It is our senior year in high school and we are trying to plan a trip to Ocean City right after graduation.
First of all...This trip is just about as safe as you can get. We will be renting a cabin and it will ONLY be people in our group of friends, ONLY people we have known for years and trust completely. There will be NO drinking, NO drugs and NO sex. All of us feel strongly about this policy, and we have NEVER gotten drunk or done drugs together in the past. There will be a mixture of boys and girls, but we will be sleeping in seperate rooms. None of us are sexually active.
My friend (I'll call her E) has not yet gotten permission from her parents to go. Her parents, in my opinion, are ridiculous. Technically, E is 18...Technically she is an adult.
Here are some of the things her mother has reportedly said to her about the trip:
You don't NEED to go.
You'll still have friends even if you don't go.
How about a chaperone?
Why do you even want to do this? What has happened to our E[her name]?
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In my opinion, her parents do NOT have the right to say these things to her. They are guilt-tripping her into staying safe at home with them forever. She is EIGTHTEEN! She's going to COLLEGE next September! And they are acting as if, just by her wanting to go on a trip with her friends for a week, she is somehow abandoning them, turning into somebody else. But she is NOT THEIR BABY ANYMORE!
Worse, E is toally okay with it. She totally submits to her parents, and she always has. IT DRIVES ME CRAZY! She describes them sometimes as a "bother", nothing worse.
How do I deal with this?? In my fantasies, I am standing and yelling and E and/or her parents about how ridiculous I think they are. But I know I cannot actually do this. She's my friend and I get along well with her and her family. I just think they are being totally unfair. She is an adult now!
Just to give you some idea of what her parents are like, here are some other things they make her do: -Sit in the backseat when she's not driving so her little sister (14) doesn't get "jealous". -Take SAT prep courses -Take the SAT 4 times -Apply to 11 colleges -Spend every other weekend during her senior year visiting colleges -Not sleep over her friends houses if there's going to be boys there, even if they sleep in different rooms
They complain when she goes out on Friday nights with us...Apparently she's "out partying" all the time. So apparently "all the time" means 8:30 to 10:30 Friday night, once a week, at the skating rink or movie theater.
Ok sorry..I just needed to vent. I may delete this post after awhile. But if I write this all down with the vague hope that some stranger will read it, it may stop me from yelling all these things directly at my friend and hurting her feelings. I guess it's not really my right to care about the way her family works. But...SERIOUSLY! Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006
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She's an adult and so is her family. Honestly, you're going to be in college shortly and so will she. She'll have to find her own way, and you won't be dealing with her very often.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:In my opinion, her parents do NOT have the right to say these things to her. They are guilt-tripping her into staying safe at home with them forever. She is EIGTHTEEN! She's going to COLLEGE next September!
They certainly do have the right to say these things to her. And she has the right to tell them to shove it. But if she's planning on continuing to live with them over the summer and accept their financial help while she's in college, that wouldn't be a very good idea.
That's the flip side, you know? If you're supporting yourself and paying for your own schooling, through jobs or scholarships, you can expect to be able to do anything you want. If not, not so much.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:That's the flip side, you know? If you're supporting yourself and paying for your own schooling, through jobs or scholarships, you can expect to be able to do anything you want. If not, not so much.
This is quite true. Despite her age, she is not functionally an adult yet. I mean, what would make you happy? No 'unreasonable' rules, no 'unfair' restrictions, but the money keeps flowing?
Not to mention that, as other have pointed out, if your friend is OK with this, it's really none of your business. In my opinion, one should only get this nosy and outraged about the lives of their friends if they're doing something really hurtful or dangerous, like drugs or unprotected sex or something.
But being too much of a square? Pft.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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The problem with being overprotective in a general sense is that kids from such homes are more likely to go 'nuts' their first semester at college. Although, honestly, these parents sound only a little overprotective to me. Overprotective, but only by a little.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:The problem with being overprotective in a general sense is that kids from such homes are more likely to go 'nuts' their first semester at college.
This is one of those truisms that I've never seen backed up by evidence. Anecdotally, it certainly wasn't true of the guys in my suite first year.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:The problem with being overprotective in a general sense is that kids from such homes are more likely to go 'nuts' their first semester at college.
This is one of those truisms that I've never seen backed up by evidence. Anecdotally, it certainly wasn't true of the guys in my suite first year.
I've seen at least 3 Christian friends go from being strictly religious to drinking and acting quite wild, while me, the quiet heathen didn't do very much at all..
Some of you are sounding too harsh. She just wants to her friend to have a good fun time on a trip. Who even knows when she'll get to see her again? I'm reminded of my grandmother and how she'd get when I wanted to take a trip or do something. She'd get too strict and I wasn't even 1/8ths as wild as my cousins who experimented with drugs. On the other hand, it is good for her to apply to a lot of colleges and study and the like, but it isn't healthy for parents to be too strict and controlling with their kids anymore than it is for them to let them do as they please.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:I've seen at least 3 Christian friends go from being strictly religious to drinking and acting quite wild, while me, the quiet heathen didn't do very much at all..
First, I can find numerous counterexamples the other way. Neither of us is in a position to meaningfully evaluate which outcome is "more likely" for children raised in overprotective homes.
Second, my recollection is that you were raised in an overprotective home - something you've written negatively about here. So your example doesn't directly apply to the proposition being evaluated.
quote:Some of you are sounding too harsh. She just wants to her friend to have a good fun time on a trip. Who even knows when she'll get to see her again?
We're sounding too harsh? The opening post made extremely harsh judgments about her friend's family - judgments that the poster acknowledges would hurt her friend's feelings.
If this is truly about disappointment concerning a beach week trip, then she is allowing her disappointment to cause her to say hurtful things about her friend.
But I don't see anything in the opening post to indicate that it isn't about what it appears to be about on its face: one friend rendering a judgment that shows an inherent lack of respect for her friend's desires and wishes.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:This is one of those truisms that I've never seen backed up by evidence. Anecdotally, it certainly wasn't true of the guys in my suite first year.
I wouldn't say that I was "overprotected*" but I certainly was not terribly teenagerish (shall we say) in High School. College changed very little for me in this respect. I did not go wild and dye my hair pink, party constantly or drink myself into the ground. It wasn't that I was held back by my parents particular, only that I had less interest.
I doubt my parents would have been too thrilled about me going to a random out of the way cottage with a bunch of teenagers, however "responsible" my friends were (and they were pretty responsible). I honestly didn't ask. They were somewhat iffy about us going to my family's own cottage (we didn't go.)
* I think there is a difference between being "overprotected/overrestricted" and being the kind of person- and respecting your parents wishes enough- that doesn't need to be overly rebellious. I have a friend that, in grade eight, told everyone that she wasn't allowed to go to middle school dances not because she wasn't actually allowed but because she didn't want to go. If your friend isn't fighting her parents so much, maybe she doesn't want to go as much as you want her to, enough to jeopardize her relationship with her parents.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:-Sit in the backseat when she's not driving so her little sister (14) doesn't get "jealous". -Take SAT prep courses -Take the SAT 4 times -Apply to 11 colleges -Spend every other weekend during her senior year visiting colleges -Not sleep over her friends houses if there's going to be boys there, even if they sleep in different rooms
I'm really failing to see how any of this is unreasonable or even related.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Perhaps in her perspective her parent's friend's are a bit harsh with her, perhaps her friend doesn't really mind, who knows but them... I don't think she's being disrespectful, maybe she just wants her friend to have a good time at a cottage, one last bang before college. I do not know.
When I was in college, I would taste alcohol sometimes, decide I didn't like it and not get drunk. I mostly hung out in computer labs and watched movies in a nerdy sort of way. So it is possible for kids to get together and not do anything irresponsible, but who knows?
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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The SAT thing stuck in my mind the most. I took it once, fall of my junior year, and the score was the highest in my high school of about 950 kids. I didn't bother taking it again. I kind of assumed that any Hatracker's best friend would be in a similar position, but maybe no.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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I walked in to take the SATs when I was 4, and the tester said that I wasn't allowed to because I would get a score so high it would throw the entire standardized testing industry into a tailspin, thus causing colleges to totally overhaul their admissions processes. And even though I thought it would be awesome if you had to arm-wrestle the admissions officer as part of your interview process, I submitted to his authority.
Also, every single one of my friends is the smartest person in the universe. Maybe even the world.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:-Sit in the backseat when she's not driving so her little sister (14) doesn't get "jealous". -Take SAT prep courses -Take the SAT 4 times -Apply to 11 colleges -Spend every other weekend during her senior year visiting colleges -Not sleep over her friends houses if there's going to be boys there, even if they sleep in different rooms
I can't even begin to tell you how perfectly reasonable I think all of these rules are.
That said, I do agree that an 18-year-old has the right to go on a trip with her friends if she likes. They just don't have that power over her unless of course they're paying for it.
The trouble is you can't make the choice for her either. It sounds like a nice experience and she'll be missing out, but it's her life and her choice. I hope you will find some way of accepting that. We just don't have control over what other people do.
Hope you have fun on your trip!
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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OK, that was funny. However, since one of our main members is TomD, one of the youngest people ever to ace the SAT prior to the re-vamping of the test, my point still sort of stands, right?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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I kicked the SAT's ass. Of course, that was AFTER the revamping.
I feel unfortunate.
And yet, I'd say this is overprotective. She's not learning to make her own decisions, how to take care of herself. She's being cushioned from both temptation and consequence, which will abound when she goes to college.
I have a friend whose mother is over-controlling. She constantly schedules, checks up on things, generally tried to run her academic life for her daughter in college. My friend (we'll call her C) struggled throughout high school to get OUT from under her mother's net because she wanted to be able to handle all those stressors without somebody governing her behavior.
For my part, I don't get the protective thing, 'cause my parents were very far from that. We were given a very long leash, but also given responsibility for what we did very early on (my fourth grade teacher was very surprised when I set up a conference with her then showed up without my mom, but I just thought it was normal). And I'd say we turned out pretty well. My brother and I have very different viewpoints from our parents (atheists, libertarian and socialist, and one of us is homosexual, versus our Republican Christian folks). But we are extremely responsible and resourceful, and the fact is that though we both get into trouble a lot, we've learned to make our way out of it just as easily without outside help.
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Tell your friend E that she's lucky she's got parents that actually care what she does. My parents are ridiculously naive about the world for some reason and they let me do whatever I want. If it wasn't for my own self restraint I'd probably be in juvie right now.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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I think I took the SAT 6 times, the ACT twice, and applied to almost 20 colleges. I got to go to a really good school and got a scholarship out of the deal, so I don't see how it was in any way bad.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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SoaP - I was pretty much going to say the same thing that you did. When I was in high school my mother was much more protective of me than my friends' parents were of them - I was not allowed to do the same things they were, go to parties, see certain movies, etc. I loathed her for it at the time but now, years later, I realize she was just trying to protect me from myself and my own naivety about the world, and I am immensely grateful for it, and only now do I realize how incredibly lucky I was, and still am, to be worried over so deeply.
Tara, back off your friend's parents. They have a right to raise their daughter as they see fit, and as long as she is under their roof and accepting their money, the least she can do is show them some respect by abiding by their rules and standards (and it seems like she is doing just that - which I imagine takes a great deal of maturity and respect on her part). Experience tells me that no matter how good the kids are, and how trustworthy, a group of high schoolers on an unchaperoned trip is a risky venture in any case. I'm hardly the pillar of virtue and I disobeyed my mother plenty in high school, but I respect her now for her way of teaching me what was appropriate. Just because you think someone's opinions are ridiculous, doesn't mean they are, and all you are doing is showing your age and maturity (or lack thereof.) Spare us the ranting, and spare your friend the stress of making her choose between her parents' standards and your friendship. Enjoy your trip and try not to worry about what your friend is missing out on. She sounds like she's doing just fine.
Posts: 1225 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Have you asked the girl why her parents disapprove of the idea that she wants to go on a cabin retreat to the point of them telling her 'oh what happened to our little girl?'
Because they might need to back off of the helicopter parenting a little bit. I dunno. Besides the mentality they don't seem to be doing anything 'unhealthy' or 'unfair' but y'know.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I know it's not my business and I know it would hurt her feelings..which is why I'm saying it to Hatrack, and not to HER. I would never say all of this to her.
quote: Just because you think someone's opinions are ridiculous, doesn't mean they are, and all you are doing is showing your age and maturity (or lack thereof.) Spare us the ranting, and spare your friend the stress of making her choose between her parents' standards and your friendship. Enjoy your trip and try not to worry about what your friend is missing out on. She sounds like she's doing just fine.
Yes...I know. I agree with what you say. Her mom, though, just doesn't compromise. And doesn't give reasons for her decisions.
Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006
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The statement isn't saying that they've never had drugs alone or with others, just that they've never done drugs together. Ha ha.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Yeah, I saw that at first but just assumed it meant that they may have had a bit of alcohol with their parents but never drank, partied, done drugs, or had sex.
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I think her parents' questions about this trip are perfectly reasonable, as are their "rules" (it doesn't seem like all of them are rules, more things they urged her to do/requests.)
And I'm not that far removed from 18 myself.
She can go or not go, as she wishes. I think you need to back off on your friend's parents and let her make her own choice to respect or not respect their wishes.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Tom: Everyone learns about it when they sign up. It's in the "Stuff you should know about TomD" section of the Hatrack application.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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So long as we're all talking about our friends from high school...
I had a friend (we'll call him B) whose parents started him on piano and violin when he was 4 years old, got him into church choir and public orchestra at an early age, forced him to do a ton of after-school activities and join lots of clubs that he didn't even like, scheduled his time very strictly so he virtually never got to hang out with his friends. He was pushed very hard academically. They required B to take the SAT and ACT several times to improve his scores, even though his scores where high enough to get him accepted into any college in the US the first time around.
And what happened? Well, B's senior year in high school he basically told his parents to shove it. He hated playing the piano, he hated playing the violin, he hated orchestra and choir, he quit some of the sports and clubs that he didn't like, and deliberately failed a class just to show his parents that he could get accepted to a good college without straight A's.
And now B is a physics major and president of his fraternity. He's not destroying his life by partying or anything, and he still works hard, but he makes a lot more room for spending time with his friends and having relationships (that was another weird thing, his parents forbid him to date).
In my mind, that's a good story. I would have been very sad if B just rolled over and accepted that his parents were running his life, even if they did have his best interest in mind. I do find over-protective parents weird. I place a high priority on my friends and forming close bonds with people. Parents that really shelter their children absolutely can harm their child's opportunities and ability to form lasting friendships, IMO.
Not that this is exactly what's happening. Tara, I think you should ask your friend if she really even wants to go. I can understand placing school and work over your friends to a degree, but this is a choice people need to make for themselves at some point, not something your parents should decide, especially when you're 18.
In your case, it sounds like your friend is already set academically, and this trip won't hurt her ability to prepare for college in anyway, and it won't prevent her from getting accepted anywhere... there's no reason for her NOT to go, and when her parents tell her "There's no reason for you TO go," it feels like they're calling your friendship insignificant.
I was very proud when B told his parents that their extreme monopoly of his time was hurting his friendships, that his friends are important to him, and he wasn't going to just sit around and take it anymore. He started doing things that he enjoyed doing, and spending time with people he enjoyed being around. He still gets along great with his parents, btw, and still stays with them during the summer.
Posts: 247 | Registered: Feb 2007
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I don't think I have. I actually kind of make a point of not participating in "what score did you get on this test" threads. Maybe in a moment of weakness or something....
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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"Maybe in a moment of weakness or something...."
I think there were actually two separate mentions, but one of them may have occurred on Ornery. I couldn't swear to the truth of either of those statements without doing a 45-minute archive search, though. We all know how I feel about doing archive searches with these crappy search functions.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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I never took the SATs or ACTs. I really wish I had, but my high school didn't really make a big deal of it, and so I just kinda... missed them. I didn't even know that it was a school independent thing until it was too late. So here I sit at age 25 and no college education (yet). I don't even know if it would be practical to try to take them now. I suspect I would have done pretty well.
As to the OP: I'll admit that they look overprotective to ME, but then I'm in the same boat as SoaP with the moderately inattentive parents growing up. I also was sustained only by my own self control. But then, I think that's a good thing. I think it means more that I did it MYSELF instead of having to be forced into it. Gives me something to take pride in.
Posts: 636 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I don't think I have. I actually kind of make a point of not participating in "what score did you get on this test" threads. Maybe in a moment of weakness or something....
Tom, while I don't think I know (or ever did) your precise score, I believe it did once come up that you had done exceedingly well.
(That may have been in person, but I don't think so.)
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I know I am shocked--shocked!--to hear that Tom did so well on the SATs!
As for the OP...Tara, unlike some other responders, I think it was wise of you to post your frustrations here instead of taking them up with your friend. And it's not selfish, wrong, or disrespectful for you to have those feelings, either. It might be any or all of those things if you had acted on them, which it is obvious from your original post that you didn't.
It's too bad your friend's parents won't let her go on a trip that is potentially so much fun, and so important to your group of friends. Do consider that E may consider it less important than maintaining a good relationship with her parents. Some things are worth going to the mat for, others aren't.
And OK, this would have been 15 years ago, but my parents weren't especially overprotective--I had rules to follow, but they wanted me to have friends and a social life==but they never never never never ever never would have let me go on a co-ed unchaperoned overnight trip. For them, it wasn't a question of trusting me or not trusting me--in their eyes, that kind of trip was simply not appropriate for me as an 18 year old. At 18, I wouldn't have fought them on that, either. I probably wouldn't have even bothered asking if I could go, since the answer would be so obvious. (And at 33, I have to say that I think I agree.) I'm not sure what their response would have been if it had been an all-girls trip.
Anyway, don't be too mad at your friend. It's very hard to be trapped between two people you care about who have very different expectations for you. Help your friend by not creating that kind of stress for her.
And enjoy your trip!
Posts: 834 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tara: Yes...I know. I agree with what you say. Her mom, though, just doesn't compromise. And doesn't give reasons for her decisions.
LOL! You sound like my stepdaughter. As if her mom has to compromise, or give reasons for her decisions. Her parents make decisions based on what they feel is best for her. That's it, end of story. If the girl doesn't like those decisions, as I tell my stepdaughter, she can do whatever she pleases when she gets out on her own. Until then, if she lives under her parent's roof, she needs to abide by their rules. For whatever reasons, given or not. Compromise. As if it's a democracy. LOL.
Sounds like to me that her parents have standards and that they are holding her to these standards, and values. If those don't fit with others, including you, then too bad. It's not others that are held responsible for their daughter's upbringing.
Whenever I hear something like this from my stepkids I smile because I am reassured that what I'm doing is right. If I allowed everything that they thought I should I wouldn't be a parent. I'd be a doormat.
Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jan 2001
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This question may seem a bit out there, but are E and her family from a different ethnic group or religion than you and your other friends? If so there maybe different norms about how parents and children interact than you are used to. They may have different standards about what types of activities are appropriate for mixed gender groups. Your friend might feel uncomfortable talking about these issues because she doesn't want to highlight the differences between her family's culture or beliefs and those of her friends.
What ever the source, its clear that E's family has different ideas about how parents and children should relate and what is appropriate for 18 year olds. You need to try to understand E's family and where they are coming from rather than simply condemning them because they are different.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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You're missing the point, TomD. The last thing they want is a chaperone. This is about getting away from chaperones, testing their own ability to live without chaperones before they go to college.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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The people to be frustrated with are not your friend's parents, but rather the minority of other 18-year-olds across the country who choose to act so dangerously at unchaperoned trips that they've made all 18-year-olds look bad. While you and your friends may feel strongly about having NO drinking, NO drugs, and NO sex, you have to remember that your friend's parents don't know you as well as you know yourself. It is an unfortunate fact that many teenagers deliberately give a false impression to parents while secretly doing dangerous things. And it is also an unfortunate fact that many teenagers who seem to have good judgement end up allowing their friends to influence them to the point where they do dangerous things that they'd never do on their own. So, you must remember that your friend's parents can't tell whether you all actually will be safe, or whether you are like the many teenagers around the country who seem like they'd act safe, but then end up acting foolishly. Don't be too mad at them for worrying about their daughter. Instead be frustrated with your peers who act in such a way that it gives them reason to worry.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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Something to consider -- their decision might be influenced by who is going on this trip. I know that my parents were much more likely to be lenient when I was with a friend that my parents trusted than one they didn't.
It's also possible that her parents have somehow been able to pick on your scorn and judgment of them, which could negatively color their opinion and trust of you.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by sylvrdragon: I never took the SATs or ACTs. I really wish I had, but my high school didn't really make a big deal of it, and so I just kinda... missed them. I didn't even know that it was a school independent thing until it was too late. So here I sit at age 25 and no college education (yet). I don't even know if it would be practical to try to take them now. I suspect I would have done pretty well.
My advice to you would be to find a good community college. Most community colleges do not require any SAT or ACT scores. You can do your general ed requirements, and even some work towards a major. Then you can transfer to to a university as a junior. Many four year universities comply with this, and some have especially good relationships with particular community colleges. (ie: Santa Monica College is number one in transfers to UC schools, especially UCLA.)
You'll also save a lot of money. Just make sure the credits are good, and that the school has a good reputation. The community college I am attending now is one of the best schools I've ever had association with, and is sooooo cheap. And don't let your age hinder you. I'm 26. I went to a university for four semesters, but then was out of school for four years or so. I was picking up classes part time until last semester, when I decided to just go for it.
I may be thirty when I get my degree, but I was going to turn thirty anyway. I might as well be better off when I do it. A lot of the actors in my sphere are doing the same thing. They are all near or past thirty, and going back to get their degrees./PSA
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
I second what porcelain girl said. When I started back to college I had taken a 12 year break. The community college did not require my SAT or ACT scores (I had taken both in high school, however). I did very well, and was accepted unconditionally by the four year college I transferred to and even got an academic scholarship from the four year university.
Now I'm a senior, on the downhill slope toward my degree. Community colleges are very affordable and offer classes scheduled at convenient times, plus a lot of online options. I took Saturday classes and online classes when I started back because I still had young kids at home and needed to be there with them.
Believe it or not, I'm not usually the oldest person in my classes, even at the four year university. And I'm older than porcelain girl, by a decent bit.
Go for it! Returning to college was one of the best decisions I've ever made.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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