destroy the One Ring.
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Ron Lambert
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But the ring must be destroyed in the molten lava! That is your quest, is it not?
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kmbboots
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MrSquicky,

[ROFL]

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MrSquicky
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Crap! I would have never engaged in our paradoxical enterprise had I but stopped to think about it.

Seriously though, you worship an evil deity. If your god does exist and have the character that you ascribe to him and want followers with the character you display, I think we're all screwed.

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pooka
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
Ron, this Mormon believes that Christ is co-eternal with the Father. Mormon Theologian Blake Ostler is publishing a book called "Of God and Gods", you can see his take on the various heresies in the summary of the book linked here.
quote:
These concepts may be summarized as follows:

1. The creation occurred by organizing the world not “from nothing” but from preexisting matter.

2. There was a grand council consisting of a plurality of gods in the beginning of the creation of this earth.

3. There was a Head God who presided over the council of gods.

4. The council of gods, under the direction of the Head God, appointed one God to preside over us in the work of creation and redemption.

5. Among these gods in the pre-earth council were intelligences who existed eternally without creation before they became mortal.

6. Humans have the potential to be gods because they are the same kind as God.


Kent, is this a list of heresies or something else? (Principles?) You have this Mormon totally confused. I've never heard of any council of gods.
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Dagonee
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quote:
I said that Mormons knew little of their own doctrine because so many do not know that when they say Jesus is the Son of God, they do not mean exactly the same thing that most Evangelicals do. That is a true statement, and it would have been well if everyone had just left it at that.
I've never seen a Mormon who didn't acknowledge that when they say Jesus is the Son of God, they do not mean exactly the same thing that most Evangelicals do. I've had arguments with several about the importance of those differences, but the arguments presupposed the existence of those differences being accepted by both sides.

quote:
When someone claimed that Mormons do believe exactly the same, which I know is not true, in that context I asked him to explain about Jesus being one of the Lords of Kolob.
No one said that.

quote:
Some of you have not felt that was a fair question. Fine. But the fact remains that Mormons do not believe Jesus Christ is co-eternal and fully equal to the Father, and always has been. Any of you who think they do need to recheck their sources.
First, it's entirely possible to acknowledge the differences while still thinking that your repeated use of the "Mormons think Jesus was one of the Lords of Kolob" line is manipulative and dishonest.

Second, the post you responded to with that question did not say what you purport to be refuting.

quote:
But then what have all these other people been raving about, claiming there is no difference? I wonder which Mormons I am talking to at any given moment.
Who has said this? No one has said there is no difference.

quote:
OK? Are we done now?
Not until you link the basis for your Lords of Kolob statement.
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King of Men
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
What copy of the Bible are you reading, it seems far different then the one I've got, could you send me a copy? Or I suppose you could just cite where Jesus said such a thing.
[/QB]

Here you go:

quote:
Originally posted by Matthew 16:28:
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Clearly the son of man has not yet come in his kingdom; equally clearly all who stood there listening to Jesus have in fact tasted death.
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MrSquicky
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quote:
Clearly the son of man has not yet come in his kingdom; equally clearly all who stood there listening to Jesus have in fact tasted death.
Or, alternatively, one of the people there was granted immortality.

That's an interesting idea for a story. If you assume it was the last person alive, it's like the most valuable tontine of all time.

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pooka
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Ron, I'm really annoyed at how you blew off my question as to the Lords of Kolob thing in the other thread. You throw it out there and then pretend I am being obtuse or ill-informed.

Jesus is the only being I call Lord. I can't put it any plainer than that.

You are right we mean something different as to Jesus being the Son of God. We believe he is literally the Son of God while you believe it is something other than literal. I can't say for every intent and purpose which is better, only that ours is more literal.

P.S. And I know of many cases where the most literal reading is not the one Mormons adhere to.

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Noemon
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I was just thinking the same thing, Squick (both the person being granted near immortality and the possibilities of that as a story. And maybe working in the Wandering Jew into it as well).
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