posted
The thing is, launchy, a claim like that can end a teacher's career, permanently... even if its not true. Thats why its taken so seriously.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
What steven seems to failing to realize is that not everyone accused of pedophilia is actually a pedophile. They may very well be perfectly innocent.
Another really damaging effect of the students' "joke" is that actual victims of abuse may be taken less seriously when they report actual crimes.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
To be fair, a 90-day suspension probably *is* an expulsion. In our district, once you hit ten days of OSS, you are recommended for expulsion. Now, it being a public school district, kids expelled from their school can generally just transfer over to another school in the district. It may make transportation an issue, because they will likely have to provide their own transportation.
If I were the teacher and the suspension were overturned, I would quit.Particularly if it were ruled "protected speech." Nationwide, and certainly in my district, we are currently in a teacher shortage. If the message were sent that you have no protection from even the most egregious libel and character assassination, I think that would exacerbate the problem. I'm not sure it's good for society for that message to be sent.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Actually, I have a difficult time imagining not one but several teenagers didn't know that calling a teacher a pedophile is serious business, 'joking' or not.
I find it much more plausible to imagine that they knew that was a real possibility, but simply didn't care, because they thought they were safely off school grounds.
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Icarus, I read entropicalisle. Calling me a tool is not necessary. Or is that not what you meant?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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I am wondering why they made that specific claim. I am on the "they should TOTALLY be in trouble for this" side. But I do hearken back to the teacher who gave extra credit to the girls who wore short skirts and crossed their legs, and graded based on how much he liked you/cute he thought you were, and had married one of his students the month after she graduated, and... He taught at my high school for at least 35 years before they finally fired him. Numerous complaints were filed, his classes were half-full because of transfers out, he did little real teaching-- but he "had tenure" and the school district wouldn't touch him. Until one of the students' parents (both lawyers) threatened a sexual harassment suit... And all of a sudden, he was gone in less than 10 days, as quietly as possible...
So see, if that's where my mind goes, it DOES have a negative effect on his career. I would at the very least look very closely at his employment record before interviewing him if I was in a position to hire teachers and heard such a claim had been made about him, even in jest.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Here is the important and critical thing to consider, just because you think something is a joke or funny, that by no-means means it is 'Parody'. To be 'parody' you have to be parodying something. What is the parody?
They risked destroying this teacher on every front. Even with retracting the accusations, and claiming it was 'all a joke'. The shadow is going to follow this teacher forever. It has the potential to break up his marriage, alienate him from his own children, it can destroy is teaching career and influence his ability to get a job forever.
This also threaten the credibility and called into question the judgment of the school. They are now forever clouded by the thought amoung some that they may have allowed a pedophile to teach in their school.
REAL DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE HERE, and real consequences need to be suffered. A 90 day suspension is getting off easy. They could very well find themselves facing millions of dollars in liability, and potential criminal charges.
I can point a loaded gun at your head, and claim it is all a joke, but if the gun goes off, you won't be any less dead because I thought it was funny.
This is as grossly negligent and as potentially damaging as the proverbial shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater.
As to whether the Teacher can sue, it depends on IF he was actually damaged. If he can no longer effectively teach in this school. If he has a shadow hanging over him that prevents him from getting future employment. If he personal life starts to crumble under the shadow of the accusation. Then he has a very serious lawsuit available to him. He has been irrevocably damaged, and someone has to pay for that damage.
Just because you/they think is funny does erase the illegality and liability of those actions.
Thinking 'it's funny' is never justification for harming someone else. 'It was just a joke' is NEVER an excuse.
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: ...Until one of the students' parents (both lawyers) threatened a sexual harassment suit... And all of a sudden, he was gone in less than 10 days, as quietly as possible...
This sort of incident is a BIG problem. Too many schools don't want to be associated with the the person accused of or convicted of (insert sex crime here). Even when they are presented with pretty compelling reasons to have charges pressed they quietly let him go so he can go do more damage somewhere else...
(androgynous pronoun use)
When I was a newly licensed driver, I was pulled over several times for speeding or other infractions, and I was told more than once by an officer that because my license was clean, he wasn't going to ticket me. While I was grateful for this, it illustrates how a person can continue committing crimes and no one will step up and make the accusation that may fix the problem.
Posts: 369 | Registered: Apr 2007
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Well, he didn't go on to something else. As far as I know, he retired a couple of years early (with the corresponding partial loss of benefits) and part of the agreement was that he was not to teach any more. His wife continued to work and AFAIK they did have some investments that had allowed them to pay off the house years earlier, so he mostly stays home now. Yes, I would like to see him in trouble for the years of discomfort and problems he caused his students, but, well, at least he doesn't have the opportunity to do it any more.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Wow... I had a totally different reaction then nearly everyone else here. I can't imagine taking an accusation of being a member of NAMBLA seriously, ESPECIALLY on Facebook. If I saw "NAMBLA" listed on someone's Facebook page then I would immediately assume it was a joke (and I suspect so would everyone else in my school). NAMBLA has been parodied a ton on T.V (I've seen Jon Stewart parody it numerous times), and I was under the impression that NAMBLA itself had virtually turned into a joke. Hell, it's such a fringe organization that it's basically a self-parody anyways. I thought that the only reason so many people knew about it in the first place was because it had been parodied so much.
It honestly took me a moment to understand how the students' actions even constituted an accusation of pedophilia. I'm not kidding.
Maybe it's a generational thing?
I initially wouldn't even have considered the NAMBLA label an issue. I would have punished the students for impersonating a teacher. Obviously my opinion has changed since I see that so many people take such a thing seriously, but I still think a 90 day suspension is absurd in the extreme. There's a difference between punishment and revenge. As it is, the school is clearly seeking revenge. If the school wanted to punish the students they would have either given them detention or suspended them for a few days. What they decided to do was cripple these students' futures. Now the students have no chance of getting into a top school (and it would be unfair to assume that they are slackers, I can think of a few smart kids in my school who could believably do the same thing).
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How old are you? I'm 24. And I don't think a 90 day suspension is "revenge." I think it takes into account that these kids don't seem to get that what they did was wrong. If they had owned it honestly, I would have been less likely to think a whole 90 days was warranted. But this sends a clear message that impersonating another online is not okay, baseless accusations of pedophilia are not okay, and what you do on the internet does have repercussions-- even if what you do is done in jest.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Threads: What they decided to do was cripple these students' futures. Now the students have no chance of getting into a top school (and it would be unfair to assume that they are slackers, I can think of a few smart kids in my school who could believably do the same thing).
Any association of a teacher with child abuse of any sort is taken seriously enough that these kids may have crippled the teacher's future. I figure the consequences are pretty fair.
I am honestly baffled that there are people who don't see connecting a teacher with a pedophilia organisation as serious. I'd say "maybe it's a parent thing," except I don't have kids.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Assuming the suspension holds, wouldn't the kids still be able to do a year or two at a community college, then transfer to a regular school?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I'm 24, have no children, went to a school where a teacher was a pedophile, and have seen NAMBLA used as a joke on the same shows as mentioned above, but I think a 90 day suspension is well within the bounds of just punishment for these kids. There is a huge difference between Jon Stewart parodying something and some kid associating his teacher with pedophilia.
The damage from these kids could be life altering, while no damage is generally done by a professional comedian's comments on a parody program. It is somewhat ridiculous to attempt equating these two things.
quote:Originally posted by steven: Assuming the suspension holds, wouldn't the kids still be able to do a year or two at a community college, then transfer to a regular school?
Yes. I know lots of people who do that who have excellent GPAs and records anyway, because it's so much cheaper.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Last year my school expelled a kid for threatening to vandalize my car. I think what these kids did is far more damaging than what that kid did to me, and they should be expelled. I can't imagine continuing to teach the kids who had tried to destroy my life like that; that teacher shouldn't have to.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Launchywiggin: Also, Bush libel is protected under some "public figure" clause--so we're allowed to lie about him all we want.
And that's a good thing, too. Otherwise, Hollywood would be bankrupt. Except for Tom Selleck, probably.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Also, Bush libel is protected under some "public figure" clause--so we're allowed to lie about him all we want.
I missed this my first time through. This is not true.
Defamation actions brought by public officials require the official to demonstrate actual malice, which can be done by showing that the defendant knew the statement was false or that the defendant acted in reckless disregard of the truth.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: I think it takes into account that these kids don't seem to get that what they did was wrong. If they had owned it honestly, I would have been less likely to think a whole 90 days was warranted.
Their claim of innocence came after the 90 day suspension. It's not clear that they would have protested a less punishment.
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: Any association of a teacher with child abuse of any sort is taken seriously enough that these kids may have crippled the teacher's future.
If there had been a serious investigation of the claim then maybe it could have. As it is, it was exposed to be a hoax and the kids were severely punished. If the teacher has trouble getting hired because of it then it's the fault of an irrational and paranoid employer, not of the kids.
quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: I am honestly baffled that there are people who don't see connecting a teacher with a pedophilia organisation as serious. I'd say "maybe it's a parent thing," except I don't have kids.
Not appreciated at all.
quote:Originally posted by prolixshore: The damage from these kids could be life altering, while no damage is generally done by a professional comedian's comments on a parody program. It is somewhat ridiculous to attempt equating these two things.
I think you misread what I wrote because I never equated the two. Given the media's portrayal of NAMBLA I assumed that nobody actually took the organization seriously. The actual members of NAMBLA may be serious but, like I said, it's such a fringe organization that I find it surprising that anybody views it as a serious threat ("anybody" as in anyone in general, not necessarily related to Hatrack. I googled NAMBLA and came up with a couple of ridiculous lawsuits that had been filed against it.)
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
quote:Originally posted by steven: Assuming the suspension holds, wouldn't the kids still be able to do a year or two at a community college, then transfer to a regular school?
Yes. I know lots of people who do that who have excellent GPAs and records anyway, because it's so much cheaper.
It depends on what you want to do. Two years of community college would probably not be adequate preparation for someone to enter junior year at, say, Princeton or any other top-notch school.
EDIT: Removed an extremely arrogant non-obvious self-plug by myself. I can't believe I actually included it in the first place.
posted
Just so you know, that was my initial reaction, too, Threads. It's such a ridiculous joke compared to an actual accusation, which SHOULD be taken seriously. It was done on facebook for pete's sake.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Eaquae Legit: I am honestly baffled that there are people who don't see connecting a teacher with a pedophilia organisation as serious. I'd say "maybe it's a parent thing," except I don't have kids.
Not appreciated at all.
Why not? How is that different from:
quote:Originally posted by Threads: Maybe it's a generational thing?
quote:Originally posted by steven: Assuming the suspension holds, wouldn't the kids still be able to do a year or two at a community college, then transfer to a regular school?
Yes. I know lots of people who do that who have excellent GPAs and records anyway, because it's so much cheaper.
It depends on what you want to do. Two years of community college would probably not be adequate preparation for someone to enter junior year at, say, Cornell Engineering. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I don't see why they need to. When public schools expel you, they don't leave you diploma-less. Instead, you transfer to another school in the district and get your diploma there.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Their claim of innocence came after the 90 day suspension. It's not clear that they would have protested a less punishment.
Their PUBLIC claim of innocence. I bet they were spouting the "it was just a joke, it didn't hurt anyone" all the way from the principal's office home. And you don't know any better than I do-- unless you happen to be one of the kids, which I doubt.
quote:It depends on what you want to do. Two years of community college would probably not be adequate preparation for someone to enter junior year at, say, Cornell Engineering.
Well, they don't have to enter as a junior. I've seen people go in as a sophomore or even a freshman, depending on what is warranted. I've known people to go from community college to schools like UC Berkeley and Caltech, just because they messed around in high school, went to CC to appease their parents, and then when they finally wanted to go to college were able to get in with their CC grades.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:When public schools expel you, they don't leave you diploma-less. Instead, you transfer to another school in the district and get your diploma there.
But they were suspended, not expelled.
And my district (well, the one I grew up in) has been known to expel kids from the district, meaning if you get expelled from one HS the only options open to you are private school, transfer to another district (and they don't have to accept you) or continuation school. Get kicked out of the private schools and continuation school and you're pretty much out of luck once you're 16, you can take the CHSPE or GED.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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At most schools I am familiar with, a 90-day suspension is an automatic expulsion, as I mentioned above.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Expelling kids from a district is not impossible here; but still, most expulsions here are just from one school. You'd have to be considered a real threat to get expelled from the whole district--especially given that we do have a few options for really "incorrigible" kids.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I'm much more concerned with whether or not the teacher is a decent human being or not. Does he care whether or not his students learn? Does he care about them as people? Perhaps that's not logical, but, to me, that might be a factor if I were to decide the punishment.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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I said "might" be "a" factor. I was thinking out loud. Why do people take my musings so seriously?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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Ah, I see, Icky. In my district, the only automatic expulsion is attacking a teacher. But they were a tough district in general and probably about half the kids who were expelled were expelled from the district.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Oh, and steven, I don't see why anything the teacher does or does not do, other than being a member of NAMBLA (which he isn't, so that makes it libel), would matter.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by steven: I said "might" be "a" factor. I was thinking out loud. Why do people take my musings so seriously?
That is an excellent question. You're quite right. I should not have taken you seriously. I should know better by now.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I'll weigh in as another person who is astonished that someone would consider blowing something of this magnitude off as a "joke." The assigned suspension seems appropriate and reasonable to me.
I'm well aware that Threads and Launchywiggan disagree with this, but so it goes.
---
Edited to add: Whether or not some young folk would take it seriously isn't the point. What is more relevant is what unwarranted repercussions the teacher would face from this, and such repercussions would primarily occur in the minds and actions of other adults, particularly those of standing in the community (that is just the way power works).
Regardless of whether a few given young folk would care about it, the predominant view of the cross-section of adults here (parents, medical people, legal people, other teachers, non-parents with other longterm investments in their communities, etc.) is that this would likely have a crippling effect on this fellow's future life, and for no good reason.
The fact that some of the kids might think that is idiotic is rather beside the point. The teacher would primarily be judged by his peers in the community, and the rolled eyes of some students would not change that.
posted
I don't I would take the actions of these students very seriously, given the situation. You're going to have to convince me that the students thought that anyone would take this seriously.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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And all it takes in today's climate is a whiff of controversy before people start to back away from you, especially if you are a teacher. People generally seem to figure that if there's smoke, there is at least a bit of fire. That may well be borne out in this thread, too.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by steven: I don't I would take the actions of these students very seriously, given the situation. You're going to have to convince me that the students thought that anyone would take this seriously.
steven, that is not necessary to establish culpability. Intent may make a difference in what charges can and should be laid, and what punishment should thus follow, but ignorance of outcome doesn't mean (in our society) that you are absolved of responsibility for the outcomes of your actions.
Additionally, often the measure is not just whether these people knew, but whether a reasonable person should have known. And that is assessed by what is known by others in that community. I can't imagine that most students of that age would not know that joking around about a teacher being a pedophile could have negative consequences for that teacher. I suppose there is data somewhere, or students at a comparable school could be surveyed -- but I honestly doubt that many judges would require that step.
So, it may not be convincing to you, and you certain have the perogative to make up your own mind. However, the real world consequences both for the teacher and the students are indeed likely to be reliant on other standards than yours.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I'm not saying you're wrong. I think I know what my personal response would be, given the situation. I'd probably observe the guy more carefully, and ask other students, in private, if they had any suspicions of the teacher prior to the website prank. I would draw no conclusions without having asked quite a few students. However, I can't say that everyone would be as thorough. I'd hope they would, but I have no real idea, you know? Thoughts?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I'm probably LESS rational than most people, on average. However, I do think my approach to this exact type of situation is a pretty intelligent one, as a direct result of my life experiences. So, tough call.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think it's "several people, including me, have..." -- because the "including X" bit doesn't have anything to do with the rest of the sentence. Consider "several people, including President Nixon, have" or "several people, including you, have" or "several people, including multiple random aliens, have..." "Me," in this case, is the object of the act of inclusion.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:I don't I would take the actions of these students very seriously, given the situation. You're going to have to convince me that the students thought that anyone would take this seriously.
steven, don't you see that YOU are evidence of the real damage that this teacher faces? YOU have suggested that he may likely be a pedophile, based on your experience in sixth grade and no knowledge of this guy other than the hoax. You've never met this guy, and you think there may be something wrong with him. YOU have suggested investigating the teacher's behavior and judging his heart before punishing the students, implying that the circumstances may be mitigated by his failings. WHY should HE be investigated? He is the victim here! Do you favor investigating victims of other crimes as well, to ascertain to what extent they were "asking for it"?
Now what if you weren't just some crackpot on the internet, but a member of the PTA? A neighbor? A local gossip?
(Sorry for the caps, but I'm on a cell phone and it's easier than italics.)
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